And here they go once again

[chuchu]

My apologies. Are you OK?

Reminds me of when the whistle blows and the roadrunner and coyote punches out.

 

[pickup]

Reminds me of when the whistle blows and the roadrunner and coyote punches out.

Wasn't that with the sheepdog and the coyote? Yes it was.

 

[chuchu]

That's the one!

 

[brownIEman]

Chuchu "clearly" said nothing of the sort, from what I read in this thread?
But if that were the case, and what we said was the case regarding the lack of "buy in" by management, why would a smart fella like chuchu approach the program as if it were sincere.
How could any intelligent hourly employee not be skeptical of such a radically different initiative, especially when their supervisor isn't earnestly selling it?

Like most new UPS programs, a huge initial investment was followed by neglect and a short changed lack of support.

Being skeptical is fine and expected. Refusing to give it any chance at all is simply pig headed and stupid. When I get a customer complaint about a drivers unprofessional behavior, I do not assume the customer is totally correct and just throw the book at the driver - even if he has a huge history with professional behavior complaints. I always give him a chance and hear his side of the story, even if I am skeptical.

chuchu was given the opportunity to participate in, using your term to embrace, a program where his ideas could be heard. And often, in the work teams meetings, management was not even allowed, so it was a paid forum for the employees to share their ideas with each other and build solutions to bring to management. There was also procedures build into the process to take those solutions to those above ones immediate management if they were obstructing. He clearly stated that he chose not to participate.

 

[brownIEman]

You, again, have proven my point.

Connecting the dots takes a willingness to understand the other person's feelings and how those feelings were precipitated and why.

Out of touch and purposely blind doesn't mean that the train isn't coming. It's not about car wash, it's about brain wash. You must be in IE.

Management doesn't "get it" because they don't want to. So the divide and disbelief continues.

That's why your programs aren't bought and given credibility to by hourly. Don't blame the IBT.

We don't believe management because predominantly, you are unbelievable.

Ok. I get it now. You are one of those drivers who has given up and assigned in his mind management as a morally lower class of people who do nothing but lie and steal from you and always will no matter the reality. In a word, you are prejudiced. Any thing you see a management person doing, you will automatically assign the worst possible motives to, and you will not be dissuaded with any amount of evidence or reason.

To be fair, you are not alone, I have seen many, many drivers in the same boat. I understand how you got there as well, built by many acts of injustice perpetrated against you. This phenomenon is not unique to hourlies either, I have seen many management people who are convinced the drivers are all thieves and cheats who are just looking for an opportunity to steal time from the company and find ways to give as little work as possible every day. Like you, these management take every misstep by an hourly employee to bolster their misguided belief system.

You both, hourly bigot and management bigot, are truly tiring to deal with by those of us who just want to be fair to our employees, the company and our customers and handle the business in a very chaotic environment.

 

[stealth8]

“The public image of the autoworkers is very negative,” says Kristin Dzickek, a labor specialist at the Center for Automotive Research. “But if you think of the public image of UPS drivers, nurses, people you interact with in day-to-day jobs who may also be union members, they’re not seen as thugs. I don’t think anyone sees their UPS driver as a thug, even though some of them make more than autoworkers do. There’s not that same kind of attack on unionization in other sectors.”

End of an article that appeared in the Washington Post this morning. Interesting prospective.


Sent using BrownCafe App

 

[brownIEman]

I don’t think anyone sees their UPS driver as a thug

Only people who have not had to work directly with them don't think of UPS drivers as thugs...


I kid -lighten up.

 

[Bubblehead]

Ok. I get it now. You are one of those drivers who has given up and assigned in his mind management as a morally lower class of people who do nothing but lie and steal from you and always will no matter the reality. In a word, you are prejudiced. Any thing you see a management person doing, you will automatically assign the worst possible motives to, and you will not be dissuaded with any amount of evidence or reason.

To be fair, you are not alone, I have seen many, many drivers in the same boat. I understand how you got there as well, built by many acts of injustice perpetrated against you. This phenomenon is not unique to hourlies either, I have seen many management people who are convinced the drivers are all thieves and cheats who are just looking for an opportunity to steal time from the company and find ways to give as little work as possible every day. Like you, these management take every misstep by an hourly employee to bolster their misguided belief system.

You both, hourly bigot and management bigot, are truly tiring to deal with by those of us who just want to be fair to our employees, the company and our customers and handle the business in a very chaotic environment.

Unfortunately, I don't work with any "managers".
I only deal with "facilitators" who's only purpose is to deceminate directives from managers in far away places.
These "facilitators" may very well share your desire to be fair, but are powerless to even make the most basic front line decisions.
Perhaps this phenomenon plays a role in this environment of mistrust?
Unfortunately, there is no room for partnership in this work environment.
Every frontline employee, both management and hourly, are simply just trying to survive now a days.

 

[chuchu]

Ok. I get it now. You are one of those drivers who has given up and assigned in his mind management as a morally lower class of people who do nothing but lie and steal from you and always will no matter the reality. In a word, you are prejudiced. Any thing you see a management person doing, you will automatically assign the worst possible motives to, and you will not be dissuaded with any amount of evidence or reason.

To be fair, you are not alone, I have seen many, many drivers in the same boat. I understand how you got there as well, built by many acts of injustice perpetrated against you. This phenomenon is not unique to hourlies either, I have seen many management people who are convinced the drivers are all thieves and cheats who are just looking for an opportunity to steal time from the company and find ways to give as little work as possible every day. Like you, these management take every misstep by an hourly employee to bolster their misguided belief system.

You both, hourly bigot and management bigot, are truly tiring to deal with by those of us who just want to be fair to our employees, the company and our customers and handle the business in a very chaotic environment.

I find a lot of truth in your last post but calling people bigots is a little strong IMO.

I've been at ups almost 20 yrs full time and seen the attitudes you describe from day one. I was not like that for a few years but repeated actions against honest hourly employees who had valid issues not being addressed by multiple management teams lead up to my perception of the way the company chooses to treat even honest, balanced, hard working employees when it's been made clear that management failed in an issue, not the employee.

It's always the hourly's fault no matter whether it's a granted 8hr request that the driver was given a literal ten hr dispatch and the driver was screamed at in the office the next day for or it was the driver manning sup that continuously "looses" vacation option day requests then denies the employee the day off due to an untimely request.

The list goes on.

I don't judge any manager for directives given from above his head. There are many great people in management at ups.

The problem is the pattern that never changes speaks louder than the intended result.

 

[barnyard]

“The public image of the autoworkers is very negative,” says Kristin Dzickek, a labor specialist at the Center for Automotive Research. “But if you think of the public image of UPS drivers, nurses, people you interact with in day-to-day jobs who may also be union members, they’re not seen as thugs. I don’t think anyone sees their UPS driver as a thug, even though some of them make more than autoworkers do. There’s not that same kind of attack on unionization in other sectors.”

End of an article that appeared in the Washington Post this morning. Interesting prospective.

I agree that we are not seen as thugs, I think that is because for the most part, people do not think of us as highly paid union employees. There have been links here, in other threads, to other forums where people are very, very critical of how much we make. Those folks do not see the union as helping us get fair pay for a fair day's work, they see us as over-paid.

It does bum me out that the autoworkers in TN did not vote for unionization. It would have been very interesting to see how VW worked with them here in the US.

 

[brownIEman]

I find a lot of truth in your last post but calling people bigots is a little strong IMO.

I've been at ups almost 20 yrs full time and seen the attitudes you describe from day one. I was not like that for a few years but repeated actions against honest hourly employees who had valid issues not being addressed by multiple management teams lead up to my perception of the way the company chooses to treat even honest, balanced, hard working employees when it's been made clear that management failed in an issue, not the employee.

It's always the hourly's fault no matter whether it's a granted 8hr request that the driver was given a literal ten hr dispatch and the driver was screamed at in the office the next day for or it was the driver manning sup that continuously "looses" vacation option day requests then denies the employee the day off due to an untimely request.

The list goes on.

I don't judge any manager for directives given from above his head. There are many great people in management at ups.

The problem is the pattern that never changes speaks louder than the intended result.

I get where you are coming from. It would be very easy for me to fall into the same trap, but I fight it every day. For every example of a driver being yelled at for failing to turn a 10hr dispatch into an 8 hour day, I can give you an example of a driver who took out a 7.25 hr dispatch, and despite the area being tighter to get that smaller stop count, some how managed to drop his sporh from a 15.5 to a 13.7, then ods in late that he will not make the 8, and mysteriously not be able to make the meet ups with drivers sent to help him, and files, and wins, the grievance. Because any problems with dispatch are always managements fault no matter the behavior of the driver.
Or the driver that legitimately did not have the seniority for a day with max vacations/options that was denied who gets mysteriously sick on the friday he wanted off but on facebook that day he seems quite healthy running around the Las Vegas strip (go ahead and insert giggle here). Or the driver who talked his doctor into giving him intermittent FMLA for headaches who mysteriously gets those headaches only on Fridays and Mondays, and days when his kids have a sporting event. Must be the stress.
The list goes on. And the pattern never changes. I am willing to bet you will find a way in your mind to justify any of these actions as a defensible reaction to management misdeeds. All things are managements fault.

I am sure I can match you example for example of poor behavior. Despite that, I refuse to see all drivers as in a class of morally bankrupt people. I refuse to become prejudiced and bigoted. And it is a form of bigotry, not nearly as harmful or spiteful as most racial or ethnic bigotries, granted, but a form of bigotry none the less.

If it makes it sound any better, I have much more contempt for the mindset of the management people who have allowed themselves to fall into this bigotry than the hourly. Also realize, my contempt is for your preconceived notions and attitudes. Not you personally. I keep that distinction very clear- it is one of the tools I use to avoid the trap.

 

[chuchu]

I get where you are coming from. It would be very easy for me to fall into the same trap, but I fight it every day. For every example of a driver being yelled at for failing to turn a 10hr dispatch into an 8 hour day, I can give you an example of a driver who took out a 7.25 hr dispatch, and despite the area being tighter to get that smaller stop count, some how managed to drop his sporh from a 15.5 to a 13.7, then ods in late that he will not make the 8, and mysteriously not be able to make the meet ups with drivers sent to help him, and files, and wins, the grievance. Because any problems with dispatch are always managements fault no matter the behavior of the driver.
Or the driver that legitimately did not have the seniority for a day with max vacations/options that was denied who gets mysteriously sick on the friday he wanted off but on facebook that day he seems quite healthy running around the Las Vegas strip (go ahead and insert giggle here). Or the driver who talked his doctor into giving him intermittent FMLA for headaches who mysteriously gets those headaches only on Fridays and Mondays, and days when his kids have a sporting event. Must be the stress.
The list goes on. And the pattern never changes. I am willing to bet you will find a way in your mind to justify any of these actions as a defensible reaction to management misdeeds. All things are managements fault.

I am sure I can match you example for example of poor behavior. Despite that, I refuse to see all drivers as in a class of morally bankrupt people. I refuse to become prejudiced and bigoted. And it is a form of bigotry, not nearly as harmful or spiteful as most racial or ethnic bigotries, granted, but a form of bigotry none the less.

If it makes it sound any better, I have much more contempt for the mindset of the management people who have allowed themselves to fall into this bigotry than the hourly. Also realize, my contempt is for your preconceived notions and attitudes. Not you personally. I keep that distinction very clear- it is one of the tools I use to avoid the trap.

Sorry you know employees like that. Our drivers arent like that. Not one of your examples matches any of our issues and none of our drivers (all 40 of them) have been on FMLA for anything like you're talking about. They have taken the rejected option day off if it was unjustly rejected but that is rare that they do that.
They just get more and more frustrated.

The deal is, (from our perspective anyway) that you, plural, are in control not the hourly and when the control becomes abusive and dishonest then the employees circle the wagons.

All your words (and mine) will never change the climate at UPS. From what I've seen, personal accountability is the basic soil to grow new things there and integrity is a rare find when things break down.
My attitude is one of scepticism BOFP, not a blanket condemnation of all ups management. In almost twenty years the facts have changed little.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

The VW workers didn't want to RISK ending up like UAW plants in Detroit. I don't blame them. I like the idea of the "works councils" and I'm hearing that many of the employees at VW Chattanooga did too. Just not enough to let the UAW in.

 

[brownIEman]

Sorry you know employees like that. Our drivers arent like that. Not one of your examples matches any of our issues and none of our drivers (all 40 of them) have been on FMLA for anything like you're talking about. They have taken the rejected option day off if it was unjustly rejected but that is rare that they do that.
They just get more and more frustrated.

The deal is, (from our perspective anyway) that you, plural, are in control not the hourly and when the control becomes abusive and dishonest then the employees circle the wagons.

All your words (and mine) will never change the climate at UPS. From what I've seen, personal accountability is the basic soil to grow new things there and integrity is a rare find when things break down.
My attitude is one of scepticism BOFP, not a blanket condemnation of all ups management. In almost twenty years the facts have changed little.

Only 40 drivers? I thought Clarksville was a larger center than that.
I have no knowledge of your center, so I will have to take your word for it. And I hope you are being accurate, but I myself cannot help being skeptical of your claim.

I agree wholeheartedly that we plural are in control, that is the nature of a hierarchy. It is why we have a greater responsibility, and also why as I mentioned earlier, I have a greater contempt for the attitudes of my partners who fall into the us vs them and them are evil mindset than I do the hourly.

Ironically, the work teams UPS tried so many years ago were an effort to wrest some of that control away from front line management and put it in your hands. Had you realized that back then, you may have had a greater desire to participate? Who knows what might have happened, though I have no doubt it would have likely failed anyway. Those front line management did not want it to succeed anymore than the IBT did. The circling of wagons as you call it, is exactly what the IBT wants, as it generates more loyalty among the rank and file.

 

[oldngray]

Only 40 drivers? I thought Clarksville was a larger center than that.
I have no knowledge of your center, so I will have to take your word for it. And I hope you are being accurate, but I myself cannot help being skeptical of your claim.

I agree wholeheartedly that we plural are in control, that is the nature of a hierarchy. It is why we have a greater responsibility, and also why as I mentioned earlier, I have a greater contempt for the attitudes of my partners who fall into the us vs them and them are evil mindset than I do the hourly.

Ironically, the work teams UPS tried so many years ago were an effort to wrest some of that control away from front line management and put it in your hands. Had you realized that back then, you may have had a greater desire to participate? Who knows what might have happened, though I have no doubt it would have likely failed anyway. Those front line management did not want it to succeed anymore than the IBT did. The circling of wagons as you call it, is exactly what the IBT wants, as it generates more loyalty among the rank and file.

I went through that attempt to empower employees. Most drivers didn't trust the company's motives but were willing to give it a try. It was nothing but a stunt either for PR or an attempt to weaken the union. Supposedly hourly were empowered to make decisions but in reality it was just a sham. None of changes recommended were put into effect and every time something was tried it was revealed it all went through management who still had the real power and could instantly reject any changes they didn't like.

 

[PT Car Washer]

In the hubs it replaced some of the PT sups with a belt team leader. As far as I know that concept worked. Didn't have any sup working grievances.

 

[chuchu]

Only 40 drivers? I thought Clarksville was a larger center than that.
I have no knowledge of your center, so I will have to take your word for it. And I hope you are being accurate, but I myself cannot help being skeptical of your claim.

I agree wholeheartedly that we plural are in control, that is the nature of a hierarchy. It is why we have a greater responsibility, and also why as I mentioned earlier, I have a greater contempt for the attitudes of my partners who fall into the us vs them and them are evil mindset than I do the hourly.

Ironically, the work teams UPS tried so many years ago were an effort to wrest some of that control away from front line management and put it in your hands. Had you realized that back then, you may have had a greater desire to participate? Who knows what might have happened, though I have no doubt it would have likely failed anyway. Those front line management did not want it to succeed anymore than the IBT did. The circling of wagons as you call it, is exactly what the IBT wants, as it generates more loyalty among the rank and file.

I have nothing to gain by lying. I went to the meetings. Every one I was scheduled to attend, I attended. I'm not sure what I wrote that led you to think I didn't support the initiative. I said that it disapeared after the strike. That made the whole program suspect.
The only downside to the program was that it pit the team leader against their coworkers from time to time.

 

[brownIEman]

I went through that attempt to empower employees. Most drivers didn't trust the company's motives but were willing to give it a try. It was nothing but a stunt either for PR or an attempt to weaken the union. Supposedly hourly were empowered to make decisions but in reality it was just a sham. None of changes recommended were put into effect and every time something was tried it was revealed it all went through management who still had the real power and could instantly reject any changes they didn't like.

I can assure you it was no pr stunt. The CEO at the time was committed to the ideas generated by the Atlanta Consulting Group, you could say he was deeply in bed with the plan. The thing died actually shortly before the strike about the time Kelly took over as CEO. It dying had everything to do with the change in leadership, and the fact that it had given no gains in service for the extra costs in production it produced. It had nothing to do with the strike.

 

[chuchu]

I can assure you it was no pr stunt. The CEO at the time was committed to the ideas generated by the Atlanta Consulting Group, you could say he was deeply in bed with the plan. The thing died actually shortly before the strike about the time Kelly took over as CEO. It dying had everything to do with the change in leadership, and the fact that it had given no gains in service for the extra costs in production it produced. It had nothing to do with the strike.

Poor timing?
It's amazing how CEOs vision can be so completely different in running a company of this size. Sometimes it's like stopping an M1E1 running 60 mph in ten feet with the way they've implemented different programs in the past.
Our self directed teams were in place up to the end of July of 1997.

Whether it matters now or not, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...for what that's worth.

 

[Stonefish]

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/02/this_governor_actually_said_un.html