8 and 5 key discipline

[UnconTROLLed]

Sadly it's a game that the house will always win.

I suppose but don't see the point of them at all.

for ex:

WELDM ok how is this going to help me as i'm walking over 15 empty forever bags because egress is blocked? if anything it might get me injured as I try to figure out in my head what the **** it stands for, get distracted, slip slide and fall.

 

[UPSNewbie]

I suppose but don't see the point of them at all.

for ex:

WELDM ok how is this going to help me as i'm walking over 15 empty forever bags because egress is blocked? if anything it might get me injured as I try to figure out in my head what the **** it stands for, get distracted, slip slide and fall.

I think it was you and I who talked about this, but egress is fu**ed at my old center. Small sorts is not big enough, so once the chutes get full for sorting, unload is told to hold bags. Those bags go on the belt from the trailer and SPA pulls them and puts them right next to the belt, blocking all foot traffic. When I got injured inside the trailer, I couldn't get out safely because there was a pile of bags up to my gut. That's almost four feet. These words DO NOT equal action when it's interfering with managements instructions.

Had I been less green and knew what I now know, I would have filed with OSHA.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

I think it was you and I who talked about this, but egress is fu**ed at my old center. Small sorts is not big enough, so once the chutes get full for sorting, unload is told to hold bags. Those bags go on the belt from the trailer and SPA pulls them and puts them right next to the belt, blocking all foot traffic. When I got injured inside the trailer, I couldn't get out safely because there was a pile of bags up to my gut. That's almost four feet. These words DO NOT equal action when it's interfering with managements instructions.

Had I been less green and knew what I now know, I would have filed with OSHA.

Oh yeah, and the same thing goes on everywhere too...

when the belts are shut down in our hub (or even the smaller centers ive worked), you end up stacking on the aisle as much as you can and management is still giving the "GO GO GO " to the underloaders...it's an asinine and dangerous game...stacks of boxes above your head and no egress at all, it's really sad when you think about it, what a dangerous situation it really COULD be and how injuries really happen.

 

[hurricanegunner]

Good point. Funny they can't stick with the same acronym for more than 2-3 years without trying something new ( and more difficult to remember). It's almost a game.

You're right; it is a game. The reason they come up with this nonsense is so that no matter what happens: they can stand before OSHA blameless, and it's the driver's fault, no matter what. At some point during whatever happened, the driver failed to do something. He or she failed to do this, failed to do that, failed to avoid this, failed to notice that, etc. They do not care about safety. They only care about exonerating themselves and blaming the drivers. For everything.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

You're right; it is a game. The reason they come up with this nonsense is so that no matter what happens: they can stand before OSHA blameless, and it's the driver's fault, no matter what. At some point during whatever happened, the driver failed to do something. He or she failed to do this, failed to do that, failed to avoid this, failed to notice that, etc. They do not care about safety. They only care about exonerating themselves and blaming the drivers. For everything.

I agree, and it's not only driving, as I'm sure you know.

pretty much every job I have worked at UPS, it's the same old story. driving, cu counter, loading, unloading, sort aisle, preload, small sort, ecs, decap, pas clerk, veh positioner, everything. If you are injured or in an accident, there is always some weak excuse UPS can pin you or I with blame that in reality (sometimes, not always obviously) is a cheap way to weasel out of their own accountability.

 

[LightsOut]

We have had this issue here at Addison and the answer is if they threaten your job file a grievance under article 37.

The grievance wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, or the lead from the pencil you wasted. There is positively no issue with requiring you to memorize safety questions. You'd lose that battle every single time, and any steward worth his weight wouldn't go down that path.

Even if you get your safety questions right, go see a steward and file under article 37 which states:

Why?

Article 37
Management-Employee Relations
Section 1.
(a) The parties agree that the principle of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay shall be observed at all
times and employees shall perform their duties in a manner that best represents the Employer's interest.
The Employer shall not in any way intimidate, harass, coerce or overly supervise any employee in the
performance of his or her duties. The Employer will treat employees with dignity and respect at all
times, which shall include, but not be limited to, giving due consideration to the age and physical
condition of the employee. Employees will also treat each other as well as the Employer with dignity and respect.
It is not in our contract we have to memorize this stuff. Don't get me wrong it is very good to know this stuff because it will keep you safe and I encourage everyone here to try to there best to know these, but to blatantly threaten an employee that is a condition of employment to get there Ketter numbers up is just wrong.

Which portion of the above is relevant to your hypothetical grievance?

I am in agreement there. The problem I have is that management in our building HAS BEEN HARRASSING employees by
(1) giving these at least once a week to people that do not know them

This is not harassment, that's follow up and supervision. If you failed them last week, any supervisor or manager would not be doing his job if he let it go for months at a time. When I was in the situation I followed up almost daily, and my team eventually got it down cold.

(2) requiring the employee TO WORK SIMULTANEOUSLY during these interviews as to not disrupt the operations

Nonsense. Unless you have no problem with your supervisor enforcing a no-talking policy throughout your work period, don't suggest that you can't answer a few questions while working. Even so, if you legitimately feel that you're putting yourself in danger you could pause for the 60 seconds it take to answer these questions, and then carry on.

 

[bigblu 2 you]

expect the unexpected , translation, if a meteor falls from the sky and crashes in front of you causing you to wreck,"it's your fault" you should have expected that to happen. just one of the GREAT 8 and FAB 5 that make you at fault no matter how much you know and try.

 

[LightsOut]

Bigblu, That's hateful and without merit.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

No, it's just immature and was posted without much thought.

 

[bigblu 2 you]

dont judge without explanation. first,i'm all for using methods and knowing them.i'm all for making ups a better place to work.i even want my sup's and center manager to live long and prosper,but a driver i know was driving down a steep hill slowly,then into a curve when a family of 5 in a van was on his side of the road meeting him head on.he swerved to miss the vehicle landing it in a ditch on its side.after investigation the "team"told him he should have not left the lane, should have applied the brake stayed in lane and let the oncoming vehicle make the decsion,whatever it may be.end of story,the driver was charged will avoidable.im sorry for my immaturity.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

dont judge without explanation. first,i'm all for using methods and knowing them.i'm all for making ups a better place to work.i even want my sup's and center manager to live long and prosper,but a driver i know was driving down a steep hill slowly,then into a curve when a family of 5 in a van was on his side of the road meeting him head on.he swerved to miss the vehicle landing it in a ditch on its side.after investigation the "team"told him he should have not left the lane, should have applied the brake stayed in lane and let the oncoming vehicle make the decsion,whatever it may be.end of story,the driver was charged will avoidable.im sorry for my immaturity.

This had nothing to do with your stupid meteor story. Had you posted this in the first place you would not have received so much grief.

 

[soberups]

Bigblu, That's hateful and without merit.

Actually, its a pretty accurate.

The entire safety program (8 and 5, safety committees, 10 pt commentary etc.) was designed by lawyers to shield UPS from liability, NOT to shield employees from injury.

An authentic safety program would address issues such as; overcrowded work areas, poorly designed facilities, ergonomically deficient vehicles, and unrealistic time standards and production quotas for the work being done.

UPS chooses to conveniently overlook these critical issues and instead focus upon playing word games and memorizing acronyms in order to create the illusion that our safety as employees somehow matters.

 

[LightsOut]

Actually, its a pretty accurate.
The entire safety program (8 and 5, safety committees, 10 pt commentary etc.) was designed by lawyers to shield UPS from liability, NOT to shield employees from injury.

The ends remain the same -- less injuries -- regardless of your moral judgment on the means. The safety methods are an extremely cost-effective way of reducing the number of injuries in and out of the building, and the results of UPS's push for safety have cut the number of lost time injuries by a significant portion. You can certainly argue morals, but you can't argue numbers and results. The "word games" you cite are part of a program that HAVE reduced injuries throughout the country.

An authentic safety program would address issues such as; overcrowded work areas,

Address your supervisor if you find an overcrowded work area, that's what they are there for. I've been in more than a couple of hubs and have never seen one that I would define as "overcrowded" and these were in major metropolitan areas, still though, the circumstances could be different where you work.

I have to confess I find it interesting that on a board where I hear constant complaints about management trying to get employees off the clock, there is a member who claims certain work areas are shoulder to shoulder with hourlies.

poorly designed facilities, ergonomically deficient vehicles,

These are huge financial undertakings that the company has begun to address. There are new hubs being built with modern equipment, and there are constant renovations going on in most buildings. Take a walk around the building around noon, and look at the repairs and modifications being done, you might be surprised.

unrealistic time standards and production quotas for the work being done.

If they were unrealistic then they would be unobtainable -- but they are obtainable and you know it. I'm assuming you work or have worked for the company and "smashed the number" more than once in your life. UPS wants your BEST every day, you should expect this from yourself as well.

UPS chooses to conveniently overlook these critical issues and instead focus upon playing word games and memorizing acronyms in order to create the illusion that our safety as employees somehow matters.

Stay safe, and God bless.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

The ends remain the same -- less injuries -- regardless of your moral judgment on the means. The safety methods are an extremely cost-effective way of reducing the number of injuries in and out of the building, and the results of UPS's push for safety have cut the number of lost time injuries by a significant portion. You can certainly argue morals, but you can't argue numbers and results. The "word games" you cite are part of a program that HAVE reduced injuries throughout the country.

You're married to an idea, or just being disagreable, and are simply trying anything to use any data possible you can find to verify it instead of actually admitting that the acronym method probably had/has little impact all.. IF REAL SAFETY ISSUES WERE ADDRESSED the work injuries would clearly be lower than the "significant portion" you're mentioning, but that is the unknown as UPS fails to address anything important.

Address your supervisor if you find an overcrowded work area, that's what they are there for. I've been in more than a couple of hubs and have never seen one that I would define as "overcrowded" and these were in major metropolitan areas, still though, the circumstances could be different where you work.

Oh, they are. Believe me- overcrowded is not the right word in my eyes. I am not talking about overcrowded with workers , as much as I'm talking about the machines, equipment, and of course the work. In some work areas you can barely move and this is a safety concern as well.

I have to confess I find it interesting that on a board where I hear constant complaints about management trying to get employees off the clock, there is a member who claims certain work areas are shoulder to shoulder with hourlies.

Read the above. And also, what does this have to do with anything except validate what you were reading into the question? If you're shoulder to shoulder with employees, then obviously they're trying to get the work done and "make numbers" and get you out before your 3.5 or 8 hours respectively.

These are huge financial undertakings that the company has begun to address. There are new hubs being built with modern equipment, and there are constant renovations going on in most buildings. Take a walk around the building around noon, and look at the repairs and modifications being done, you might be surprised.

In our large hub with thousands of employees, we run 24/7 and there are little to no modifications being done at all, ever. It's old, broken, and unsafe and there are next to never moments when problems are being addresssed. And this is where the majority of employees are working in the U.S. (larger buildings). 80% nationwide (at least INSIDE) work in a 24/7 hub where it needs the MOST upgrades, I'd guess? So what good does improvements and mods done in small centers do for injuries and unsafe practice "for the numbers"? Very little except the minority.

If they were unrealistic then they would be unobtainable -- but they are obtainable and you know it. I'm assuming you work or have worked for the company and "smashed the number" more than once in your life. UPS wants your BEST every day, you should expect this from yourself as well.

They are obtainable if you want to go 15 and out and not be able to walk at 60. You know it as well as I do.


Stay safe, and God bless.

This is all well and good, but not one thing you said here is obtainable or reasonable (ironic, ain't it?)

 

[705red]

You're right; it is a game. The reason they come up with this nonsense is so that no matter what happens: they can stand before OSHA blameless, and it's the driver's fault, no matter what. At some point during whatever happened, the driver failed to do something. He or she failed to do this, failed to do that, failed to avoid this, failed to notice that, etc. They do not care about safety. They only care about exonerating themselves and blaming the drivers. For everything.

I filed an OSHA complaint for the egress being blocked last night and for them continuously on a nightly basis stacking on the floor grading blocking the sorters from existing the work area safely in case of an emergency. I also included that the belts are moving to fast for the loaders to keep up which causes the packages to fall off of the belt and stack up at the entrance of the trailers.

An OSHA rep just called me back and I explained how UPS has been having all the employees sign this egress form saying that they maintain at least 18 inches of clearance yet the sups force them to stack out nightly. I explained that the proper way to handle this would be to turn the belts off for a few minutes until it was SAFE to continue working.

OSHA is now sending UPS a letter of complaint with my name attached to it to UPS and Ups has 5 business days to address it.

Now if the manager last night would have addressed it when i approached him on it immediately this would not have had to happen. I do not play with the employees safety and I expect UPS managers not to either.

 

[Solidarity413]

I filed an OSHA complaint for the egress being blocked last night and for them continuously on a nightly basis stacking on the floor grading blocking the sorters from existing the work area safely in case of an emergency. I also included that the belts are moving to fast for the loaders to keep up which causes the packages to fall off of the belt and stack up at the entrance of the trailers.

An OSHA rep just called me back and I explained how UPS has been having all the employees sign this egress form saying that they maintain at least 18 inches of clearance yet the sups force them to stack out nightly. I explained that the proper way to handle this would be to turn the belts off for a few minutes until it was SAFE to continue working.

OSHA is now sending UPS a letter of complaint with my name attached to it to UPS and Ups has 5 business days to address it.

Now if the manager last night would have addressed it when i approached him on it immediately this would not have had to happen. I do not play with the employees safety and I expect UPS managers not to either.

Nice job red! You work out of CACH?

 

[705red]

Nice job red! You work out of CACH?

Im out of Palatine UPS.

 

[silenze]

Your name wont be on it. OSHA keeps it confidential.

 

[silenze]

In my center we have a thing called D DAY which is June 1st
If you are not able to recite the 8-5 keys and get them 100% you will get a warning letter etc..
They are saying that knowing and being able to recite them is a job requirement.
They have written it down in our employee record as well.

 

[soberups]

Address your supervisor if you find an overcrowded work area, that's what they are there for. I've been in more than a couple of hubs and have never seen one that I would define as "overcrowded" and these were in major metropolitan areas, still though, the circumstances could be different where you work.

I work in a facility that opened in 1986. It was overcrowded and functionally obsolete before they even started building it. It was designed to park a maximum of 124 routes and we currently dispatch close to 200. Perhaps you should get around more.

I have to confess I find it interesting that on a board where I hear constant complaints about management trying to get employees off the clock, there is a member who claims certain work areas are shoulder to shoulder with hourlies.

The MDU where my truck is loaded has chronic egress issues. There are no stack tables, and it is understaffed. The belt jams up because the company tries to force more volume in there than can possibly be contained or loaded.



If they were unrealistic then they would be unobtainable -- but they are obtainable and you know it. I'm assuming you work or have worked for the company and "smashed the number" more than once in your life. UPS wants your BEST every day, you should expect this from yourself as well.

Yes they are attainable...as long as you are willing to work off of the clock, violate the speed limit, and take unsafe shortcuts. They are not attainable....at least in this universe....if one works safely and employs correct methods. It might not seem that way from behind a desk, but out here in the real world the "numbers" are all too frequently nothing more than the wet dream of an IE guy who has been hitting the crack pipe a bit too hard.



Stay safe, and God bless.

I will stay safe....in spite of equipment, facilities and expectations that place safety last instead of first.