Bush and America win in Iraq

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
The Thrill Of Victory

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Friday, November 28, 2008 4:20 PM PT

Iraq: Nineteen months after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid declared the war "lost," a freely elected Iraqi Parliament signs a security pact with the United States. We won. It is the terrorists and their appeasers who lost.

While Americans sat down for Thanksgiving dinner deciding what they were thankful for, the Iraqi parliament Thursday passed an agreement with the U.S. that set a date certain for American withdrawal, as war critics wanted. But it was based on conditions on the ground, as the Bush administration insisted.

The conditions on the ground are that the jihadists are a spent force that lost the war as well as the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Province after province has been returned to Iraqi control, and the young Iraqi nation appears both willing and able to defend itself.

Under the terms of the agreement, U.S. forces will withdraw from Iraqi towns and cities by June 30, 2009, and the entire country by Jan. 1, 2012. The deal could still be rejected by the Iraqi people in a referendum scheduled for July 30, a key Sunni demand to get their agreement, but by then U.S. troops will no longer be a visible presence in urban areas.

"This is a historic day for the great Iraqi people," Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said in a 10-minute address on national television. "We have achieved one of its most important achievements in approving the agreement on the withdrawal of foreign forces from Iraq and restoring the sovereignty it lost two decades ago," al-Maliki said, referring to the imposition of sanctions after Operation Desert Storm liberated Kuwait from Saddam Hussein.

"Two years ago, this day seemed unlikely," Bush said in a statement from his retreat at Camp David, Md. "But the success of the surge and the courage of the Iraqi people set the conditions for these two agreements to be negotiated and approved by the Iraqi parliament."

The pact is divided into two agreements governing security, economics, culture and other areas of cooperation.

The pact comes after a report on Iraq's progress that retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, now an adjunct professor of International Affairs at the United States Military Academy at West Point, compiled for his colleagues.

The report concludes: "The United States is now clearly in the end game in Iraq to successfully achieve what should be our principle objectives: the withdrawal of the majority of U.S. ground combat forces . . . in the coming 36 months; leaving behind an operative civil state and effective Iraqi security forces; an Iraqi state which is not in open civil war among the Shia, the Sunnis, and the Kurds; and an Iraqi nation which is not at war with its six neighboring states."

Provisional elections are scheduled for January, district elections for midyear and national elections sometime next December. Of al-Maliki, who, like President Bush, may have been "misunderestimated," McCaffrey says he "clearly has matured and gained stature as a political leader since he assumed his very dangerous and complex leadership responsibilities."

The surge of Gen. David Petraeus, now commander of CENTCOM, took that country from a chaos beyond imagination to a functioning democracy where children walk to school safely, civilians stroll past stocked businesses and old men sit at cafes talking about politics.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates, thankfully kept on by President-elect Obama, presided at Petraeus' retirement ceremony in Baghdad, and told the story of the best command decision a commander in chief has made since Lincoln sacked McClellan, put Grant in charge, and pointed Sherman in the direction of Atlanta.
After Petraeus took charge, Gates noted, "Slowly, but inexorably, the tide began to turn, our enemies took a fearsome beating they will not soon forget. Fortified by our own people and renewed commitment, the soldiers of Iraq found new courage and confidence. And the people of Iraq, resilient and emboldened, rose up to take back their country."

And now Johnny will soon come marching home. We love the smell of victory in the morning.
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
Well that will certainly kill the political careers of several Democratic "leaders ", remember . They { who have no military knowledge } said that the war was lost. That defeat was the only answer. Elect us & we will withdrawl our troops, yet they did not. In fact they did nothing, as the poll numbers have showed, due to their inaction were lower than Bush's .
And people think they & their party of fools can turn this economy around ?
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
Did you know…?
that 47 countries' have
reestablished their embassies in Iraq ?

Did you know…
that the Iraqi government
currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
263 new schools are now under construction;
and 38 new schools have been completed in </SPAN>
Iraq ?

Did you know

that
Iraq 's higher educational structure consists
of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers,
all currently operating?

Did you know

that 25
Iraq students departed for the United States in
January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know

that the Iraqi Navy is operational?
They have 5 - 100-foot patrol craft,
34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know

that
Iraq ' s Air Force consists of three operational squadrons,
Which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft

(under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night,
and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know

that
Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know

that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000
fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know

that there are 5 Police Academies in
Iraq
that produce over 3500 new officers every 8 weeks?

Did you know

there are more than 1100 building projects going on in
Iraq ?
They include 364 sch ools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals,
83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities
and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know

that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5
have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know

that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid
October?

Did you know

that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in20
Iraq
and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know

that
Iraq has an independent media that consists of
75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know

that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know

that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a
televised debate recently?


OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW?

BECAUSE OUR MEDIA WON'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country,
we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib
and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades.

Tragically, the lack of accentuating the positive
in
Iraq serves two purposes:


It is intended to undermine the world's perception
of the
United States thus minimizing consequent support;
and it is intended to discourage American citizens.

----

Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.

http://www.defenselink.mil/

Did you know?

Why I didn't know

But I know now.....

 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
The Thrill Of Victory

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Friday, November 28, 2008 4:20 PM PT

Iraq: Nineteen months after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid declared the war "lost," a freely elected Iraqi Parliament signs a security pact with the United States. We won. It is the terrorists and their appeasers who lost.

Question? How many repetitive false claims by the right as to Iraq being the home of the terrorists that attacked us does it take to convince a Bush Conservative sympathizer.


Well that will certainly kill the political careers of several Democratic "leaders ", remember . They { who have no military knowledge } said that the war was lost. That defeat was the only answer.

Lets not go down that road again....Another Republican myth.....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rod-lurie/the-military-is-more-libe_b_115934.html
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Question? How many repetitive false claims by the right as to Iraq being the home of the terrorists that attacked us does it take to convince a Bush Conservative sympathizer.

Answer: What????? What in the article is your reference for this claim?


Question: Why do the liberals have the desire to fabricate what people say to try and validate their idealism?
 

Sammie

Well-Known Member
Question? How many repetitive false claims by the right as to Iraq being the home of the terrorists that attacked us does it take to convince a Bush Conservative sympathizer.

The decline of Al Qaeda in Iraq (DUE TO PRESIDENT BUSH) will most definitely change the plans of the jihadists in the Middle East and around the world. And, the Iraqi now have more things than they have ever had to enjoy in life. Al Quaeda there is far from dead, and still attempting everything in their power to stamp out the current democratic processes, but they sure seem to be scattering like rats to Pakistan and Afghanistan now, like rodents infesting every room in a house.

And now, Iraq is no longer a training ground for young radicals.

Lack of success in Iraq is not an option for this country, diesel. Those murderers need to know that we will not back down.

Do you have a secret desire for Iraq to fail? It has become a stable, functioning society. Shame on you that you would want this war to be a sham. And that you would prefer the world not to vacation there safely some day. Germany was once very unsafe, as was Thailand...
 

tieguy

Banned
Question? How many repetitive false claims by the right as to Iraq being the home of the terrorists that attacked us does it take to convince a Bush Conservative sympathizer.

I'm not sure why you continue to try to maintain a state of denial after all this time. Attached a link on Zarqwai's death. Zarqawi was clearly the Al-qhaida leader of Iraq and set up shop in Iraq after US forces drove him out of Afghanistan.

It is also know that Hussien allowed a terrorst camp the right to set up a training camp in northern Iraq where they were allowed to practice their heinous techniques on the poor kurds.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/08/iraq.alqaida

and a quote from the article:


"Once the Taliban had been defeated by the 2001 US invasion of Afghanistan, Zarqawi returned to the Middle East and set up in Iraq.
In the past year, he moved his campaign beyond Iraq's borders, claiming to have carried out the triple suicide bombing of hotels in Amman that killed 60 people last November. He also claimed to have carried out other attacks in Jordan and a rocket attack from Lebanon into northern Israel."
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
diesel96
Have you been following the news out of Algiers ?
Those really nice terrorists have come down with an outbreak of the Black Death. It seems that they were making the bugs to be used as a weapon, unfortunately they infected themselves. And they have dismantled those sites and spread the bugs into other camps.

Before you claim " right wing " yada yada, check out the source, A british paper.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Death-was-developing-biological-weapons.html
 
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diesel96

Well-Known Member
Question? How many repetitive false claims by the right as to Iraq being the home of the terrorists that attacked us does it take to convince a Bush Conservative sympathizer.

The decline of Al Qaeda in Iraq (DUE TO PRESIDENT BUSH) will most definitely change the plans of the jihadists in the Middle East and around the world. And, the Iraqi now have more things than they have ever had to enjoy in life. Al Quaeda there is far from dead, and still attempting everything in their power to stamp out the current democratic processes, but they sure seem to be scattering like rats to Pakistan and Afghanistan now, like rodents infesting every room in a house.

And now, Iraq is no longer a training ground for young radicals.

Lack of success in Iraq is not an option for this country, diesel. Those murderers need to know that we will not back down.

Do you have a secret desire for Iraq to fail? It has become a stable, functioning society. Shame on you that you would want this war to be a sham. And that you would prefer the world not to vacation there safely some day. Germany was once very unsafe, as was Thailand...

Please spare me your typical Ditto Head response of questioning people's patriotism and sharing your pity towards them. And please stop spreading ideas that Iraq is soon on it's way to be DisneyWorld. It is common knowledge the myth of Al Queda in Iraq.
http://jobsanger.blogspot.com/2008/04/myth-of-al-queda-in-iraq.html

It is also know that Hussien allowed a terrorst camp the right to set up a training camp in northern Iraq where they were allowed to practice their heinous techniques on the poor kurds.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/14/AR2006091401545.htmlhttp://jobsanger.blogspot.com/2008/04/myth-of-al-queda-in-iraq.html

http://thelonggoodbye.wordpress.com...e-report-and-invent-new-saddam-al-queda-myth/
 

tieguy

Banned
Please spare me your typical Ditto Head response of questioning people's patriotism and sharing your pity towards them. And please stop spreading ideas that Iraq is soon on it's way to be DisneyWorld. It is common knowledge the myth of Al Queda in Iraq.
http://jobsanger.blogspot.com/2008/04/myth-of-al-queda-in-iraq.html


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/14/AR2006091401545.html

http://thelonggoodbye.wordpress.com...e-report-and-invent-new-saddam-al-queda-myth/

I don't see anything here that disputes Zarqawais reign of terroirst terror in Iraq? You can't dispute his existence in Iraq which is a clear link to Al Queda? He fled afghanistan and was openly living in Iraq before the invasion. Are we to believe he was vacationing in Iraq and decided to join Al Queda after the invasion? Sorry can't make that argument because he was clearly linked to the terrorist before he left afghanistan.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
From Council on Foreign Relations website concerning AQI

Introduction

The Bush administration has singled out al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) as a central threat to its efforts to pacify and stabilize Iraq. White House officials and many experts have consistently linked the militant group with the most high-profile terrorist strikes and suicide bombings in Iraq. In an April 2007 speech, Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, called AQI “probably public enemy No. 1” for U.S. forces. In the first seven months of 2007, President Bush highlighted the importance of defeating AQI more than forty times during public speeches. After years of near-constant attention from Washington, the group’s ability to carry out attacks in Iraq appears to have been diminished in 2007, experts say. But AQI is not the only purveyor of violence in Iraq. By the end of 2007, AQI was one among dozens of groups contributing to Iraq’s violence, prompting some to criticize the Bush administration for over-emphasizing the group’s role.


AQI rose to prominence after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. After being released from a Jordanian prison in 1999, Zarqawi reportedly commanded volunteers in Afghanistan before fleeing to northern Iraq in 2001. There he joined with Ansar al-Islam (Partisans of Islam), where he led Ansar’s Arab contingent. Many analysts say it’s this group, and not al-Qaeda, that was the precursor of AQI, though U.S. officials dispute this.

Ahead of the 2003 invasion, U.S. officials made a case before the UN Security Council linking AQI with Osama bin Laden. But a number of experts say it wasn’t until 2004, when Zarqawi vowed obedience to the al-Qaeda leader, that the groups became linked. “For al-Qaeda, attaching its name to Zarqawi’s activities enabled it to maintain relevance even as its core forces were destroyed [in Afghanistan] or on the run,” writes (PDF) Brian Fishman, a senior associate at the Combating Terrorism Center at the United States Military Academy. The relationship eventually broke down, Fishman notes, when Zarqawi ignored al-Qaeda instructions to stop attacking Shiite cultural sites.

Since Zarqawi’s death the organization has become splintered and decentralized. Additional AQI offshoots include the Islamic Army of Iraq, a Sunni-led group that numbers around fifteen thousand members, and the 1920 Revolution Brigades, a Sunni extremist group named for the post-World War I uprising against Britain’s colonial occupation. In addition to AQI, dozens of other unaffiliated extremist groups, armed tribes, and criminal gangs operate (RFE/RL). The proliferation of violent groups has led some to accuse the Bush administration (AP) of putting too much emphasis on the AQI threat to buttress its claims of a foreign-based menace in Iraq.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/14811/

and there's this

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2007/0710.tilghman.html

AQI leader exposed as sham and a fiction

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070719/1a_offlede19.art.htm

In March, he was declared captured. In May, he was declared killed, and his purported corpse was displayed on state-run TV. But on Wednesday, Abu Omar Baghdadi, the supposed leader of an Al Qaeda-affiliated group in Iraq, was declared nonexistent by U.S. military officials, who said he was a fictional character created to give an Iraqi face to a foreign-run terrorist organization.
An Iraqi actor has been used to read statements attributed to Baghdadi, who since October has been identified as the leader of the Islamic State of Iraq group, said U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jul/19/world/fg-iraq19

AQI numbers

Strength
Membership is estimated at 5,000 to 10,000, making it the largest Sunni extremist group in Iraq. AQI perpetrates the majority of suicide and mass casualty bombings in Iraq with foreign operatives constituting the majority of these bombers. The selection of civilian targets, particularly in Baghdad, generates widespread media coverage.

from the Naval Postgraduate School: https://web.archive.org/web/2009102...ics/TerroristProfile/Current/AlQaidaIraq.html

How many make up the number of insurgency?

From a 2005' study

Gen. John Abizaid, the commander of U.S. Central Command, recently stated that the number of Iraqis participating in the insurgency amounts to less than one-tenth of one percent of the country's population, and could be as high as 20,000

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2362

Number of Insurgents detained or killed from May 03' to Nov. 06' see page 16 at the link

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index20061221.pdf

Estimated strength of insurgency in Iraq from Nov. 03' to Oct. 06' see page 17 at above link. See page 18 for estimates of number of foreign fighters in insurgency.

And finally there is this for President Obama to concern himself with and it suggests not all is well in the land of 2 Rivers.

A Top Sunni Survives an Attack in Iraq
By SAM DAGHER
Published: January 21, 2009

BAGHDAD — A senior leader in one of the main Sunni Arab parties participating in the coming provincial elections survived an assassination attempt on Wednesday in Baghdad that left four people dead and 10 others wounded, according to his party and a security official.

The Sunni leader, Ziad al-Ani, dean of the Islamic University and assistant secretary general of the Iraqi Islamic Party, was leaving his campus in Baghdad’s northern Adhamiya district in a well-guarded six-car convoy when a sport utility vehicle loaded with explosives and parked on the street near the gate was detonated, said witnesses and an Interior Ministry official.

“It is a serious sign that the security situation remains below the expectations of the Iraqi citizen,” the party said in a statement condemning the attack.

Both Iraqi and American officials have warned of increased violence in the period before the elections. On Sunday, Hassan Zaidan al-Luhaibi, a Sunni tribal leader and the leader of an electoral coalition in Nineveh and Salahuddin Provinces, was killed by a suicide bomber. On Friday, a Shiite candidate in Babil Province running on a slate fielded by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki was assassinated.

Separately, a teacher in the town of Haswa, south of Baghdad, was killed Wednesday when a bomb placed in his car exploded, the police said. In the northern city of Kirkuk, a roadside bomb intended for a police patrol near a mosque killed a civilian and wounded another, the police said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/world/middleeast/22iraq.html

There are troubling signs underneath the surface that don't bode well longterm for Iraq. And this is why I think Obama will not be able to depart Iraq and he knows this. Now he will face a strong test as he must face the antiwar democrats who really expected real change where none will come!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
News items related to the subject matter.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/27/did-usurpations-work/

and

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=60289

and

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/27/AR2009012703436_pf.html


and

https://web.archive.org/web/20090604160821/http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/60851.html

and

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/world/middleeast/28iraq.html?_r=1&hp

This is just looking across the news for one day as it relates to the subject matter in varying degrees. From a certain POV Iraq maybe shows promise but IMO I'd not call it a win just yet even accepting that POV. They have a long way to go and a long history that suggests being very guarded with such polly anna optimism as to declare the issue a win.

jmo
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
SAMMIE,

you posted this
:"The decline of Al Qaeda in Iraq (DUE TO PRESIDENT BUSH) will most definitely change the plans of the jihadists in the Middle East and around the world. And, the Iraqi now have more things than they have ever had to enjoy in life. Al Quaeda there is far from dead, and still attempting everything in their power to stamp out the current democratic processes, but they sure seem to be scattering like rats to Pakistan and Afghanistan now, like rodents infesting every room in a house.

And now, Iraq is no longer a training ground for young radicals.

Lack of success in Iraq is not an option for this country, diesel. Those murderers need to know that we will not back down.

Do you have a secret desire for Iraq to fail? It has become a stable, functioning society. Shame on you that you would want this war to be a sham. And that you would prefer the world not to vacation there safely some day. Germany was once very unsafe, as was Thailand... "

Its a shame that 6 years later, you have seemed to miss the bus on IRAQI intelligence (post invasion).

Lets begin with this GEM:"The decline of Al Qaeda in Iraq (DUE TO PRESIDENT BUSH) will most definitely change the plans of the jihadists in the Middle East"

Somehow, you "generalize" the term jihadists as if they are all one in the same. JIHADISTS is not a group. Its a religious term. When a muslim faction declares a jihad, its has a religious implication, not an affiliation with a certain people.

This is the problem with right wing propaganda. Those dumb enough to get their news from FAUX news or any right wing talk show wacko believes that a JIHADIST is a group. Sort of like when BUSHED starting using the term "ISLAMO FASCIST" until he was scolded by the SAUDI's and told NOT to use it again, and it quickly disappeared.

Where were the Al qaeda training camps in IRAQ? THis myth has already been debunked by the congress and every investigative outfit in the states. You were sold a story about al qaeda cause its was an easy sell for people who are NOT intelligent enough to do some homework.

Since we invaded Al Qaeda, they have grown over 10 times larger around the world. They have not been affected in numbers, financing or leadership in the 6 years weve been in IRAQ. ANYONE who claims otherwise is an un-informed boob.

Its a fact, Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda had NO TIES, NO AGREEMENTS and NO TRAINING camps in IRAQ.

Now, just because our president and his guides told us they did, that did not make it true.

This next statement is the biggest joke: And, the Iraqi now have more things than they have ever had to enjoy in life."

Man, you guys are still in lala land. How about some iraqi communities have not had electricity in 5 years? How about they have to be rationed power for 2 hours a day? How about the lack of fresh water? Again, rationing to cities and towns. How about the 90% unemployment rate currently in IRAQ? I know, were fixing that by making them all policemen.

How about the destruction of all their cities and infrastructure? NO safe roads, no markets stocked with goods like they had before the war.

How about the fact they all live in total fear now that we unleashed the horror of sectarian violence upon their country because we had NO idea what would happen once we destroyed the goverment?

Dont be an idiot.

You will NEVER, EVER, EVER get the truth from HANNITY, RUSH, LAURA INGRAHAM, JASON LEWIS or BILL ORIELLY. You will get a distorted, blurred and false picture of reality in IRAQ.

As I have said many times before, If you truly believe that taking out training grounds for YOUNG RADICALS and JIHADISTS, then you need to begin with SAUDI ARABIA.

This is where the majority of the funding for all the religious fundamentalists comes from. As each of the thousands of muslim groups from Egypt to Pakistan call for a "JIHAD" or holy war against the usa, this would mean nothing if it werent for the billions SAUDI ARABIA spends in funding these groups.

As for your beloved IRAQ war of success, do me a favor, as an american, take a look at the FACTS. Take some time and step out of that right wing loney bin and watch this video. ITs called NO END IN SIGHT. A documentary about the IRAQ war, starring all the players in the war itself.

Not some made up docu-drama, this is the real deal, the real players. Listen to each of these former BUSHED people talk about the failures in IRAQ. No one in this video is making the claims YOU or AV8 make, and these guys were in charge. Take the time, dont be afraid, it wont hurt you to know the truth.

Every good american has the right to the truth.
 
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wkmac

Well-Known Member
Sammie,

Check out some these articles concerning Al Qaeda and in the case of the Wiki articles, refer to footnotes and external links for in depth background.

Iraqi Insurgency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency

Al Qaeda in the Phillipines
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9365/

AQI Iraq Strenght and Activity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_in_Iraq#Strength_and_activity

From Rand Corp. Beyond Al Qaeda, The Global Jihadist Movement
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG429/

Executive Summary of the above
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2006/RAND_MG429.sum.pdf

Al Qaeda is not something to be ignored by any stretch but I think if you read about the organization from a variety of sources, you get a sense that Al Qaeda specifically in itself may not be all that big but the idea of it is what has grown. Even more dangerous is that what is out there now have fractured into a 1000 pieces and decisions on actions don't involve a central command but rather comes from local leadership. Phillipines being one good example.

If anything Osama may be more a propoganda figurehead and opportunist than anything else. Even he (not being the mastermind behind 9/11) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/14/AR2007031402102.html has embraced the well worn and used Bush adminstration myth for his own causes but this doesn't mean he serves no purpose that can't be dangerous in the long run.

AQI IMO was small potatoes in Iraq and in fact was nothing more than small amounts of puss in the larger open wound of sectarian civil war betwen the Shia and Sunni. This region has a long history of millenia of this type of civil/tribal strife and no amount of american effort IMO will ever stop it. As sad as it to say this, Saddam's brutal approach is probably in the end about the only way to make thse people play nice under a single gov't. This is also the reason our gov't have built numerous military installations there including the most massive embassy of any nation on the planet.

We will not leave Iraq any time soon and President Obama knows this. His only hope at the moment is be successful on the many domestic issues and maybe quieting things with Iran because he knows at some point the antiwar left will backlash against him from his inaction in Iraq and esculation in Afghanistan. If he can win over some moderate Republicans/independents he may offset the negatives on his extreme left and negate their loss of support. He's following the Reagan model exactly and love him or hate him, he's a sharp political cookie!

As for Iraq, the biggest threat in that whole process IMO were former out of power Baathists who for there own power reasons took up the fight across the entire cross section of various insurgent groups operating in the Iraq theater. Much of the violence even now IMO are these former operatives along with other Sunni Arabs who are in the minority who fear the Shia majority taking over Iraq. Saudi Arabia is also fearful of this and this most likely explains why a larger % of Iraq insurgents are Sunni's from the Arabian pennisula. This in nothing new but in fact a centuries if not mellenia old fight. We just don't know history and therefore suspect to political manipulation by those in power who see a $ to be made out of all this!

JMO
 

Sammie

Well-Known Member
SAMMIE,

you posted this

Its a shame that 6 years later, you have seemed to miss the bus on IRAQI intelligence (post invasion).

Lets begin with this GEM:"The decline of Al Qaeda in Iraq (DUE TO PRESIDENT BUSH) will most definitely change the plans of the jihadists in the Middle East"

Somehow, you "generalize" the term jihadists as if they are all one in the same. JIHADISTS is not a group. Its a religious term. When a muslim faction declares a jihad, its has a religious implication, not an affiliation with a certain people.

I'm fully aware of the term jihadist. I was using it in this post, and perhaps inappropriately to some, in reference to those who commence inappropriate warfare on behalf of the Islamic faith. 'Jihad' also means fighting for God and fighting for rights and striving to live a good life by fighting injustice and oppression, but the usage of this word has violent and non violent connotations and can go in many directions.

Soon after 9/11, my son, then in junior high, came home using some
Middle Eastern terms that got my goat. Wanting him to respect
other religions but not knowing beans about them myself, I made appointments and took him to a Hindu temple, a Buddist temple and
a Muslim mosque here in Denver. We watched their services and interviewed the Imam at the mosque. According to him, jihad refers to resisting evil, whether it be armed aggression or one person struggling against unwanted drives and desires.


Where were the Al qaeda training camps in IRAQ? THis myth has already been debunked by the congress and every investigative outfit in the states. You were sold a story about al qaeda cause its was an easy sell for people who are NOT intelligent enough to do some homework.

Once again, I posted this you tube clip once already, but listen to it. Al Gore chastising Bush I for not coming down harder on Iraq.


[video=youtube;9JE48XHKG64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JE48XHKG64[/video]


Its a fact, Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda had NO TIES, NO AGREEMENTS and NO TRAINING camps in IRAQ.

According to the Pentagon and Institute for Defense Analysis, who most likely have a tad more info than you do, 600,000 documents were found in Iraq after we invaded, proving that Saddam was more than willing to use terrorism to target Americans. He would work closely with jihadist organizations throughout the Middle East. For starters,

In 1993, Saddam agreed to train commandos from the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, who assassinated Anwar Sadat. This group was created by Al Qaeda's second-in-command, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Also in 1993, Saddam ordered his intelligence service to "form a group to start hunting Americans present on Arab soil; especially Somalia." At this time, Al Qaeda was also working with warlords against American forces there.

Now, just because our president and his guides told us they did, that did not make it true.

Our president and his guides.
And you're telling me to educate myself.
How about those presidents and their guides?
As you may recall, the issue with Iraq began with Daddy Bush, who passed it onto Clinton, who passed it onto Baby Bush. What about the Saddam/terrorist connections claimed by the Clinton admin and their references to WMD? In 1998 Congress passed the Iraq Liberation Act, calling for the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime due to crimes against humanity, genocide, and other criminal violations of international law. Now why would they go and do a thing like that?

Because Iraq was charged with invading Iran on September 22, 1980, and using chemical weapons against Iranian troops.

In February, 1988 Iraq "forcibly relocated Kurdish civilians from their home villages in the Anfal campaign, killing an estimated 50,000 to 180,000 Kurds, and on March 16, used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurdish civilian opponents in the town of Halabja and killing an estimated 5,000".

Now in my book, don't know about yours, a weapon of mass destruction
can kill large numbers of humans with nuclear, biological, chemical and radiological weapons. Hmmm....





This next statement is the biggest joke: And, the Iraqi now have more things than they have ever had to enjoy in life."

Man, you guys are still in lala land. How about some iraqi communities have not had electricity in 5 years? How about they have to be rationed power for 2 hours a day? How about the lack of fresh water? Again, rationing to cities and towns. How about the 90% unemployment rate currently in IRAQ? I know, were fixing that by making them all policemen.

Under Saddam, everybody knew someone who had been killed under his regime.

How about the destruction of all their cities and infrastructure? NO safe roads, no markets stocked with goods like they had before the war.

Their infrastructure had long been neglected way before we got there, and it will take time to clean up 35 years of disregard shown to the Iraqi people.

How about the fact they all live in total fear now that we unleashed the horror of sectarian violence upon their country because we had NO idea what would happen once we destroyed the goverment?

They're watching their country change from a dictatorship to a democracy, which isn't easy. It's called history and you should check into it when you have a moment.

The new democracies and those still in the making; Kazakhstan, Greece, Portugal, South Korea, Taiwan, Turkey, (right now the only Muslim democracy) Tunisia and Brazil didn't happen overnight. They were long and difficult roads also.


Saddam was another Stalin. And if your liberal mindset was in place during WWII, we'd be reading this thread in German. What a shame that the American news media continually portrays this war as lost, to make W. look bad when he was in, and shows only the bad news, never the good...

Those of your persuasion fail to realize that there is evil in this world and not confronted, the free world will cease to exist.

Dont be an idiot.

Love you, too! :love-very:
 

Sammie

Well-Known Member
P.S. - I realize that American successes are dished up in the paper all the time, but least we forget,




Countries Free or Working Towards It,



Courtesy of the U.S.A.



Afghanistan


Albania


Algeria


Austria


Belgium


Bulgaria


Czechoslovakia


Croatia


Denmark


Egypt


Estonia


Finland


France


Germany


Greece


Hungary


Indonesia


Iraq


Italy


Japan


Kosovo


Kuwait


Latvia


Libya


Lithuania


Luxembourg


Montenegro


Morocco


Netherlands


New Guinea


Norway


Panama


Poland


Romania


Russia


Serbia


South Korea


Thailand


Tunisia


Ukraine


Saving Their Butts, Whether Some Of You Like It Or Not....
 
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wkmac

Well-Known Member
Iraq bloodshed rises as US allies defect

IRAQ is threatened by a new wave of sectarian violence as members of the “Sons of Iraq” – the Sunni Awakening militias that were paid by the US to fight Al-Qaeda – begin to rejoin the insurgency.

If the spike in violence continues, it could affect President Barack Obama’s pledge to withdraw all combat troops from Iraqi cities by the end of June. All US troops are due to leave the country by 2012.

A leading member of the Political Council of Iraqi Resistance, which represents six Sunni militant groups, said: “The resistance has now returned to the field and is intensifying its attacks against the enemy. The number of coalition forces killed is on the rise.”

The resistance council recently issued a call to disaffected Sons of Iraq to take up arms against US and Iraqi troops after the government of Nouri al-Maliki failed to integrate them into the national security forces.

The US had been paying nearly 100,000 Sons of Iraq to participate in its security “surge”, but handed over responsibility for their welfare to the Iraqi government last month. Their pay has since dried up. Only 5,000 members of the Awakening have been employed by the Iraqi security forces.
 
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