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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 84188" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Dboy,</p><p>Your comments on a hybrid system made me think of a nightmare scenario for the IBT but it's a few years down the road and a bit of a longshot but still it's possible. As more and more UPS hourly people get into the 401k system and barring some economic meltdown, you may in the future have the bulk of UPS Teamsters having quite a bit of personal savings under their control and their portability unlike the pension plan. That being the case, the pension may become seen not as a prime source of economic security but rather a gravy on the biscuits kinda thing. </p><p> </p><p>With that type of thinking, then the current fear factor we all have concerning our pensions become lessened and the threat of employees jumping union ships so to speak becomes a more possible threat. I use my on situation as my 401k and the fact that under the current CS situation I've gotta go nearly another 13 years makes it's easier to give thought to other options like APWA. Take my 401k out or make that nearly 13 years a lot less and I'm not giving as much consideration to the APWA idea. Also add in the potential of CS have even larger problems in the future and the APWA idea does give something to consider or at the least for one to ask the all important question of, What If?</p><p> </p><p>The otherside of this coin is two-fold. The first is that the union operates off a pure majority rule and if 50.1% of the members decide one day to walk away from the pension system and move everything say to a 401k system, then what does the other 49.9% do? What does the union itself do?</p><p> </p><p>The second side of this coin, does the union think outside the box and offer an alternative system where you can go either with the traditional pension or elect to place all your eggs into your own hands for transfer in a 401k or other alternative system? </p><p> </p><p>The questions are not easy and they are many but the same can be said of the answers, especially the not easy part. I still believe at this time that the best solution at the moment is to take all current and retired UPSers in the various multi-employer plans and leave them there but pull them away into a seperate class to where all credits paid in are still there but all future contributions from UPSers will stay only there for UPSers and no one else. Also you remove UPS from all liability except for it's own employees. This does several things IMO. It likely gives us a vastly more secure pension system and it likely returns us back to near or at the levels we were prior to the cuts 2 plus years ago. It's possible in the next few years that the pension payouts might even grow and get better. Not a sure thing but possible. For UPS being removed from that larger liability would be a big plus and I also think in the end we would greatly benefit. For one, this whole argument over the pension from all corners would likely go away and we could focus in other areas. </p><p> </p><p>I'll very much listen to all sides in this argument "IF" and only "IF" those talking are UPS people. Unless he/she can offer proof, I do not believe Big Union Idiot is a UPSer. Everyone else here in this discussion to my knowledge are UPSers and their opinion should be taken with great weight even it their position is different from mine or your own. Somewhere in all of this is a good solution but the question is are we will to but our muscle behind it and also place out fears aside and move full steam ahead to make sure we all as UPSers are secure. I'll also say this to Wiley as I said the Skillman and Eason, unless you show me a plan that pulls in the retirees along with the current retirees and either maintain them at current position or better yet make it better, I won't give consideration to the plan. Show me you're thinking of them and then I'll know you're really thinking of me. </p><p> </p><p>Just thinking outside the box just a bit.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 84188, member: 2189"] Dboy, Your comments on a hybrid system made me think of a nightmare scenario for the IBT but it's a few years down the road and a bit of a longshot but still it's possible. As more and more UPS hourly people get into the 401k system and barring some economic meltdown, you may in the future have the bulk of UPS Teamsters having quite a bit of personal savings under their control and their portability unlike the pension plan. That being the case, the pension may become seen not as a prime source of economic security but rather a gravy on the biscuits kinda thing. With that type of thinking, then the current fear factor we all have concerning our pensions become lessened and the threat of employees jumping union ships so to speak becomes a more possible threat. I use my on situation as my 401k and the fact that under the current CS situation I've gotta go nearly another 13 years makes it's easier to give thought to other options like APWA. Take my 401k out or make that nearly 13 years a lot less and I'm not giving as much consideration to the APWA idea. Also add in the potential of CS have even larger problems in the future and the APWA idea does give something to consider or at the least for one to ask the all important question of, What If? The otherside of this coin is two-fold. The first is that the union operates off a pure majority rule and if 50.1% of the members decide one day to walk away from the pension system and move everything say to a 401k system, then what does the other 49.9% do? What does the union itself do? The second side of this coin, does the union think outside the box and offer an alternative system where you can go either with the traditional pension or elect to place all your eggs into your own hands for transfer in a 401k or other alternative system? The questions are not easy and they are many but the same can be said of the answers, especially the not easy part. I still believe at this time that the best solution at the moment is to take all current and retired UPSers in the various multi-employer plans and leave them there but pull them away into a seperate class to where all credits paid in are still there but all future contributions from UPSers will stay only there for UPSers and no one else. Also you remove UPS from all liability except for it's own employees. This does several things IMO. It likely gives us a vastly more secure pension system and it likely returns us back to near or at the levels we were prior to the cuts 2 plus years ago. It's possible in the next few years that the pension payouts might even grow and get better. Not a sure thing but possible. For UPS being removed from that larger liability would be a big plus and I also think in the end we would greatly benefit. For one, this whole argument over the pension from all corners would likely go away and we could focus in other areas. I'll very much listen to all sides in this argument "IF" and only "IF" those talking are UPS people. Unless he/she can offer proof, I do not believe Big Union Idiot is a UPSer. Everyone else here in this discussion to my knowledge are UPSers and their opinion should be taken with great weight even it their position is different from mine or your own. Somewhere in all of this is a good solution but the question is are we will to but our muscle behind it and also place out fears aside and move full steam ahead to make sure we all as UPSers are secure. I'll also say this to Wiley as I said the Skillman and Eason, unless you show me a plan that pulls in the retirees along with the current retirees and either maintain them at current position or better yet make it better, I won't give consideration to the plan. Show me you're thinking of them and then I'll know you're really thinking of me. Just thinking outside the box just a bit. [/QUOTE]
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