Accountability

[menotyou]

unsafe order equates to an unlawful order.

Then one should call the police right then and there?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

unsafe order equates to an unlawful order.

Then one should call the police right then and there?

Give me a break.

Washing windshields did not appear to exceed the limitations imposed on the injured employee. It was only when he went to go from one PC to another in the dimly lit building that he slipped on the oily floor and injured his other knee.

The center manager should be held accountable for the inadequate lighting and slippery floors.

 

[menotyou]

My point was that it is very easy to sit here Monday morningish telling people not to fear for their jobs and stand up to a manager and defy an order. I wasn't being specific to this person. If you are alone with the center manager and they give you an order to work unsafe, what do you do? Are you telling me center manager's never lie? What is your recourse? I don't think I am being out of line. Are you telling me that you can afford to be out of work for an extended period while you fight for your job back? Not many people can. As far as my post, I would like an answer from a manager on how they think an employee should react.

 

[Nimnim]

unsafe order equates to an unlawful order.

Then one should call the police right then and there?

Unsafe does not equate to unlawful. Telling someone to say, climb over a bunch of packages on a moving belt to break a jam further up is unsafe, but is not unlawful.

Telling a driver who just scraped against a car with their own package car to leave and not say anything is unlawful, but not unsafe if there was no one in said car.


I'm willing to agree with Upstate here to some extent, the slippery floor is the problem, not so much the wiping of the windshields. There could be an issue with the employee having to climb the couple steps in and out of package cars repeatedly, but the slippery floor was the real culprit. Doesn't negate the center manager is responsible for this though.

 

[menotyou]

Doesn't answer the question. What do you do when you are ordered to work unsafe?

 

[soberups]

why does the oil require require a grievance? seems like a carwasher/responder and some kitty litter should be able to clean up any oil spills.

Did the safety committe come up with any solutions to the oil issue?

Applying kitty litter to spills costs time and money. Both the preload and the carwash are expected to meet a certain production metric, and attaining that metric will always be more important than some abstract concept like safety.

And as far as the "safety committee" coming up with a solution.....you can forget about anything like that ever happening. The issue will be discussed in meetings for a few years, and at the end of that exhaustive process they will roll out a brand new Avoiding Slips and Falls acronym for the work group to memorize and recite on cue.
They will color some posters, and distribute some flyers, and if you are a good boy they will give you a cookie. But the oil and water will still be on the floor.

 

[dannyboy]

They did have such a meeting with the steward and management. And that is when the driver was told to obey the instructions of the manager until the grievance was heard. This is also addressed in the contract and the driver and steward were following the language. There is no provision allowing the driver to refuse an instruction from the center manager.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Now, would you care to elaborate what happens when an employee that has been given instructions and a task while on TAW, refuses to work as instructed? What fall out is there Tie? As for the return to the doctor, that is not the answer.

As far as the rest of the Monday morning armchairs, wanna know how the panel has ruled on similar cases where the employee refused a direct order from the center manager?

Did the center manager give him any kind of instructions such as take your time, sit as often as you need to etc.

Tie, you are so funny......Next you will ask if the center manager offered to buy breakfast and coffee. You are kidding, right? Sit as often as needed?????LOL

Did the actual TAW assignment cause him any discomfort or is this really an issue of an unsafe work environment causing him to slip and hurt himself?

Lets see, what is the physical difference between climbing in and out of package cars to clean the windows and making deliveries? You ever climbed into a package car with a brace on your left knee? One that does not allow any movement of the knee joint? What happens to that knee trying to get up and down, not to mention maneuver inside a package car. Think that is very comfortable? Why would the doctor specify no stairs or climbing, and very minimal walking, but yet the company ignore the doctors orders? You think it was about comfort? Can we say additional injury?

As to the environment, yes, it was a contributing factor. But a normal driver would have had a three point stance while exiting the vehicle. A healthy driver would have had the capability to compensate for the right foot slipping out from under him by having both the left foot and hand on the rail. This driver only had one means of support once the right foot slipped, his hand on the rail. And during the fall, his grip was broken.

why does the oil require require a grievance? seems like a carwasher/responder and some kitty litter should be able to clean up any oil spills.

Maybe in your world it works that way. But not in other places. While Sober's sarcasm detracts from his post, there is a ton of truth there. There was no action on safety committee requests for improvements to the problem. Of course, they made symbolic gestures with the mechanics to try and stop the leakage, and on occasion had part time personnel scatter the oil dry on the floor. But then that created a mess for the cleaning crew, and we dont want that now do we? So that lasted a few days, then back to doing nothing about it.

Did the safety committee come up with any solutions to the oil issue?

After the grievance was pushed the hourly committee cochair took it upon himself to put out the oil dry. AT that time, the safety committee had the authority to take care of issues on their own, and since management would not take it seriously we did it ourselves. Management of course had a hissy because many weeks, that action caused him to be low on hours by friday. And not to mention paying someone $30+ an hour to carry around kitty litter and spread it out on oil spills was not to smart. As far as I know, it still is a serious problem in this building.

unsafe order equates to an unlawful order.

I find that an interesting thought.

Here it is, UPS micromanages its center managers to the point they do not have the authority to add an extra route, but yet he has the authority to demand an employee work contrary to the doctors restrictions? How does that happen?

And lets see, taking that one step further, having oil on the floor, mixed with water causes a serious safety violation per OSHA standards. Something you can be fined for. So basically, a situation that is against the law, per your analysis. So why would UPS allow an unlawful situation to exist, and even after being made aware of it, allow it to continue????

Telling someone to say, climb over a bunch of packages on a moving belt to break a jam further up is unsafe, but is not unlawful.

Ah but nim, it is against the law. OSHA is very much a legal entity that can shut down your business, fine you to hell, and put you in jail for a violation like this. So yes, it is not only unsafe, but unlawful as well.

Washing windshields did not appear to exceed the limitations imposed on the injured employee. It was only when he went to go from one PC to another in the dimly lit building that he slipped on the oily floor and injured his other knee.

Upstate Washing of the windshields did not cause the injury, therefor in itself was not an unsafe action. It was the climbing in and out of the package cars that is a necessity in that job that was in a violation of the doctors orders. The dimly lit building and oil spill were secondary issues that contributed to the injury, but were not the direct cause of the injury. A normally healthy employee, as stated before, could have compensated for the oil/water. But in this case, the employee was physically unable.

d

 

[Bubblehead]

As I read the description of the chain of events in this case I cant help but come to the conclusion that this guy has a great case for a lawsuit.
Even UPS's ace legal team from the lawfirm of Wei, Cheatem, and Howe will have a hard time presenting a viable defense for the actions of this center manager.
While I wouldn't trade my health for a payday, I have to believe he will get paid in due time.
So in the spirit of the thread, this manager and the company will eventually be held "accountable".

 

[CharleyHustle]

TAW is all about the money, period. It allows UPS to pay instead of the insurance provider for the comp injury. Does anyone, doctor or not, believe for one minute that having this fellow wash windows in pkg cars will get him back to work one day sooner? Since when does ANYONE at UPS wash the inside windows of a pkg car? Heck they barely wash the outsides on any kind of an unreliable schedule. Their is no reason for someone who has the where-with-all to rise to center manager in this company that would figure there is any regular job function at a UPS facility that could be performed with these restrictions other than sitting at a desk and answering the phone.

It's the same old same old, darned if you do, darned if you don't. How could you be so stupid to go in there and get stuck? That road looks fine, why didn't you go in and get it delivered. You backed in and hit what? You hurt yourself hauling that stuff from the road, why didn't you just back in? Ya da, ya da, ya da. The problem is not the injured worker, the center manager, or the oil and water on the floor. The problem is TAW and why this man wasn't rehabing his injury with paid professionals instead of some rank amature center manager.

 

[Signature Only]

AMEN!

Applying kitty litter to spills costs time and money. Both the preload and the carwash are expected to meet a certain production metric, and attaining that metric will always be more important than some abstract concept like safety.

And as far as the "safety committee" coming up with a solution.....you can forget about anything like that ever happening. The issue will be discussed in meetings for a few years, and at the end of that exhaustive process they will roll out a brand new Avoiding Slips and Falls acronym for the work group to memorize and recite on cue.
They will color some posters, and distribute some flyers, and if you are a good boy they will give you a cookie. But the oil and water will still be on the floor.

 

[menotyou]

TAW is all about the money, period. It allows UPS to pay instead of the insurance provider for the comp injury. Does anyone, doctor or not, believe for one minute that having this fellow wash windows in pkg cars will get him back to work one day sooner? Since when does ANYONE at UPS wash the inside windows of a pkg car? Heck they barely wash the outsides on any kind of an unreliable schedule. Their is no reason for someone who has the where-with-all to rise to center manager in this company that would figure there is any regular job function at a UPS facility that could be performed with these restrictions other than sitting at a desk and answering the phone.

It's the same old same old, darned if you do, darned if you don't. How could you be so stupid to go in there and get stuck? That road looks fine, why didn't you go in and get it delivered. You backed in and hit what? You hurt yourself hauling that stuff from the road, why didn't you just back in? Ya da, ya da, ya da. The problem is not the injured worker, the center manager, or the oil and water on the floor. The problem is TAW and why this man wasn't rehabing his injury with paid professionals instead of some rank amature center manager.

I agree with everything you say. The problem with comp is if the ins company's dr decides you can lift an envelope, your comp check gets cut in half, or worse. It doesn't matter that your dr says you can't go back to work without severe restrictions. It doesn't matter that UPS won't let you back because you aren't full duty. Comp doesn't compensate you at all. The only winner is UPS. (I am speaking about NYS, I hear other states are different)
That is why people are willing to work TAW, because you get your regular pay. It benefits both the employee and UPS financially. UPS doesn't get hit with the out of work penalty by OSHA. UPS is self-insured with Liberty Mutual acting as an agent of some type. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but that is how it works in NY.
I know that in the long run it doesn't benefit the employee, but it is hard to turn down the cash.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

In my center, employees on TAW who have rehab as part of their treatment program will have their TAW tailored to work around their rehab. This allows the employee to continue to collect his full check while working their way back from the injury.

 

[menotyou]

In my center, employees on TAW who have rehab as part of their treatment program will have their TAW tailored to work around their rehab. This allows the employee to continue to collect his full check while working their way back from the injury.

That is a wonderful way of handling the situation.

 

[Returntosender]

I predict the center manager is going to be demoted to fulltime sup after this is all over.

 

[dannyboy]

Tie, you still have not addressed the question as to what happens when an employee refuses to work as directed on TAW. Why? And for that matter, none of the other management posters either.

Why not?

d

 

[Anonymous 10]

Tie, you still have not addressed the question as to what happens when an employee refuses to work as directed on TAW. Why? And for that matter, none of the other management posters either.

Why not?





d

Dannyboy I think it's because he's in time out.






407

 

[soberups]

In my center, employees on TAW who have rehab as part of their treatment program will have their TAW tailored to work around their rehab. This allows the employee to continue to collect his full check while working their way back from the injury.

Thats pretty much the way it works here. If all you are able to do is sit on your butt in the office then that is all you have to do. At any given time in our building there are probably 2 or 3 TAW's with various restrictions and they are frequently used to shuttle misloads or do car swaps if they are able to drive. I see it as a win/win because it keeps UPS's insurance rates down while giving employees with short-term minor injuries a chance to rehab without losing any pay or benefits.

I cant speak for other locations, but in my area when you go on TAW you sign a form listing all of your restrictions and you agree in writing not to exceed them. I have yet to hear of any situation where an employee was pressured by management into doing something that put him/her at risk.

 

[dannyboy]

That is not the way it works here.

The climax builds as to why none of the management posters have not responded to the question.

d

 

[browniehound]

There has been a lot of focus placed on accountablility over the last few years, much more so than in years past.

So are there limits to the accountability at UPS? Are there people that are exempt from being accountable? How far do we take accountability? To the point of termination?"

The above from Dannyboy. The following (I messed up the quote process) from Browniehound...


Ah, accountability. I am held accountable for everything down to the last detail. i.e. signing the DVIR legibly. Yes, they actually bust our ping pongs for this. Its like you know I drove the truck that day, why do you insist my signature be readable? Not a big deal, I just print my name.

I look at it this way. Just do the job correctly and you can say to yourself that you don't answer anyone and are not held accountable. Its not that hard and its my own way of keeping my piece of mind. I know this is the very definition of being held accountable but if I don't have to go into the office then I can tell myself I'm not accountable. I understand that's far fetched but does it make any sense to anyone? LOL HA HA.

Just do it by the book and there should be no problems.

Now, on the flip side imagine if management was held to the driver's standards. I mean the last 2 weeks alone we had late air at least 5 times. The preload is wraping 40 minutes after our start time.

Then there is misloads (I actually had a preloader misload 2 airs for the same stop on the 2 trucks next to me. So in other words, he took 1 air and put it on the truck to the left of me and loaded the second one on the truck to the right of me!).
What are the chances that there is someone so stupid working here? Oh, I forgot, its UPS!

Ya know, I catch heat for a SPORH that is .3 less than they want on one day and missing a package on my route because I found it after they closed, but management can totally mis a bag of airs left on the slide or 2 pallets of bulk and have to waste money shuttling the stuff out to drivers. Imagine the cost for that screw up? My guess is all profit is lost once it needs to be shuttled out and never mind the bag of airs. That must be a 5-10 thousands in lost revenue?

If I performed like our center team and preload on a daily basis, I would be out of a job. I am now convinced that managment has to pick up some of the slack they are laying on us drivers.

No?

 

[dannyboy]

Brownie, I can disagree with one thing you posted. I have seen the waste as well. The stupidity. The lack of concern for the drop in services we have to offer our customers.

Our center has been tampered with so many times over the last few years to get the loops fixed. Each time, the core of UPS's business, the business customer, takes the hit by having delivery and pickup times changed. At one time, the local center team set up routes so that the vast majority of the business stops were all delivered by 2-3, and most of the pick ups were made after 2:30-3.

Now, it is not unusual to have pickups made several hours before the deliveries are made to the same stop. Customers can not rely on UPS to be punctual in their deliveries (with some exception being made for NDA's) from one day to the next, much less over the period of a month or more.

All this is feeding directly into FDX and the postal service's laps. I have heard much about drivers needing to service the customer's needs better, but very little about how management intends to fix problems.

As a business owner, I dont blame the ups driver. Not only is he a great guy, he is a friend of many years. I blame UPS for the lack of accountability. And it is that lack of their accountability that causes me to shift at least some, if not most, of my many shipments to other carriers. When it comes to my business, and my customers, I am accountable. Therefor I make decisions that are best for me and my customers.

d