A question about the FedEx vs UPS drama

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
The whole point of all of this is FedEx is afraid their employees will unionize and they will have to pay them more. We are paid more than FedEx employees but our company remains profitable because we are more productive.

Is FedEx afraid to ask more of their employees or do they just believe them to be incapable of working as productively as UPS employees.

I for one am glad to work at a company that pays me more and might expect a little more in return. I can handle it, just show me the money.

Good points. Points that the general public and especially those in congress need to see. Isn't if funny how UPS and FedEx Express's rates are always comparable even though FedEx has their special little RLA law and UPS doesn't? That is something to ponder.
 

mungrin

Banned
Good points. Points that the general public and especially those in congress need to see. Isn't if funny how UPS and FedEx Express's rates are always comparable even though FedEx has their special little RLA law and UPS doesn't? That is something to ponder.
They always claim its the gas prices that affect thier rates but thats BS
 
M

Mike23

Guest
Ups doesn't make TV shows or Movies with the UPS brand in to protect the brand. That another thing UPS has above the competiton.

I know FedEx tries to come up with clever marketing stratigies because they can't provide the Quality of service that UPS does.

Actually we were in 'Yes Man' and even had a line. It's when Jim Carry's flying down the road on a motorcycle in a hospital gown he goes side by side with a UPS car for a bit and the driver looks over and says something like, 'how's it goin'?' and Jim goes, 'Oh, can't complain'. It's pretty funny :D

We also have regular UPS vehicles in backgrounds of movies as well as 'UPS employees' delivering packages.
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
Actually we were in 'Yes Man' and even had a line. It's when Jim Carry's flying down the road on a motorcycle in a hospital gown he goes side by side with a UPS car for a bit and the driver looks over and says something like, 'how's it goin'?' and Jim goes, 'Oh, can't complain'. It's pretty funny :D

We also have regular UPS vehicles in backgrounds of movies as well as 'UPS employees' delivering packages.


"George of the Jungle"!!!!
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Cast Away was a stupid movie.A movie about Fedex,how dumb.Even Fred S threw himself in thier ive heard.

Yes, Smith made a cameo. I don't think it was a great movie, but the Tom Hanks character is a perfect portrayal of a FedEx born-again Kool-Aid drinker....totally dedicated to FedEx all the time. No life, just FedEx.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
That's fairly common knowledge and that tactic could have reverse impact if Freddie tried it.

Of greater interest is the fact that Fred and McCann are butt buddies ... wait till that gets out! :surprised:

I can hardly wait until the National Enquirer comes out this week. Perhaps they have shared more than a foxhole.
 

Livin the Dream?

Disillusioned UPSer
It is the free market. Whatever FedEx is paying the employees per hour is enough, because supply of employees exceeds demand.

It is called capitalism. If employees dry up, then Fedex (anyone) has to raise the starting wage to attract employees. Supply & demand. What built America.

Unless you like socialism, which worked so well in the Eastern Bloc, Soviet Union, Bethlehem Steel, Eastern Airlines, and UPS.
 

Re-Raise

Well-Known Member
It is the free market. Whatever FedEx is paying the employees per hour is enough, because supply of employers exceeds demands.


You also get what you pay for. We are in a service industry, and the quality of employee that we get for the hourly wage UPS pays ensures that service. If they paid less they wouldn't have people like me working for them.

I suppose we could pay our employees less and pay a higher dividend, or maybe some bigger management bonuses. As a stock holder I prefer the money be spent on the people moving the packages to their destination.
 

Livin the Dream?

Disillusioned UPSer
You also get what you pay for. We are in a service industry, and the quality of employee that we get for the hourly wage UPS pays ensures that service. If they paid less they wouldn't have people like me working for them.

I suppose we could pay our employees less and pay a higher dividend, or maybe some bigger management bonuses. As a stock holder I prefer the money be spent on the people moving the packages to their destination.

...which UPS starts at $8.50 per hour unloading boxes.....don't get me started there, because we all know that is a taboo subject....
 

Re-Raise

Well-Known Member
...which UPS starts at $8.50 per hour unloading boxes.....don't get me started there, because we all know that is a taboo subject....

That is not enough and we suffer, and service suffers, because of it.

The only reasons we are able to retain quality part-timers are insurance and the carrot of full-time pay that we hang in front of them.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
It is the free market. Whatever FedEx is paying the employees per hour is enough, because supply of employees exceeds demand.

It is called capitalism. If employees dry up, then Fedex (anyone) has to raise the starting wage to attract employees. Supply & demand. What built America.

Unless you like socialism, which worked so well in the Eastern Bloc, Soviet Union, Bethlehem Steel, Eastern Airlines, and UPS.

I'm all in favor of the free market system but it's companies like FedEx and people like Fred S that bring it down. Ole Fred can't give his employees raises but he can purchase a sports team? Hmmmmmm........
Thank God he doesn't represent the majority of the free market system.
 

Livin the Dream?

Disillusioned UPSer
I'm all in favor of the free market system but it's companies like FedEx and people like Fred S that bring it down. Ole Fred can't give his employees raises but he can purchase a sports team? Hmmmmmm........
Thank God he doesn't represent the majority of the free market system.

On the contrary - it is perhaps a perfect example of clear capitalism at work; play by the existing rules, have all employee positions filled, and have money left over.

Contrary to popular belief, the main reason for a business to operate is to make the most return on investment for the owner(s) / shareholders. EVERYTHING else is secondary. Being fair to employees is a footnote - rather, being fair to employees, if it helps the bottom line, becomes an issue. In a Union shop, being fair to employees means nothing, and does nothing for the bottom line. It is free-market canceled - pay is set in a little book based on time elapsed.

In the real world, the fair pay rate is very easy to determine - whatever number that brings in enough employees to fill all the positions. FedEx has found that number. It is truly "if you don't like it, leave, we'll take the next person in line", which truly is the way a business should be run.

In an economy such as what we are in now, pay for employees should stay stagnant, even decrease. This is a fact, not an opinion. There are far more people looking for jobs than jobs available. Supply & demand.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
It is the free market. Whatever FedEx is paying the employees per hour is enough, because supply of employees exceeds demand.

It is called capitalism. If employees dry up, then Fedex (anyone) has to raise the starting wage to attract employees. Supply & demand. What built America.

Unless you like socialism, which worked so well in the Eastern Bloc, Soviet Union, Bethlehem Steel, Eastern Airlines, and UPS.

I absolutely agree with you about the free market system. People should get paid what the market will bear which includes their perception of quality and value.

Its not a perfect system, but it has proven superior to the other ideologies.

On the other hand, our system also expects that laws and regulations will be followed. Just because their is demand, one cannot shortcut the system.

For instance, Food and Drug laws must be followed. Regulations regarding environmental impacts must be adhered to. And there are also laws regarding employee classifications.

Different than the RLA issue where FedEx is properly following a bad law, many believe that they are violating an existing regulation by mis-classifying employees as independent contractors.

Below is some information on employees vs. contractors.

To me, a FedEx ground driver looks like an employee.

P-Man

The IRS says that the determinaiton is made based on the following factors of control:

Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?

Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)

Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

Factors that allow one to be an independent contractor are:
If the worker supplies his or her own equipment, materials and tools
If all necessary materials are not supplied by the employer
If the worker can be discharged at anytime and can choose whether or not to come to work without fear of losing employment
If the worker control the hours of employment thus indicating they are acting as an independent contractor
Whether the work is temporary or permanent

Outside of the Fair Labor Standards Act, courts ask the following questions to determine work relationship in addition to both an economic and an agency test:
  • What is the degree of control over work and who exercises that control?
  • What is each party's level of loss in the relationship?
  • Who has paid for materials, supplies and/or equipment?
  • What type of skill is required for work?
  • Is there a degree of permanence?
  • Is the worker an integral part of the business?
 

Livin the Dream?

Disillusioned UPSer
I absolutely agree with you about the free market system. People should get paid what the market will bear which includes their perception of quality and value.

Its not a perfect system, but it has proven superior to the other ideologies.

On the other hand, our system also expects that laws and regulations will be followed. Just because their is demand, one cannot shortcut the system.

For instance, Food and Drug laws must be followed. Regulations regarding environmental impacts must be adhered to. And there are also laws regarding employee classifications.

Different than the RLA issue where FedEx is properly following a bad law, many believe that they are violating an existing regulation by mis-classifying employees as independent contractors.

Below is some information on employees vs. contractors.

To me, a FedEx ground driver looks like an employee.

P-Man

We are in complete agreement - perhaps more than you know; I'll explain what I mean...

You state "...To me, a FedEx ground driver looks like an employee...". I respect that opinion, although, to me, they qualify as ICs. And therein lies the rub - no matter how well written a law is, how it is followed is determined by its' interpretation. FedEx believes they have interpreted it in a way that they are doing no wrong. UPS / Teamsters made a stink because they interpreted the written law differently.

This is what the Supreme Court was made for. FedEx is not flagrantly breaking the law and hoping they don't get in trouble - they are following the law to the letter as they interpret it. This is why UPS is pushing new legislation, because the existing laws allow what is being done at FedEx.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
We are in complete agreement - perhaps more than you know; I'll explain what I mean...

You state "...To me, a FedEx ground driver looks like an employee...". I respect that opinion, although, to me, they qualify as ICs. And therein lies the rub - no matter how well written a law is, how it is followed is determined by its' interpretation. FedEx believes they have interpreted it in a way that they are doing no wrong. UPS / Teamsters made a stink because they interpreted the written law differently.

This is what the Supreme Court was made for. FedEx is not flagrantly breaking the law and hoping they don't get in trouble - they are following the law to the letter as they interpret it. This is why UPS is pushing new legislation, because the existing laws allow what is being done at FedEx.

LTD:

As far as I understand, the RLA legislation does not affect the IC issue....

As you say, FedEx is interpreting the IRS code to say that their ground drivers are independent contractors. I agree with you that they are reading this imperfect regulation as they think is right and best for them.

There are many lawsuits challenging this interpretation. Just like the UPS supervisor that just won an award. UPS interpreted the law as they thought best and in this case, lost. These IC's are saying that they are not IC's but employees.

FedEx has won some cases, but more are pending. The RLA law will not change this as far as I know.

The RLA issue and the IC issue are two seperate matters.

At least this is how I understand it.

P-Man
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
OK, "Free Marketeers". What about brillant capitalists who manipulate the "flawless" Free Market system in order to give themselves an advantage over the competition? Lobbyists, political donations and payoffs all come immediately to mind, as does one particular individual. Shouldn't the Free Market take care of the need for happy crap like this? Sorry, it doesn't.

Oh yes, and what about the most revered Free Marketeer in recent history, who did his best to eliminate unions and give big business every opportunity possible to keep wages low? That would be Ronaldus Magnus, as that other champion of the Free Market (Rush Limbaugh) calls his personal "God". Not exactly fair or "free", huh?

In a truly Free Market, shouldn't employees also have the right to maximize their personal profit, rather than see all of the advantages and loopholes go to the rich and their corporations?

Turn off FOX News for awhile and read a book about economics not written by some Right-Wing apologist trying to protect his upper class buddies.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
just a quick note on the ic question. in the estrada case in califonia the judge went out of his way to point out that in ruling in favor of the plaintiffs he was not making a statement on whether the employee or contractor was the better model. only that the operating agreement was too vague and gave the company too much control. therefore, fedex has and the court upheld it's right to revise the operating agreement to accomodate the courts ruling. when plaintiffs objected, the court denied the objection insinuating that plaintiff could not have it both ways; that is to say just because the oa was flawed in its original form did not mean that fedex would have to follow an employee model.
 
Top