Are Democrats Being Stabbed in the Back?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by wkmac, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Well conservatives or at least people who think they are or should say thought they were elected a Congress in 1994' with the mission of making gov't smaller and returning power to the home folks. Instead, they betrayed their trust in the most trecherous of ways in that they became the very persons they had campaigned against. In 2006' that same electorate threw it's hands up and either voted elsewhere or most of them just stayed home.

    So in Jan. 2007' a new sheriff came to town and took over the Congress with high expectations but as the months have plowed on the clarity of vision between the 2 have once again become blurred. Have the democrats now joined the Republicans in betraying their voters?

    Many republicans or I should say conservatives have come to the reality that when you look at the record itself, McCain is not really that much different than Hillary and Obama is not that far off either (contary to the Che flag hanging in one lone campaign office in Houston)and I mean just a pinch instead of talking in feet or yards even. That said, how long before core democrats come to the realization that Hillary and Obama are in the end at the least Neo-Con lites and that the culture of warfare will continue no matter which of these 3 take the White House?

    At this point, I'm hoping for a democratic clean sweep in Nov. so we can get this show on the road and hopefully then more people will begin to wake up and realize we've been had by the 2 parties in power!

  2. diesel96

    diesel96 New Member

    I think so, for example several Democrats voted yea on the FISA bill that grants immunity to telecom companies that cooperated with the Bush administration’s warrantless wiretapping program.

    And then turn around and vote nay on the Dodd Amendment which would have striken the provisions providing immunity from civil liability to the phone companies that show excessive difference to the government.

    Those spineless senate Democrat's that went along with the first vote and nixed the Dodd Amendment. Grow a pair ! And to Joe Lieberman: please put us out of our misery and change parties already
  3. paidslave

    paidslave New Member

    "Many republicans or I should say conservatives have come to the reality that when you look at the record itself, McCain is not really that much different than Hillary and Obama is not that far off either"

    I am not so sure about that.....I surely beleive McCain is definatetly a spin-off of Bush-enomics. Clintons and Bushes are very different breed.

    Bushes are for Oil and indirectly McCain is a croney...Not sure why I feel that way but I do. Honestly I am not so sure what he even stands for but Like most republicans big business, and heck with the middlle or working poor.

    The republican slate for it has brought us enormous debt and grief the last 7.5 years...Enough of this Conservative/Republican view. If Republicans were really conservative we wouldn't have the rediculous deficit that we have. And now we can expect to get $300 bucks back whippee! I am sure that will even be taxed..............what a deal!

    We have been ripped off by these Republican/conservative Idealogy views. All I know is that this view will definately keep us working well into our social security years to pay for the loans of this decade! Thanks Mr. Conservative for keeping us working! I feel as though we are living like Middle Easterns. Very similar, if you own oil wells you are a Commander of Chief. Seems like a monopoly of power to me. But yet our Oil companys are supposedly privately but publicly traded...Something is not adding up here. Isreal is 4th largest producer of oil and one of the richest countrys of the world but yet the citizens are for the most part are very poor. U see the similarity with the this country, and the cronies who give us Sea rashins....

    This Government is way Too big and it always wants us to BAIL it out and still have a huge deficit! Have you Check your wallet and Property taxes lately?

    Sorry if I took a spin on this topic!

    Boy we get a whole lot of nothing for the increases.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2008
  4. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    That has been the key point all along I've tired to make is the republicans ARE NOT conservative in the first place. Not yelling at you Pslave but your point is dead on the money. Conservativism in the paleo-tradition which is a direct descendent of classical liberalism of the 18th century has been displaced not only on the conservative side with autocratic fascism but from it's "classic liberal" traditions has been displaced by destructive monoplistic socialism. The paleo-conservative and in some sense the paleo-liberal IMO never worshipped the super state and empire as the likes of the ones who call themselves Conservative and liberal today. But the good news is both paleo types are finding a brotherhood forming together because of the folks like Ralph Nader, Pat Buchannan and of recent Ron Paul and even Mike Gravel and Dennis Kuchinich so a new political underbelly is starting to emerge from it's primodial soup and this does have some political elites very worried.

    Why? I thought you did very well. Jump in anytime.

    OK, I know I've addressed some comments out of order but I wanted to save this one for last. Sorry, but I can't help but very much disagree with the above and I can site tons of data on this so pull up a chair and I'll do that!
    :rofl: Sorry, I just had to send some people into orbit just to get my jollies off.

    There really is lots of data but I'm not going to post it other than 2 links and here they are. and the other is

    This website is not a conservative one and in fact it's described as a "progressive" website and all our "conservative" friends here will tell you that the word Progressive is secret code for liberal and democrat so in that sense, from the horse's mouth, they call Hillary for example Bush Lite as I have on several occassions. And among traditional liberals, I'm cool with progressive or liberal but liberal like conservative has been highjacked IMO, Hillary is considered a 90% Bush. Obama although he may prove not nearly as empirical as Hillbaby or McCain, he does have problems that leaves one to worry when it came time to stand up to the empire forces that dominate Washington DC as they strip away what little local and State control we have left while at the same time, like destructive locust, they spread to democratize the world with what I call Totalitarian Democracy under US hegemony.

    If Hillbaby was so different, then tell me why she voted for the Kyl-Liberman amendment which declared a part of the Iranian Republican Guard a terrorist organization and as such under current codified law could green light Bush or the next President to invade Iran without consulting Congress. How did Obama vote? He missed the vote entirely. Was that because he was to chicken to go on record? Is this an indication of his strenght as a principled leader? Sure makes me question him. At least Chris Dodd and Joe Biden stood up and voted against and are on record as such and I'm no Biden fan and we are political poles apart but if I were President, Joe Biden and I would share lots of time and kill many pots of coffee because I'd want to hear him out about the Mideast. Even he understands the historical mistakes leading back to the ending of the Ottoman empire and the mistakes made of land division by the British and French that has us in many respects where we are today because of it.

    Sorry paidslave, but IMO the record crys out and very loudly a very different picture than the BS we're being feed by the establishment media and the party and candidate underlings. More and more it is becoming clear that to vote especially for Hillary or McCain would be like voting for GW and Obama may prove in the end not much better but some are remaining hopeful. If given the choice between the 3 and the main issue was global empire, I'd vote Obama as the lesser evil but as of now I'm looking among the 3rd party ranks to cast my vote. May even go Ralph Nader although we do differ on some areas of economics but I think he would at least listen to the idea of ending the quasi-private/public Federal Reserve Bank and it's monetary monopoly. I can't say that about a lot of folks running for President. I even think he's starting to maybe understand the need to return to gold and silver backed currency and it's ability to restrict not only inflation but also the means of Congress and the President to engage in hyper federal debt. End empire and stop the Fed? I'd vote for Ralph just on those 2 issues alone.

    So, there's my take but as they say, opinions are, well, legs, yeah legs! Everyone has them or most do anyway!
  5. Jones

    Jones fILE A GRIEVE! Staff Member

    Good old Ralph Nader:). I remember in the 2000 campaign he was being interviewed on TV, and the interviewer asked him what, in his opinion, was the biggest the difference between Bush and Gore. Nader replied that the only difference between those two was "the speed with which their knees hit the floor when they meet a corporate donor". Nader got my vote that year largely on the strength of that one statement.
  6. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Hey Jones,

    Speaking of Ralph, a piece about open gov't he wrote for Counterpunch published a few days ago.

    I could see where the corporate interests would not want something like this. As a side note, my daughters are musicians and they performed at our State capital yesterday and my job as roadie :happy-very: is to haul, set up gear, set sound levels and tear down but the whole time I was there I felt like I was in the middle of a used car salesman convention. I felt so dirty that I had to take a shower when I got home before I could go to work! That is where gov't is now! Sad, very sad.

    There is also another piece written by John Walsh in Counterpunch about the growing trend underground of traditional paleoliberal/anti-empire progressives/paleoconservatives/libertarians/antiwar folks who are starting to wake up and coming together to talk and share common ideas.

    Also word is Kucinich is under fire from the party bosses because he won't backoff!

    His response to Pelosi:

    Those of you on the democrat side of the isle, wake up! You are being had and the proof is mounting more and more by the day! The term Repubocrat or Demolican is never more true than it is now. The 2 parties exist in the heartland but they are a united front in Washington.

    Wake Up! Wake Up!
  7. paidslave

    paidslave New Member


    I can Honestly say that it seems we ARE all getting in the back or somewhere else. It just makes me sad how much deficit this country is now facing. All in All it just seems like a big master sceme of things to take away any gains you have, stock market, housing ect ect ect.

    You may be correct to say that Clintons and Bushes are similar. This country is coming down like a house of cards fairly quickly. Very similar to the dot-com bubble/stock market bubble of the 90's.

    The reason being is every good thing just comes to an end and we are not happy when it does. I dont see any growth anywhere. As far as Technology ie: the driving force of economics, what other gadget do we need? So to say, where is this economy going without more gadgets and honestly I don't need anymore? The internet was one of the biggest and last big evention/ and cell phones. We have this now, so where do we go? We are in a recession and who sees the end of this.....Clinton, Bush, Obama, Nader, not sure if any one can really help! Monatary policy, print more money and you nailed it on the head back up the dollar with something or we will soon be a third world country!

    The only good that will come out of this election is the worst President in History will be a LAME DUCK! I hope this is okay to say without moderation!

    Good luck to everyone......
  8. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    I think (IMO) history will be much kinder to Bush than most posters and pundits.

    Where do we go from here? ....not more gadgets, but nuclear energy. Shaw Group is my pet investment right now along those lines.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2008
  9. brazenbrown

    brazenbrown New Member

    Democrats are capable of stabbing themselves in the back quite nicely.

    If we can switch from the deficit for a moment to foreign affairs..

    How do the dems explain this when they've constantly given this administration grief for tearing down our relationships and not being friends with everyone anymore?

    Afterall Obama wants to have discussions with Iran and try and work things out...Of course he's all about change, what kind of change who knows...:sick:
  10. paidslave

    paidslave New Member

    Nuclear energy will only benefit the known monoply, ie electric companys. Check your electric bill? We don't burn much coal for this energy anymore and electric bills are almost triple in less than a decade ago.

    Unless you would like to drive around with Nuclear waste in your trunk of your car to fuel it I don't see where it can take the every day JOE!

    Not quite sure how Shaw group can help the starving middle class!


    Sorry but I also disagree how Bush will go down in the history books as one of the biggest cover ups since watergate regarding the invasion of Iraq and mismanagement, creating MASSIVE Federal Budget deficits so massive that you will get your rebate check in the mail! I feel like I am at Wal-mart...I don't want a rebate, I want taxes lowered permanently! Looks like Wallstreet views this as a bandaid to this administrations shortcomings!

    How does a Leader who Executes a Pre-emptive war, based on WMD where none were ever found not be tried for war crimes! I wonder why European Countries Boycott American Made products? Do they hate you and me or a few in office?

    100k deaths not including Americans, are you that gullible?

    This is my opinion unless you share some light! please do your own due diligence!

    On a lighter note, I hope everyone had a great week and God bless the ones and their familys that are in the streets of Iraq serving this administration!

    Last edited: Feb 15, 2008
  11. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

  12. diesel96

    diesel96 New Member

    Back to my grievance with Gw, Republicans and spineless senate Democrats who voted fearfully in favor of a"Police State" and :censored2: on the constitution passing the FISA Bill, but HOLD ON, the house Democrats are starting to get the message and grow a pair standing up to the fear mongerers who want to take your privacy away. The Senate Democrats ought to take some notes from the House Democrats.

    The first three articles of this link will bring you up to speed:

    One other note. Who falls for the Uncle Sam names they give these laws? “The Patriot Act” for one and, is this case, the “Protect America Act”. What we need to Protect America from are those who would decimate our Constitution. Who the hell are they fooling ? Senate Democrats, quit stabbing us in the back !
    WAKE UP ....What you reap---Is what you sow (Rage against the Machine)

  13. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member


    I'm gonna be direct on this and say you may be right and there are those here who just launched through the ceiling of their house at what I said. You may even be a bit in shock yourself.

    OK, here's why but not the way you think. History is typically written by the people who in some sense control it. It's the ole' "History is written by the winners!" Had Hilter for example won WW2 or the British won the American Revolutionary War, our heros and villians would be quite different today. In otherwords, in the case of Bush or Reagan or Clinton or Kennedy or FDR or even Lincoln, we have what I call our mythology. Yes Virginia, we have our own American myths. Even one of my hero's in Thomas Jefferson was not beyond fault in that he wrote and extolled the virtues of human freedom and independence of the individual from the whims and manipulations of groups of men and collectives but then he stood by silent while the passions of democracy entrenched a system of slavery that we still pay for to this day and my guess we will continue to do so for many years to come. As President, he even took liberties that one can only conclude were empire lite at the very least.

    Our founders although great men and great mines were men none the less and had faults. BTW: That same democracy later said that certain people had to ride on the back of the bus and sit upstairs in the movie theater. I remember firsthand going to the Saturday movies with my friends and the puzzled thoughts of why we got (had)to go sit downstairs while a friend of ours had to go sit upstairs. You'll never ever convince me that good ole democracy is as good as so many claim it to be when I've seen firsthand the damage of when individuals aren't allowed to seek their own liberty as they see fit!

    With this, history will only paint Bush to the extent of good or bad as it pertains to the party opertions of politics. In other words, from a republican perspective he will be seen as strong, unmoving in light of larger conventional thinking. In some quarters, he may even be painted as visionary. On the flipside, he will be seen as a stealer of elections, a warhawk and empircial manipulator at the behest of private business interest. And in some quarter, maybe the real culprit of 9/11 itself. All of these things on bothsides we already hear now and going forward it will contend on who is in political power at time as to what we will hear. What gets the most mileage for the agenda being pushed at the time.

    In a funny kind of way, had there been WMD in Iraq, the democrats and the Clinton machine would be in different mode right now claiming ole Bill was the global visionary (Hillary by his side)and that he was scuttled from going after Saddam because the repubs. were protecting their guy (look at the foreign policy record going back to the 60's, CIA backing of the Baathist in coup and Reagan era lovefest with Saddam) by using the Monica affair and impeachment and keeping Bill from being focused on doing his job as Commander in chief. Ole Bill would be trying with all might to steal away GW's place in history and to be honest Bill would have a legit claim to that position. Right now they stand silent hoping beyond all hope we won't look at the 1998' Iraq Liberation Act for example and the fact that a whole lot of the WMD data that Bush used was Clinton era stuff. That's not to blame Bill and give George a pass but is just stating that IMO they are all in bed together in the end. Repubs. use that now as cover to try and soften the blame for botching the whole intel. deal.

    I think is you look deep and look at the current and historical record, Bush will be no better or no worse than those before him. Sure, there will be specific cases of gross shannigans but each adminstration has that. And believe me, I'm no fan of Bush but when you boil it down, what he's done IMO to damage personal liberty in the cause of protecting us from "islamo-fascism" Clinton did his own damage with advancing the cause of Global mechantilism under the behest of the same American Empirical Hegemony that profits from the moves Bush makes now.

    It's all based on how the product is sold, which customer swears by it and which customer loaths it. As some customers love UPS and hate FedEx and visa versa, so it is with politics. If you took the time to look deep at both, you might conclude that in a perfect world you'd use neither but at present in our monopolized world, your other options are DHL and the USPS so what's a girl to do?

    Depending on the outcome over time, I'm sure Bush will be sold to us in some acceptable light, I mean even Nixon now is presented in some manner of good light so I suspect Bush will recieve the same. If you tear down the man completely you risk the population losing faith in the institution so if even in bad times the institution brings forth good, faith is maintained. Hey, cynic to the end am I! :happy2:
    Any contarian views no matter how completely documented will be cast aside as historical revisonism as to mentally suggest to the masses that this unorthodoxy is not worthy of time and consideration for good and proper thinking peoples. The Ron Paul's and Dennis Kucinich's are nutjobs so just stick with the frontrunners and we'll take care of you!

    Also More, I saw on the Global Warming thread a link you posted to the Lew Rockwell site. Are we starting to think in more anarcho-captialist mindset? What next, you extolling the virutes of Rothbardian thought?:happy-very:

    Speaking of history, why don't you take a minute and cruise through this!

    And if you get real brave and you want a 2nd opinion and this time from a so-called liberal himself, check this out. Roosevelt a myth? From a liberal?:surprised:

    It's over 400 pages but worth the read if you are willing to turn the Bobby Darren CD's off for a few minutes a day.
  14. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    OK, you mentioned Obama and Iran. Is that it? Is that all or do you have more examples of democrat destruction? Come on, list more. I'm all eyes and ears and the floor is your's. You're on a roll here so don't stop!

    No joking, I'm serious.

    Waiting to hear from you on this!
  15. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member


    I'm actually not shocked and knew you would agree with me.

    About the rockwell site, it was just a random accident that it held the piece I was looking to post. I thought of you immediately when I noticed the source.

    OT: It's funny how I often think of folks on this site through my daily grind. Yesterday I was reminded of "trplnkl" because I saw a big truck with his avatar as a window sticker. Remember, he has the red, white & blue state of Texas with the shining star on it?
  16. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Hey More,

    There's another article right now at entitled "Forget CO2" concerning Global Warming you might find interesting.

    This is what caught my attention from the piece more than the global warming part.

    Ask me why that sticks out so much and as a woman I think the answer will most interest you. Under Malleus Maleficarum, you yourself might even be considered a witch!

    Come on, I baited the hook so ask me!
  17. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member


    That was good D!

    You know that wide eyed look those kids had as they drank, I can see that from time to time at the AEI website and some of their video's of meetings. Training from their youth I guess.
  18. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    All right, wkmac, I'm asking.

    I AM a witch as are all women.....we be-WITCH you guys all the time !! :wink2:
  19. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Malleus Maleficarum in the latin translated to english "The Hammer of Witches" or in the German "der HexenHammer" and was a edict of the Church issued in 1486' to address the problem with witches and witchcraft. Where is might pose a problem for you is that women who were strong will or opinionated were also considered witches and the edict contained specific instructions to local magistrates on how to question and cause a witch to implicate herself. Waterboarding was completely encouraged as was water dunking!

    The weather angle to witches had more to do that in those days, witches worshipped nature so to speak as the last remnants of Pre-Roman European religions like Druidism were still around. My guess, being that at the time there was a mini ice age and bad weather so the church needing a scapgoat not to mention the desire to rid the competition so to speak, this was as good a time as any to attack witches. HexenHammer (make a good name for metal band and yes there is one) was not so much an original as the authors borrowed much from folks like Torquemada, the grand inquisitor so what he did to jews in Spain only came to be used against nature worshipers and mouthy women a few years later.

    I also found funny that in HexenHammer the authors decreed that women were weaker to sexual desires and could not resist their temptations. Women sexually weaker than men? :surprised::happy-very:
    As so, it was alledged that women were prone to sexual forrays with the devil and his various demons and that these encounters were what turned women to witchcraft. I guess the legend of Lilith just won't die even when the church itself denies it's canonical place!
  20. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    Hexen Hammer....Arm & Hammer.......

    So what you are saying is witches are basically Democrats.


    You know, I'm just kidding, right?

    Thanks for the info.