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[vantexan]

The money may be there now. That doesn't mean it will be there in perpetuity, which is what the old dinosaurs of the corporate world were banking on before they learned otherwise. The bonuses and so forth that people like you whine about are a drop in the bucket compared to the ongoing expense of legacy costs. If people like you ever figured out how to use a calculator....

Then the company shouldn't have used the promise of a pension as a selling point to recruit newhires. Did they not have a calculator? Actuaries? They did do something about legacy costs. They started hiring people under the PPA in I believe 2003. If someone chooses to hire on with a cash balance plan that's his business. Those of us under the traditional plan should get the full pension, even if that cuts into profits and keeps the exec's from cashing in big time.

 

[Route 66]

^ absolutely 100% spot on ^

 

[purplesky]

The money isn't there for what you're wanting.

GM, Ford, and Dodge were the epitome of good pay, benefits, and pensions; "doing right by its employees." Despite all the changes to the marketplace over time, they did right by their employees for decades and decades. They told their employees that things were changing and this couldn't go on forever; the employees agreed to some relatively minor concessions. Through it all though, they still did right by their employees.

Right into bankruptcy (except Ford, who came close).

Companies loaded up employees with benefits way back then under the assumption that the markup would always remain sky high on whatever they sold and that they'd always sell plenty of it. They learned the hard way how wrong they were.

So now they build cars in the RIGHT TO WORK STATES and pay $14.00hr to build cars that sell for 40k. The markup on cars these days is insane. The car companies are making a killing. So is Harley Davidson.

 

[MrFedEx]

So now they build cars in the RIGHT TO WORK STATES and pay $14.00hr to build cars that sell for 40k. The markup on cars these days is insane. The car companies are making a killing. So is Harley Davidson.

Hey, you are blowing Dano's marvelous theories to pieces. Fred and MT3 were getting ready to launch the new "legacy costs" excuse, so they had Dano come on here and run it by us to see if we smelled a pile of steaming feces. We did, so it's back to the drawing board.

 

[59 Dano]

Can we expect a talk about "legacy costs" in the near future? Maybe this is the new phraseology that is going to wake all of us hourlies up to what a great deal we're getting. You're so full of crap. FedEx has minimal retirement costs, especially in comparison to a high-wage, unionized company like GM or Chrysler. The job we do is not subject to foreign competition, so your head is up your ass on that one too. Until Fred can import Mexicans or Chinese to do our jobs, your statement is just plain false. FedEx has very low retirement costs, and they're getting proportionately lower with the PPP and many people walking out the door before they are even vested. Do your math.

If you haven't lived under a rock for the past decade, you're well aware of the trillions in unfunded pension liabilities. That's just for state-level pensions alone. Then we can add in the unfunded liabilities of the municipal, county, and federal pensions. These guys don't have much competition, either. Then we could spend all day listing the companies who've had to go out of business or file for bankruptcy with billions of dollars of unfunded pension liabilities. And finally, we could account for the companies who've had to ditch DB pensions because --surprise, surprise-- they couldn't guarantee that they'd be able to fund them in perpetuity.

That's my math.

 

[vantexan]

If you haven't lived under a rock for the past decade, you're well aware of the trillions in unfunded pension liabilities. That's just for state-level pensions alone. Then we can add in the unfunded liabilities of the municipal, county, and federal pensions. These guys don't have much competition, either. Then we could spend all day listing the companies who've had to go out of business or file for bankruptcy with billions of dollars of unfunded pension liabilities. And finally, we could account for the companies who've had to ditch DB pensions because --surprise, surprise-- they couldn't guarantee that they'd be able to fund them in perpetuity.

That's my math.

More smoke and mirrors. We aren't talking about unfunded liabilities at the state level where gov't workers have been promised the moon. We are talking about a relatively small group that will eventually die off and who's pensions aren't that big anyways. No funding in perpetuity. Keep your promises or at least do as well as you can by your people if you reneg. What's happening now is nowhere near what they could reasonably do for employees.

 

[59 Dano]

I believe we've discussed here how the money isn't here to pay us like UPS drivers. But the money is certainly here to top us out in a reasonable amount of time, and to keep the traditional pension. Obamacare has given them the out to gut our insurance. If they tell us they can no longer afford the pension, for example, then tell Wall Street they'll almost double profits, they are lying to us.

Money to top out hourlies in a reasonable period of time? Yes, absolutely. DB pension? No.

Just because there is money coming in now to fund them at their current level doesn't mean that it will be 25 years from now to fund them at that level. The theory behind DB pensions is that sufficient money will always come in to fully fund and pay all future obligations.

 

[59 Dano]

Those of us under the traditional plan should get the full pension, even if that cuts into profits and keeps the exec's from cashing in big time.

I should be 9 feet tall, but I'm not.

 

[59 Dano]

So now they build cars in the RIGHT TO WORK STATES and pay $14.00hr to build cars that sell for 40k. The markup on cars these days is insane. The car companies are making a killing. So is Harley Davidson.

A killing?

GM's margin of profit is 3.67%.
Ford's is 3.24%.
Can't find anything clear on Chrysler, but I've seen everything from 1% to 5%.

A $40,000 car nets less than $2000 profit at those margins. IOW, the companies are spending over $38,000 to achieve a gain of less than $2000.

HD is a different story at 15%. HD is absolutely killing it. I guess one out of four ain't bad.

 

[59 Dano]

More smoke and mirrors. We aren't talking about unfunded liabilities at the state level where gov't workers have been promised the moon. We are talking about a relatively small group that will eventually die off and who's pensions aren't that big anyways. No funding in perpetuity. Keep your promises or at least do as well as you can by your people if you reneg. What's happening now is nowhere near what they could reasonably do for employees.

I suppose, as long as you get yours. Right?

 

[MrFedEx]

I suppose, as long as you get yours. Right?

van got screwed, as did many others. He knows first-hand.

 

[vantexan]

I suppose, as long as you get yours. Right?

The difference is we put in the years under the traditional pension. The vast majority of us put up with alot of crap over a very long time. They're still having to pay what was earned so we are only talking about the difference we should have gotten. The company can afford it, do the right thing. Heaven forbid we keep multimillionaires from making more millions.

 

[purplesky]

A killing?

GM's margin of profit is 3.67%.
Ford's is 3.24%.
Can't find anything clear on Chrysler, but I've seen everything from 1% to 5%.

A $40,000 car nets less than $2000 profit at those margins. IOW, the companies are spending over $38,000 to achieve a gain of less than $2000.

HD is a different story at 15%. HD is absolutely killing it. I guess one out of four ain't bad.

I am talking about all car brands made in America which also include Volkswagen, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Subaru, Honda, Toyota, Acura, Hyundai, Mazda, Mitsubishi,etc.

You can throw out numbers all day long about the factory profit margins BUT NOBODY REALLY KNOWS FOR SURE?. The car makers sure as hell aren't going to tell you a real number. You can spin factory profit margins.

They are paying some workers $14hr(30k per year) to build a 40k car. Any 40k car that sells just average numbers in a successful year is going to provide way more than $2000 profit per unit to the factory. Especially a car that stays in production for several years with no major changes.

Also factory financing adds to the profit of each vehicle. Buyer pays shipping and prep. Buyer also pays dealer fee which can be as high as $400 to cover ad fees or whatever.

 

[hypo hanna]

If you haven't lived under a rock for the past decade, you're well aware of the trillions in unfunded pension liabilities. That's just for state-level pensions alone. Then we can add in the unfunded liabilities of the municipal, county, and federal pensions. These guys don't have much competition, either. Then we could spend all day listing the companies who've had to go out of business or file for bankruptcy with billions of dollars of......

Yes there were/are some underfunded pensions but a lot of the ones like our that were converted to portable 401K BS plans were actually OVERFUNDED. They could t get their hands on that differance without shutting down the traditional plans.
Read "Retirement Heist" by Ellen Schultz if you want to know what happened to pensions in this country.

 

[MrFedEx]

Yes there were/are some underfunded pensions but a lot of the ones like our that were converted to portable 401K BS plans were actually OVERFUNDED. They could t get their hands on that differance without shutting down the traditional plans.
Read "Retirement Heist" by Ellen Schultz if you want to know what happened to pensions in this country.

Correct. Once a year, FedEx sends you (by law) an accounting of the FedEx Pension Plan(s). They are more than fully funded, so trying to use "legacy costs" or some other sort of BS to say that retirement costs are draining them dry is another huge lie. Jesus, how could they not be fully funded based on the pittance retirees receive?

 

[TUT]

You can throw out numbers all day long about the factory profit margins BUT NOBODY REALLY KNOWS FOR SURE?. The car makers sure as hell aren't going to tell you

Don't you take profit/# of cars made? (This assumes a profit was made for the quarterly.)

 

[purplesky]

Don't you take profit/# of cars made? (This assumes a profit was made for the quarterly.)

When you throw in global sales and all the different types of vehicles made its impossible to really know actual profit margins. BMW,Acura, and Mercedes must have huge profit margins here in the states.

Its not like car companies are going to brag about how cheaply they can make cars paying workers barely a living wage and make billions each year. Its a secret.

Its just like FDX and UPS making money on most volume and losing money on some volume. FDX and UPS aren't going to give real world numbers on what they make on each package. Its a secret.

 

[Route 66]

Dano59 isn't a real person. He's simply a shillbot located deep within the bowls of the enemy command center; programmed to constantly monitor the BC and make ludicrous, inane responses to posts. Notice there are periods of time when we hear nothing from 'Dano59' and those are the times when he has "gone down". Interpret that as you will.

 

[TUT]

When you throw in global sales and all the different types of vehicles made its impossible to really know actual profit margins. BMW,Acura, and Mercedes must have huge profit margins here in the states.

Its not like car companies are going to brag about how cheaply they can make cars paying workers barely a living wage and make billions each year. Its a secret.

Its just like FDX and UPS making money on most volume and losing money on some volume. FDX and UPS aren't going to give real world numbers on what they make on each package. Its a secret.

I get your point, but I think when media outlets state profit per vehicle, they just use raw numbers like this. Yes internally they will have much more detail on specific makes and models and their p/l on each.

UPS and Fedex do report profit per package if you do the math, again in an overall look at things. But sure they will know by lanes which packages make what or try to figure it out.

 

[MrFedEx]

Dano59 isn't a real person. He's simply a shillbot located deep within the bowls of the enemy command center; programmed to constantly monitor the BC and make ludicrous, inane responses to posts. Notice there are periods of time when we hear nothing from 'Dano59' and those are the times when he has "gone down". Interpret that as you will.

R1a made essentially the same observations. Dano only appears when MEM is alarmed and they need to spread disinformation.