Another example of Central States mismanagement

[sawdusttv]

Re: DisOrganized Crime

Come on! Isnt it true that when the hard questions get asked they accuse the asker of being a teamster loyalist and throw them out? I think its the apwa doing a good duck, tuck, and tail manuever to get out of there when the crowd isnt brainwashed to believe that van and danny are the second coming of jesus and moses.

OK Red,

We all know how belligerant a teamster official can get at a general meeting, especially when they have been sent to a meeting to do just that, disrupt it! You know as well as I do, that if they came in and asked there questions in a civilized manner that they would be allowed to stay. It isn't the question that is the problem it is the manner in which it is delivered. You and I have been around to long to mince words here. You know as well as I, that these guys are sent there with the soul purpose of disrupting the meeting, they are not there to get info.

 

[705red]

E you are a waste of time! You cry, cry,cry and jon answers you and you still cry! Now i will be better than you you, because if i say what i really think of you i will be banned for life from the browncafe. So now that jon has explained to you how to read financial forms, can you please tell us where the apwas money is coming from! If not go tuck tail forever and spread your hatred somewhere else![/quot
I really don't care what you think of me, but I do know from reading your garbage is that you are a maroon. Who else but a Teamster BA or higher up in this corrupt organization would keep defending CS ineptitude (look it up).
I know how to read financial forms, unlike the uneducated maroon that you are. Jon has not explained where the missing $15,000,000 is, or who is getting the $16,217,161 as listed on schedule C, line 1. According to Jon, only the first 40 are listed, and if this is so, then the others receiving compensation are included in line 1, but there is still a discrepancy (look it up) of approximately $15,000,000. I didn't want to resort to calling you anything, but your stupidity flabbergasts (look it up) me.

You talk alot E79, i sure hope you can back it up! Or are you just another keyboard cowboy? If you not given any infractions for the name calling over the last 2 days, come back here tomorrow to see how i really fell about you!

 

[Bill]

Re: What Are The Teamsters Doing To Fix The Pension Problems?

Engineer 79,
Visit the Central States site . . .
http://www.centralstatesfunds.org/Participants/

Read how the required hourly employer contribution levels have been increased to shore-up the Fund . . .
http://www.centralstatesfunds.org/cs/Pdf/SpecialBulletin2007.pdf

Read the quarterly reports of the Fund's progress . . .
http://www.centralstatesfunds.org/cs/Spcl_Councel_Report.asp

Read the Fund Trustees' explanations of what caused the Plan's problems, and what they have done to fix it, in issues of Teamwork Magazine . . .
http://www.centralstatesfunds.org/cs/plans/teamwork.asp

There's also the original Plan Fix that was imposed by Judge Moran. Sorry, I don't have a link to it.

I am not in the Central States fund, but I assume most of this information was sent to your home. You may not agree with it, but it is a plan to fix the Fund. Basically it involves cutting benefits to reduce expenses, and increasing contributions to increase income. Over time the fund's financial status should improve, as it in fact has. A favorable stock market is helping too.

The Teamsters, as such, do not control the fund, Judge Moran does, under a 1982 Consent Decree. The Trustees have only limited power, and Teamsters Trustees have only half of that. Investment decisions are made by "named fiduciaries" that are big-name Wall Street investment firms. The Teamsters only negotiate the hourly contribution rate, and they will try to negotiate as high a rate as possible to shore-up the Fund, I assume.

As always, I'm not defending the sorry state of the Fund, just reminding you that fixes have been in place for several years now, and you should stop pretending nothing has been done.

I don't know what crystal ball you are looking into, but the CS pension fund is in such a mess, there is no turning it around any longer. While the assets have gone up over the last few years, the liabilities have gone up faster. This puts the fund in worse shape each year. The number of retirees are double the number of active participants. As more people retire each year, the liabilities increase. By cutting our benefits and forcing us to worker longer, the pension fund is keeping the money longer,but the reality is that it is only delaying the inevitable by 10 years, in which case the fund will be worse off than now, if it is not bankrupt by then. Question for you and red: If all UPS employees do the same job throughout the country, then why do some of us receive better benefits and pensions than others? We should all receive the same benefits no matter where we work. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[JonFrum]

Does anyone want Engineer79 to run their benefit plans?

Engineer 79,
The Form 5500 calls for a certain level of detail. If you want more detail, you'll have to contact the Fund directly, (or snoop around the Fund's parking lot.) It's not my responsibility to provide you with the details. It's irresponsible of you to say the lack of detail is a discrepancy, implying that there is wrongdoing involved. The seperate Schedule C Instructions say only the top forty Service Providers should be listed. The Form itself says it too. The Instructions also say that anyone receiving less than $5,000 should not be itemized. Nor should employees receiving less that $1,000 per month:

"Line 2 of Part I must be completed to report contract administrators and persons receiving, directly or indirectly, $5,000 or more in compensation for all services rendered to the plan or DFE during the plan or DFE year except:
Employees of the plan whose only compensation in relation to the plan was less than $1,000 for each month of employment during the plan year; . . ."
- - - - -
Everyone responsible for fixing the Plan thinks it is "fixed," but the cure will take a few years to work its way through. Results are already visible and should be more visible as each year passes. The IRS, the Department of Labor, the Justice Department, Judge Moran, the Trustees, the Fund Administrator, the accountants and actuaries, all seem more or less satisfied. Your dissent is, I'm sure, noted.
- - - - -
Do you ever look in the mirror and ask how you could have let your affairs get so screwed up? I mean, this has been going on for decades, and it has been covered extensively by the media. What exactly have you been doing all these years? Is it possible that you just don't know what you're talking about, and so whatever actions you took were "too little, too late," or ineffective, or maybe you just talked and talked, but never actually did anything. How many charges did you file to recover all the stolen money, for example? How much of the current $61 million will you recover? And how many fiduciaries and fund employees will be doin' a stretch in Leavenworth, or Marion, or Sing Sing as a result of your efforts?
- - - - -
We all *do* receive the same benefits, more or less, no matter what Supplement we are covered by. Hourly contributions are, with minor regional variations, essentially the same. But each fund invests its money differently and so each fund earns a different return. It's just like each UPSer investing his 401(k) money; each investor gets a different return depending on the specific investment choices he made. I made money during 2000-2002, most people lost money. The Trustees of each fund must rebalance the fund whenever money is lost in the stock market. Your Central States investments lost money in 2000-2002, so Judge Moran ordered your benefits to be cut accordingly. Life is hard, then you die.

 

[tieguy]

Im not taking it personal tie. What i am saying is both sides have unfavorables working for them. Im sure if the mob is in it like you insist, it will be a matter of time before they get caught. But if i were you i would stop bad mouthing the mob, they have ways to find people! Whos knows maybe they will just start wacking everyone at ups with ties on. If i hear anything about this at my monthly meeting i will warn you to insure youe safety, but you will have to do me a favor and make sure the ie guys are wearing their ties.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnn. I'm sorry I wasn't paying attention, was I supposed to be scared?

 

[tieguy]

Re: DisOrganized Crime

No one can say for sure, because the Mob is a secretive, illegal outfit. But the last few pages of every issue of the monthly Teamsters magazine has been documenting the fight to rid the Teamsters of Mob influence since the Consent Decree was signed in 1989!

Visit www.irbcases.org

Thanks Jon for at leat trying to answer the question. So in this case if the mob was good for collecting interest free loans in the past then Red a viable answer might be that you now have some type of oversight or control of the loans. Regular audits by independent auditors might be another answer. What safeguards are in place. Engineer 79 does bring up what appears to be a legitimate concern. Whats going out as admin charges and why is the bill so high. How does that bill compare to other plans etc. Unfortunately the trust your pension trustees option did not work so I do think the members have to educate theirselves to know that the admin charges are legit and to know that there are strong controls in place to keep the mob or dishonest administrators in check.

 

[18wheelbrownie]

Re: Central States: 63% Funded, And Rising; Not 47% And Falling Toward Zero

Engineer 79,
Just like a supertanker, it initially takes a while to turn around a huge pension fund, especially since the benefit cuts, and hourly contribution increases, must, by law, be concentrated among the active employees only. Retirees, and those vested-but-inactive, are off limits. Even with active employees, it's only their future accruals that can be affected, not their already vested pension benefits.

"Central States Fund Expands to $21 Billion

April 2, 2007: The Central States Pension Fund ended 2006 with a $1.4 billion gain in assets, reaching $20.7 billion—up from just $15 billion a few years ago. The fund projects that by the end of 2007, assets will be up to $21.2 billion, with expected investment returns. With better returns, the Fund projects that they will surpass $22 billion.

These figures are in the fund’s Financial and Analytical Reports obtained by TDU in February 2007.

This big gain in assets at Central States shows the impact of benefit accrual cuts imposed on members, and diversion of money from health and welfare to the pension fund for the third year in a row.

In addition, 2006 was a good year for investors, with the Fund’s investments earning 14.5 percent. . . ."
Full article: http://www.tdu.org/node/972

In a Q & A, TDU said:

"Q: Isn't the Central States Fund too messed up to be saved?

A: The Central States Fund is currently under-funded (it’s 63% funded), but that situation is rapidly improving. Last year the Fund assets jumped up to nearly $21 billion, and the fund continues to grow this year. This is because money negotiated for health and welfare has been diverted to the pension fund for three straight years, pouring hundreds of millions extra into the fund each year. Also the stock market has done well in recent years.

We can't afford to give up on Central States. Remember, if UPS pulls out of Central States, UPS Teamsters will still depend on the fund for a large part of our pension. It would not be smart to weaken the fund by supporting a pullout when we will depend on the fund later on to support our retirement. . . ."
Full article: http://www.makeupsdeliver.org/page.php?18

you know , i love the fact its up to 21 billion, but where are the other numbers, retirees, active participants,other retired and deceased ? they post 2006 current value of assets (21 billion) but not the current liability and on the next line pension fund rating! how was this over looked? this is the real inside story! i called cs and was told the 5500 form for 2006 would not be available for its participants until the 4th qtr. of 2007! where are the new rules that we can have our retirement money with no strings attach and have our 25 or 30 out back! it's nice tdu paints a green pasture but the fact is they don't want the apwa either! because most of there members are ups! tdu is not saying too much about the pension act of 2005 that will start jan.1,2008 ? i bet you will see more cuts everywhere! look , tdu has the right idea but they are fighting city hall (ibt) and most of us can't and won't wait for change one small step at a time! jonfrum, why don't you tell us more about your fund, new england multiemployer plan, i believe thats where you said in another thread, thats where you are from!

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: Central States: 63% Funded, And Rising; Not 47% And Falling Toward Zero

you know , i love the fact its up to 21 billion, but where are the other numbers, retirees, active participants,other retired and deceased ? they post 2006 current value of assets (21 billion) but not the current liability and on the next line pension fund rating! how was this over looked? this is the real inside story! i called cs and was told the 5500 form for 2006 would not be available for its participants until the 4th qtr. of 2007! where are the new rules that we can have our retirement money with no strings attach and have our 25 or 30 out back! it's nice tdu paints a green pasture but the fact is they don't want the apwa either! because most of there members are ups! tdu is not saying too much about the pension act of 2005 that will start jan.1,2008 ? i bet you will see more cuts everywhere! look , tdu has the right idea but they are fighting city hall (ibt) and most of us can't and won't wait for change one small step at a time! jonfrum, why don't you tell us more about your fund, new england multiemployer plan, i believe thats where you said in another thread, thats where you are from!

I was just reading an article on this subject from the Logestics Management website it covers many of these facts and figures, such as the CS liability being calculated at $14 billion to as much as $20 billion.
You can get to this article by going to the TDU website, on the front page click on "Pensions Dominate Teamsters Talks With UPS, Frieght Carriers", at the bottom of that article you will find a link to the Logistics Management article.
It is worth the reading.

 

[18wheelbrownie]

Re: Central States: 63% Funded, And Rising; Not 47% And Falling Toward Zero

I was just reading an article on this subject from the Logestics Management website it covers many of these facts and figures, such as the CS liability being calculated at $14 billion to as much as $20 billion.
You can get to this article by going to the TDU website, on the front page click on "Pensions Dominate Teamsters Talks With UPS, Frieght Carriers", at the bottom of that article you will find a link to the Logistics Management article.
It is worth the reading.

thanks, i read it and i am emailing other ups employees! i did not see the chart they mention? they missed one thing and it should have mention something about the pension act of 2005 that will be taken place jan. 1 , 2008 and how we will not recieve any increases until the multiemployer plans are 100% funded!

 

[JonFrum]

Re: Central States: 63% Funded, And Rising; Not 47% And Falling Toward Zero

. . . jonfrum, why don't you tell us more about your fund, new england multiemployer plan . . .

The New England Teamsters and Trucking Industry Pension Fund is a smaller fund than Central States, but is about as poorly funded. We lost money in 2000-2002 as well, (as did nearly everyone), and our benefits were cut too. We have to wait at least until age 57 to retire. But we don't have the extra problem of having so many more retirees than active members as Central States does, so our cuts weren't as painful.
Visit http://www.nettipf.com
Click on the Slideshow to see the Trustees' explanation of the problem.

Visit FreeERISAdotCom and search for the New England fund's Annual Reports (Form 5500) using :
Name Contains: Industry
Limit Zip Code to: 01803
http://www.freeerisa.com
It's free, but you do have to register.

 

[JonFrum]

Re: What Are The Teamsters Doing To Fix The Pension Problems?

. . . While the assets have gone up over the last few years, the liabilities have gone up faster. This puts the fund in worse shape each year. . .

After loosing billions in the market drop of 2000-2002, the Central States fund's assets have increased each year.

2002 . . . $15.4 billion
2003 . . . .17.7
2004 . . . .18.7
2005 . . . .19.3

And TDU reported,
2006 . . .$20.7 billion
2007 . . . .22 billion (estimate, if the stock market continues to go up.)

These figures are Net Assets. Net Assets are what the Fund actually has on hand after Liabilities are subtracted. The Titanic went Down. Central States is going Up.

 

[JonFrum]

IRS Form 990 Available Free From GUIDESTAR

Engineer 79,
To further investigate the Central States H&W Fund, go to . . .
http://www.guidestar.org
and register.

Then do a Search for:
Central States, SE & SW Areas Health & Welfare Fund
Rosemont, Illinois 60018

The IRS Form 990 for 2004 is available free online and has a list of the Trustees' and Directors' salaries and benefits from the Fund, as well as the other salary they get from the "related organization," meaning the Central States Pension Fund. Administrative expenses are itemized, as well as other financial data.
[16 page, Adobe .PDF file, 853kb.]

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: What Are The Teamsters Doing To Fix The Pension Problems?

After loosing billions in the market drop of 2000-2002, the Central States fund's assets have increased each year.

2002 . . . $15.4 billion
2003 . . . .17.7
2004 . . . .18.7
2005 . . . .19.3

And TDU reported,
2006 . . .$20.7 billion
2007 . . . .22 billion (estimate, if the stock market continues to go up.)

These figures are Net Assets. Net Assets are what the Fund actually has on hand after Liabilities are subtracted. The Titanic went Down. Central States is going Up.

Of course they are going up!
Since they cut pensions to next to nothing and required us to work an extra 10, 15, 20 years before we can draw. How many thousands of workers did they stop from retiring with the changes they made?????
If I was paying an employee $25 dollars an hour and cut his pay to $5 an hour, of course I would be able to show that I had more money in the bank.;

 

[Bill]

Re: What Are The Teamsters Doing To Fix The Pension Problems?

After loosing billions in the market drop of 2000-2002, the Central States fund's assets have increased each year.

2002 . . . $15.4 billion
2003 . . . .17.7
2004 . . . .18.7
2005 . . . .19.3

And TDU reported,
2006 . . .$20.7 billion
2007 . . . .22 billion (estimate, if the stock market continues to go up.)

These figures are Net Assets. Net Assets are what the Fund actually has on hand after Liabilities are subtracted. The Titanic went Down. Central States is going Up.

What you say makes no sense. If it is true that the assets were 20.7 billion dallars after liabilities are subtracted, then the pension would be 100% funded, but we know that is not the case. If the pension is only 47% funded, then obviously there is a shortage. Care to correct your statement?

 

[Cole]

Re: What Are The Teamsters Doing To Fix The Pension Problems?

OK Red,

We all know how belligerant a teamster official can get at a general meeting, especially when they have been sent to a meeting to do just that, disrupt it! You know as well as I do, that if they came in and asked there questions in a civilized manner that they would be allowed to stay. It isn't the question that is the problem it is the manner in which it is delivered. You and I have been around to long to mince words here. You know as well as I, that these guys are sent there with the soul purpose of disrupting the meeting, they are not there to get info.

I agree with Saw on this one, as I have seen this same disruptive tactics yrs ago at TDU meetings. Sometimes someone would come just to be disruptive, and eventually be asked to leave. It's obvious when that is the case, and the hosts have no choice when they recognize that someone isn't there for answers etc...

 

[JonFrum]

Plan Liabilities: Current vs. Future

What you say makes no sense. If it is true that the assets were 20.7 billion dallars after liabilities are subtracted, then the pension would be 100% funded, but we know that is not the case. If the pension is only 47% funded, then obviously there is a shortage. Care to correct your statement?

What I say makes no sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to the entire financial community. The Assets-Minus-Liabilities-Equals-Net Assets information is taken directly from Form 5500, Schedule H, Part One, Asset and Liability Statement, lines friend, k, and i.

Obviously Net Assets are accumulated for the purpose of paying future retirement benefits. If there is not enough Net Assets on hand, there is a Funding Deficiency. I realize future retirements are a liability of the Fund, but the financial community doesn't include them as a current liability. Instead they report Funding Levels as a seperate matter.

Central States has a major Funding Deficiency, but not as big as you enjoy claiming.

By the way, according to your method, a fully funded plan would be considered flat broke, because its entire Net Assets are earmarked to pay its entire future retirement obligations, without a penny left over.

 

[JonFrum]

What benefits would *you* have cut to rebalance the Fund?

Of course they are going up!
Since they cut pensions to next to nothing and required us to work an extra 10, 15, 20 years before we can draw. How many thousands of workers did they stop from retiring with the changes they made?????
If I was paying an employee $25 dollars an hour and cut his pay to $5 an hour, of course I would be able to show that I had more money in the bank.;

The Central States Fund was not fully funded to begin with. Then it lost six billion dollars in the bear market of 2000-2002. The Law says the Fund must meet certain minimum funding levels at all times. If the fund's assets drop, the Trustees must By Law cut the benefits to bring them in line with the available assets.

Now let's say you, Mr. Sawdust, are a Trustee, and you have to fulfill your Fiduiciary Duty. What cuts would you have made? Please be specific. Don't avoid the question. And don't propose any "solution" that would violate any law. Remember your cuts have to be concentrated in the area of future benefit accruals only.

The Trustees couldn't agree, so Judge Moran imposed cuts. I think the idea was to cut in every area that they legally could, so as to be fair to everyone and spread the misery as evenly as possible.

I'm waiting to hear where you would have cut.

 

[sawdusttv]

Re: What benefits would *you* have cut to rebalance the Fund?

The Central States Fund was not fully funded to begin with. Then it lost six billion dollars in the bear market of 2000-2002. The Law says the Fund must meet certain minimum funding levels at all times. If the fund's assets drop, the Trustees must By Law cut the benefits to bring them in line with the available assets.

Now let's say you, Mr. Sawdust, are a Trustee, and you have to fulfill your Fiduiciary Duty. What cuts would you have made? Please be specific. Don't avoid the question. And don't propose any "solution" that would violate any law. Remember your cuts have to be concentrated in the area of future benefit accruals only.

The Trustees couldn't agree, so Judge Moran imposed cuts. I think the idea was to cut in every area that they legally could, so as to be fair to everyone and spread the misery as evenly as possible.

I'm waiting to hear where you would have cut.

OK Jon,
Before I give you my solution, I'd Like to say that the reason CS fund lost that kind of money is due to very poor investment practices, in other words gambling with to much of our pension money instead of putting it into more secure investments.
That being said, here is what I would do!

I would have left the retirements of those with 25 or more years vested in tact completly. They do not have adequate time to recoup the loses. Then I would have made graduating cuts from 20 years service being small, down to large cuts for new hires. anyone not yet vested or less than 5 years and to include all new hires would take the brunt of the cuts. they either have the time to recoup from the cuts or are hired in knowing that there benifit levels would be lower than someone with 25 or more years. Granted the amounts of the graduated cuts would have to be determined but this would protect those employees that have little time left.

 

[JonFrum]

Re: What benefits would *you* have cut to rebalance the Fund?

OK Jon,
Before I give you my solution, I'd Like to say that the reason CS fund lost that kind of money is due to very poor investment practices, in other words gambling with to much of our pension money instead of putting it into more secure investments.
That being said, here is what I would do!

I would have left the retirements of those with 25 or more years vested in tact completly. They do not have adequate time to recoup the loses. Then I would have made graduating cuts from 20 years service being small, down to large cuts for new hires. anyone not yet vested or less than 5 years and to include all new hires would take the brunt of the cuts. they either have the time to recoup from the cuts or are hired in knowing that there benifit levels would be lower than someone with 25 or more years. Granted the amounts of the graduated cuts would have to be determined but this would protect those employees that have little time left.

Dear Trustee Sawdust,
(A/K/A Sawdust The Cruel, Sawdust The Unmerciful, Sawdust The Unkind, Sawdust The Heartless, Sawdust The Destroyer Of Dreams, etc.)

We both would need an accountant and an actuary to "run the numbers" to see if your cuts got the job done or not.

By exempting the 25-year-and-over people, you are making the cuts all the more brutal for everyone else. A disgruntled group called the Association of Parcel Workers of America Who Despise Trustee Sawdust will spring up and make your life a living Hell.

You may also have made joining the fund so unappealing for young people that you killed the Fund.

It will take years for your cuts to gradually produce results.

It may also be illegal to accept the same hourly contribution rate from a range of people, but credit them with different dollar accrual amounts depending on their seniority. I just don't know. In any event, the more specifics you give, the more people will hate you.

I'm also not so sure the Trustees and Investment Advisors mismanaged the investments. In retrospect, we know they blew it, but how many would have said they were poor investment choices at the time? Lots of funds and individuals lost money in 2000-2002, just as Central States did.

 

[Bill]

Re: Plan Liabilities: Current vs. Future

What I say makes no sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to the entire financial community. The Assets-Minus-Liabilities-Equals-Net Assets information is taken directly from Form 5500, Schedule H, Part One, Asset and Liability Statement, lines friend, k, and i.

Obviously Net Assets are accumulated for the purpose of paying future retirement benefits. If there is not enough Net Assets on hand, there is a Funding Deficiency. I realize future retirements are a liability of the Fund, but the financial community doesn't include them as a current liability. Instead they report Funding Levels as a seperate matter.

Central States has a major Funding Deficiency, but not as big as you enjoy claiming.

By the way, according to your method, a fully funded plan would be considered flat broke, because its entire Net Assets are earmarked to pay its entire future retirement obligations, without a penny left over.

The way you have it figured, is that the fund has money to pay for the current retirees, but no money for future retirees. Is this why they won't let us retire? You paint a rosy picture of the CS pension fund, but it is just the opposite. Even if I were to agree with you (and I don't), the assets dropped over 3 billion dollars (Schedule H, lines friend,k,i) from the beginning of the year to the end of the year.