Calculated Gamble

QKRSTKR

Well-Known Member
Two letters for u. IE. They can't be wrong. So it must be the driver. And I will also say sometimes it is the driver. But!

There are some rtes that are absoulutly broken. Long ago when I was a swing driver, How can I be an hr. under on a rte Mon. & run a different rte Tues., work harder and be an hr over. There is no explanation for that.
 

Bubblehead

My Senior Picture
Two letters for u. IE. They can't be wrong. So it must be the driver. And I will also say sometimes it is the driver. But!

There are some rtes that are absoulutly broken. Long ago when I was a swing driver, How can I be an hr. under on a rte Mon. & run a different rte Tues., work harder and be an hr over. There is no explanation for that.




This scenario is exactly the question I'm asking.
Coincidence or calculated gamble?
 

Bubblehead

My Senior Picture
I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy. Route standards vary because the time studies are imperfect, and individual performance varies because people are different. In general, I don't think it's any more than that.

We know this to be true, both driver and management, yet nothing is done to fix it.
Negligence or calculated gamble?
 

tarbar66

Well-Known Member
Some possibilities, based on my center and experience.

1) Driver A, runs all Air stops first, then goes back to the start of route and pretty much follows EDD. Driver B, Plans his morning and Air stops and derives a plan where he can get off a lot of ground while doing Air's. Starts in EDD where ever his last Air stop was and runs route from there. In this scenario, driver B will run route with less stops due to delivering grounds with air's at a bulk stop and not running the miles up.

2) Driver A, comes in at the start time, closes truck doors and heads out with a truck not loaded properly due to lack of training and understanding from the loader. Driver B, Comes in early and sets up truck and plans his day. In this case (all things being equal) Driver A will have a higher dispatch, but will probably run scratch or even over, while driver B will have a lower dispatch but run under.

3) Driver A, center knows that the driver can only handle X amount of stops to be under 9.5. Driver B, Center knows that they can add sections and stops as the driver works for free setting up truck, skips lunch and runs. In this case Driver B will have a bigger dispatch.

You mix all this together, and the guy who works for free, skips lunch, added stops on truck due to history of returning early, poor customer service, not filling out info notices, for a sig required. Rings bell and runs back to truck and speeds off in 3 seconds, cheats on pick up windows, runs, does not follow methods, prerecords stops in the AM, sits on seat belt to avoid telematics, deliver grounds to a business when making pick up at 4pm will have a higher dispatch and will run way under. did I miss anything?

I think you covered 90% of the possibilities.

Enjoy your weekend!
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
We know this to be true, both driver and management, yet nothing is done to fix it.
Negligence or calculated gamble?
I'm not sure that it's either, but maybe calculated gamble in some sense. I think that the company is willing to accept the imperfections in exchange for having a verifiable standard of work measurement. I don't think the company purposely plans for some routes to have easier standards than others. I think that the company would prefer to have a "perfect" time study system that would result in the same driver generating the same amount of over/under regardless of what route he ran as long the same methods were used and the same effort applied, because that would make it much easier for them to hold individual drivers accountable for their numbers.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
[/COLOR]


This scenario is exactly the question I'm asking.
Coincidence or calculated gamble?

"Coincidence" means the occurence of a lucky or fortuitous event. And to "gamble" means to risk something upon an event whose outcome is uncertain.

There are few, if any, coincidences at UPS and nothing happens by chance. The system that is in place for dispatching routes and creating time "allowances" has been in use for decades and is constantly being refined. It is part of a carefully calculated plan to maximize the number of hours of labor that the company can get for free. Those who try to argue the "fairness" of a specific route or allowance are completely missing the underlying point; as a whole, the time allowances for each center were never intended to be fair or realistic in the first place. They were specifically designed to maximize profits by creating a "standard" that can only be met by working off of the clock. The handful of "bonus" routes in each center are no different from the slot machines at a casino that occasionally hit a jackpot; for every dollar paid out there are 3 or 4 going in and in the end the house always wins.
 

UPSGUY72

Well-Known Member
UPS doesn't really care about over under. It all about stops per car and cutting routes. Some accounting wizard did some creative accounting and figured out that they save money by cutting routes even if it leads to more OT $ being paid then would have for another driver to work 8 hrs. The creative accounting comes from them adding Driver pay, benefits, cost of fuel, estimated maintenance $ for each vehicle that day, insurance liability that day for each vehicle and driver, ETC.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
I'm not sure that it's either, but maybe calculated gamble in some sense. I think that the company is willing to accept the imperfections in exchange for having a verifiable standard of work measurement. I don't think the company purposely plans for some routes to have easier standards than others. I think that the company would prefer to have a "perfect" time study system that would result in the same driver generating the same amount of over/under regardless of what route he ran as long the same methods were used and the same effort applied, because that would make it much easier for them to hold individual drivers accountable for their numbers.

Time is money.

We work for a company that made a calculated business decision that our lives and our health were not worth the expense of equipping the vehicles with 3 pt seat belts or power steering.

Is it logical to assume that that same company would then turn around and create time standards that were fair and realistic enough to allow its employees to take their lunches and breaks?

The arithmetic is simple. 9 drivers who skip lunch=one less route dispatched=one less vehicle on the road=one less employee on the payroll=one less benefit package to pay for. We are talking about many tens of millions of dollars per year nationwide that is at stake. The very last thing that the company wants is for its drivers to be operating under realistic standards.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Time is money.

We work for a company that made a calculated business decision that our lives and our health were not worth the expense of equipping the vehicles with 3 pt seat belts or power steering.

Is it logical to assume that that same company would then turn around and create time standards that were fair and realistic enough to allow its employees to take their lunches and breaks?

The arithmetic is simple. 9 drivers who skip lunch=one less route dispatched=one less vehicle on the road=one less employee on the payroll=one less benefit package to pay for. We are talking about many tens of millions of dollars per year nationwide that is at stake. The very last thing that the company wants is for its drivers to be operating under realistic standards.
The OP was talking about variances in the time standards and by perfect I didn't mean fair or realistic, I meant a system that would generate consistent results (versus the system that is in place now). Whether those results are fair or not is another issue.
 

rod

Retired 22 years
Because 8 out of 10 times it is true !!! If you have been around here long enough you will know that !! With all of Rods years of experience and mine I find this to be a true statement !!!

I would even say 9 out of 10 times. P.S. If you are lucky enough to actually get a decent time study and can for the most part run scratch enjoy it while it lasts. From what I experienced UPS don't like a route whose numbers are attainable by a "by the book" driver.
 

hellfire

no one considers UPS people."real" Teamsters.-BUG
there is no such thing as a perfect system, its a combination of driver work-pace and inconsistent allowances, its a flawed system that will never be fixed, its making ups tons of money.
 

Pkgrunner

Till I Collapse
One glaring variable which I assume that all time studies overlook is the package car itself. Not all cars are equal, as we all know. Since the implementation of PAS/EDD, it has become more difficult to have the right car for all the different types of delivery areas.

The majority of the delivery area I now service(are we still allowed to use that word?:wink2:), was last "physically" time studied in a p32. The virtual time study was conducted when the area was serviced in a p57. That entire "route" has since been permanently eliminated and consumed by my route. Unfortunately, I am in a p7 which is nowhere near as nimble as a p32 or p57, yet the time standards set by the two former vehicles in their time studies remains in place. I am essentially driving a school bus on golf-cart sized roads now.
To add insult to injury, the 90ish stops I got pushed onto lost 50 virtual minutes; while the 90 or so stops I got pushed off of gained 15 virtual minutes.
 

just_a_number

Well-Known Member
i am a cover driver...i dont speed i dont run i work by the methods and i take my lunch and breaks...i just had a observation done where i was commended by my sup(as shocking as that may sound but he did) on how efficent i was working and i was very smooth...and im atleast an hour scratch on a daily basis....so u cant say that all cover drivers work like idiots...in my opinion its the individual driver
 

brownmonster

Man of Great Wisdom
It's the same in factories that have piecework. One guy can make 100 widgets an hour and another can only make 75. Some guys have photographic memories and are delivery machines that waste no time. The slow driver I was talking about used to take 45 minutes to deliver his first stop of about 100 packages. The rest of us get it done in 10 minutes.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Time is money.

We work for a company that made a calculated business decision that our lives and our health were not worth the expense of equipping the vehicles with 3 pt seat belts or power steering.

Is it logical to assume that that same company would then turn around and create time standards that were fair and realistic enough to allow its employees to take their lunches and breaks?

The arithmetic is simple. 9 drivers who skip lunch=one less route dispatched=one less vehicle on the road=one less employee on the payroll=one less benefit package to pay for. We are talking about many tens of millions of dollars per year nationwide that is at stake. The very last thing that the company wants is for its drivers to be operating under realistic standards.

Of course, the math works exactly as you say. 9 drivers skipping lunch means one less driver on road than is necessary.

Then again, the math also works the other way. 9 drivers taking just 30 seconds more per stop than is required means one more driver on the road than is necessary.

I have never accused drivers of purposely slowing down. I know that some do, but the majority work hard.

Its funny how others just asume the opposite when it comes to the company and management.
 
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hellfire

no one considers UPS people."real" Teamsters.-BUG
Of course, the math works exactly as you say. 9 drivers skipping lunch means one less driver on road than is necessary.

Then again, the math also works the other way. 9 drivers taking just 30 seconds more per stop than is required means one more driver on the road than is necessary.

I have never accused drivers of purposely slowing down. I know that some do, but the majority work hard.

Its funny how others just asume the opposite when it comes to the company and management.
ok, you seem to grasp the whole concept that there are flawed time studies and flawed dispatches,, problem is,the vast majority of drivers have to carry this burden,, really,, whose fault is it?? at what point is it okay for the drivers to have to deal with flawed system? You blame operations,, the dispatcher,, but the only person being penalized in the real world, not paper,, is the driver , on a side note,, as a bonus driver runner pro management person,, its getting bad,, real bad
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
ok, you seem to grasp the whole concept that there are flawed time studies and flawed dispatches,, problem is,the vast majority of drivers have to carry this burden,, really,, whose fault is it?? at what point is it okay for the drivers to have to deal with flawed system? You blame operations,, the dispatcher,, but the only person being penalized in the real world, not paper,, is the driver , on a side note,, as a bonus driver runner pro management person,, its getting bad,, real bad

I guess I'm not sure how to respond...

Yes, the system is flawed.... No system is perfect.

Yes, when things are improperly managed, its almost always the drivers to take the brunt.

Yes, I do blame local management. Its their plan and when the day is done, they are responsible for the result.

With the exception of a handful of individuals, its never the drivers' fault.

So, I am not disagreeing with you, but....

With all that being said, it does NOT add up to a 50 year old conspiracy.
 

Old International

Now driving a Sterling
It's all in how you work. On my rural route, I would sort my car after my last big bulk stop. I would my stops lined up in my head, and if I saw one of my out of town stops in town, I would give them their package. Save time. Then on the way home, I would take which ever route that would give my my miles back- BUT I WAS HEADING TOWARD THE CENTER. This gave me an avg of 7 tenths under every day.
 

Bubblehead

My Senior Picture
It's all in how you work. On my rural route, I would sort my car after my last big bulk stop. I would my stops lined up in my head, and if I saw one of my out of town stops in town, I would give them their package. Save time. Then on the way home, I would take which ever route that would give my my miles back- BUT I WAS HEADING TOWARD THE CENTER. This gave me an avg of 7 tenths under every day.

That system will get a driver at todays UPS fired for dishonesty.
 
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