2 tier pay system, easy 100 or not?

[soberups]

Yea, forget accidents. At least minor ones, no reason to make a big deal over it. One little mirror, one little tree and a drivers lapse in attention or judgement. If next time its a mail box, well, those are cheap, no big. After that, a scraped fender, who cares, and the guy probably has insurance anyway. And hey, if the follow up is a kid, well, he probably should not have been playing near the road anyway. Yea, lets save some money that can be put toward your pension and paycheck by removing the costs associated with a culture that take every traffic accident no matter how small seriously. Lets do that.

I think it is possible to take safety seriously without pissing away $700 on a $10 piece of glass.

Comparing a broken mirror to a dead child is just plain stupid, even by UPS management standards.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

How would you feel if those who came before you had made the same choice and left you stuck on the bottom tier?

Its called "screwing the unborn" and as far as I am concerned it is morally repugnant.

When I was hired I had no idea about the wage history of the drivers who came before me. All I knew is that I would be making x amount per hour and that it would take me x amount of years to get to what would be the top rate for me at the time. This is how it would work for new FT hires if a two-tiered wage structure was put in place.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I hate to be obvious, but "technically" a "two-tier" wage already exists. At least up this way. Part-timers are on the road on a daily basis. They do not get paid as much as a full-timer, but, they work full time hours consistently. I would consider this a two-tier wage system. But, what do I know?

...and these PTers run their areas and take care of the customer much the same as the FTers do...

As for your union meetings comment---I attended the pension rehabilitation and contract proposal meetings and found both to be productive---I do not attend the monthly meetings as they are usually a waste of time.

 

[bottomups]

A couple years ago, Mercury Marine went to a two-tiered wage scale in Fond Du Lac, WI. Management stated that they needed to bring labor costs down to remain competitive. They had threatened to move out of state unless the union had voted to accept their proposal. After two or three votes to ratify the contract it was finally accepted.
A couple months after ratification all upper management received a rather large increase in their compensation. Seems the little guy had to give in order to remain competitive but givebacks did not have to trickle up to the big guys. See the same thing happening here with the shareowners.

 

[brownmonster]

If there were no right to work states these companies wouldn't have reason to move.

 

[oldupsman]

Well sober, just goes to show how areas or times have changed. Heck I broke at least a dozen mirrors throughout the course of my career. If I would have called it in my center manager would have said, "Why are you telling me? Write it up in the DVIR." Heck, there were some nights I pulled in to the mechanics bay and get it replaced before I even got the car back to my center. I was in a major east coast hub with over 200 cars. Broken mirrors? That was just the cost of doing business.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Broken mirrors? That was just the cost of doing business.

It still is--I guess it just matters where you are.

 

[bobups3]

I was there back in 1982 when the first 2 tier scale was voted in with a signing bonus. All the old timers warned that once it was voted in it would never go away, and any part timer under the old contract would have a target on them, they were right ups could not get rid of higher paid part timers fast enough. 30 years later part timers still do not make crap. If you want to keep your driving job no to 2 tier.

 

[UPSGUY72]

UPSGUY apparently you and I are both 2 ignorant schmucks that seem to think alike.

No, you are just 2 guys who have not been paying attention. UPS has been trimming management compensation and management jobs for nearly 10 years. Try to keep up with current events.

They still have a long way to go...

 

[Catatonic]

You are in management and you want to talk to someone about ignorance???? NUFF SAID-Chuckle all you want I think after that being said I will have the last laugh.

I was talking about the accountability portion of your statement, you ignorant slut!

 

[soberups]

When I was hired I had no idea about the wage history of the drivers who came before me. All I knew is that I would be making x amount per hour and that it would take me x amount of years to get to what would be the top rate for me at the time. This is how it would work for new FT hires if a two-tiered wage structure was put in place.

Their wages were what they were because they negotiated contract(s) that did not include a two-tier wage system that you would be hired into.

As a new hire, once you completed whatever progression was in pace, you had the opportunity to make the same money that they did....because those who came before you didnt screw you over in the manner that you are so willing to do to future employees now.

The morally correct thing to do is to "pay it back" by paying it forward.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

...and these PTers run their areas and take care of the customer much the same as the FTers do...

As for your union meetings comment---I attended the pension rehabilitation and contract proposal meetings and found both to be productive---I do not attend the monthly meetings as they are usually a waste of time.

Perhaps that would change if more people got involved. I know you will never agree with me on this, nor will many others. It is a "catch-22" in my opinion. Like I said, I hope "your" pension is there when you want to retire. Remember what I said about getting involved when the well is dry though.

 

[HULKAMANIA]

I was talking about the accountability portion of your statement, you ignorant slut!

Ignorant slut huh? Ok what other jobs in UPS are people held to the same accountablity standards as a driver? Management can go take a "dump" for 30 minutes do they have to account for that time they were doing nothing? Was I saying that management is NEVER accountable for anything? No I was simply making a comparison between the two and if you cant see the differences then that pretty much sums up who is ignorant.

 

[brownIEman]

I think it is possible to take safety seriously without pissing away $700 on a $10 piece of glass.

I agree. However, you cannot just leave it at use your best judgement when dealing with an organization the size of ours. You have to develop policies and procedures and adjust them occasionally as trends warrant. Ironically, the policies must be made tighter and with less individual latitude for front line management the more you cut the front line management numbers and compensation. This is due to the fact they will not have the time, experience or training to take the actions that will stay in line consistently with the high levels of accountability and conduct you need throughout the entire organization.

Comparing a broken mirror to a dead child is just plain stupid, even by UPS management standards.

I would agree with this statement as well. I would certainly hope none of my partners would be stupid enough to compare a broken mirror to a dead child. I am sure you are smart enough as a professional driver however, to understand that a lapse in attention when driving a vehicle could in one instance lead to nothing more than a broken mirror. That same lapse in attention could in another case lead to a dead child.

 

[brownIEman]

They still have a long way to go...

The board seems to agree with you. And with each draw down, there is less ability to adjust plans by the front line management. Control is more and more centralized, which means the decisions about things such as stops per car get farther and farther away from the drivers. You are getting your wish. I am just surprised so many drivers do not seem to be happy about the results.

 

[Inthegame]

...and these PTers run their areas and take care of the customer much the same as the FTers do...

As for your union meetings comment---I attended the pension rehabilitation and contract proposal meetings and found both to be productive---I do not attend the monthly meetings as they are usually a waste of time.

Right because we all know the accurate information is on BC. How do you think your pension will be rehabilitated under a two tier system? Or do you figure benny contribution rates will remain at the top rate?

 

[soberups]

I agree. However, you cannot just leave it at use your best judgement when dealing with an organization the size of ours. You have to develop policies and procedures and adjust them occasionally as trends warrant. Ironically, the policies must be made tighter and with less individual latitude for front line management the more you cut the front line management numbers and compensation. This is due to the fact they will not have the time, experience or training to take the actions that will stay in line consistently with the high levels of accountability and conduct you need throughout the entire organization.


.

The topic of this thread is the perceived need to implement a two-tier wage system (which in reality is a cleverly disguised pay cut) in order to control costs.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company makes business decisions such as spending $700 worth of OT and management time on a $10 cracked mirror.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company makes business decisions such as sending supervisors out to spend an entire day spying on drivers for no purpose other than to generate their weekly quota of warning letters for transgressions such as failing to honk a horn at each stop, failing to keep hands at the 10 and 2 while navigating a parking lot, etc etc etc.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company makes business decisions such as installing $800 worth of Telematics equipment in 30 yr old package cars that wind up getting crushed 6 weeks later.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company continues to support a bloated, top heavy, incompetent, paranoid, metrics-obsessed layer of upper management that runs the business into the ground while refusing to allow local supervisors to make even the most basic operational decisions.

Cut all the fat out and get your own house in order before you start crying poor and begging us to take reductions in compensation. We are the ones doing the work, not you, and there is a limit to the amount of management deadweight we can continue to carry on our backs.

 

[soberups]

The board seems to agree with you. And with each draw down, there is less ability to adjust plans by the front line management. Control is more and more centralized, which means the decisions about things such as stops per car get farther and farther away from the drivers. You are getting your wish. I am just surprised so many drivers do not seem to be happy about the results.

This is not a staffing issue, it is a control issue.

You are paying $80K a year to a "center manager" who isnt even allowed to make a decision. If all you are going to allow him to do is be a glorified clerk, then pay him accordingly.

 

[brownIEman]

The topic of this thread is the perceived need to implement a two-tier wage system (which in reality is a cleverly disguised pay cut) in order to control costs.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company makes business decisions such as spending $700 worth of OT and management time on a $10 cracked mirror.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company makes business decisions such as sending supervisors out to spend an entire day spying on drivers for no purpose other than to generate their weekly quota of warning letters for transgressions such as failing to honk a horn at each stop, failing to keep hands at the 10 and 2 while navigating a parking lot, etc etc etc.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company makes business decisions such as installing $800 worth of Telematics equipment in 30 yr old package cars that wind up getting crushed 6 weeks later.

You cannot run a mult-ibillion dollar company in a vacuum based on single incidents. How many fewer mirrors are being broken since your division or district started to give a crap at all about them? If it is 80 fewer across the district, guess what? The money spent on this instance is paid for and the rest are gravy.

How much money is telematics saving the company? $800 is chump change compared to being able to pull up a report, print it, and ask a driver why it took him 20 minutes to get from one stop to the next when they are less than 1/4 mile apart and he was not on break or lunch? I know that you know that cannot be used for discipline. Does not need to be. Just asking the question has the effect of reducing over allowed to the tune of thousands of dollars a day across divisions. Seen it happen. Be indignant all you want, does not change that fact.

I am not interested in even discussing any sort of pay cut as long as this company continues to support a bloated, top heavy, incompetent, paranoid, metrics-obsessed layer of upper management that runs the business into the ground while refusing to allow local supervisors to make even the most basic operational decisions.

This company being run by incompetent upper management is making money hand over fist by following a simple business model. Pay our backbone, our service providers, more than anyone in this industry, and then beat them like a red headed step child to get more than our monies worth out of them. I can assure you, until you are willing to discuss controlling that largest of costs, these paranoid, metrics-obsessed upper management will not be interested in even discussing strengthening of 9.5 language, reducing management OJS and production initiatives (what you would call harassment), reducing SPC, etc

Cut all the fat out and get your own house in order before you start crying poor and begging us to take reductions in compensation. We are the ones doing the work, not you, and there is a limit to the amount of management deadweight we can continue to carry on our backs.

I don't blame you, I would feel the same way.

The fat has been and is being cut. Years ago management was moved off of the same golden health plan you enjoy, vacations now accrue throughout the year instead of all earned at the start, 1800 positions cut, peak season bonus eliminated for future partners, defined benefit pension eliminated for partners since 2008, new compensation structures that eliminates raises for many.All in the name of reducing costs to stay competitive.

FedEx still routinely is able to undercut our prices, and those customers who do leave us, overwhelmingly tell us it is due to price.

If you are good with the status quo, from a financial perspective, everything is working right now so there really is no need to discuss anything. But what happens when Fedex ground grows enough that they begin to enjoy a stop density that is on par with UPS? Then their production starts to have parity with us, but their major costs are way, way less? May never happen, or by the time it does, it may be too late.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Right because we all know the accurate information is on BC. How do you think your pension will be rehabilitated under a two tier system? Or do you figure benny contribution rates will remain at the top rate?

Pension contributions will not be affected if and when a two tiered wage structure is implemented.