The same over-zealous Management teams that use every trick in the book to score high on a Keter Audit, probably also use every trick in the book to make their accident and injury rates appear low. A student who got a B+ on a Math exam by cheating, probably also got that B+ in Science by cheating as well.
Can UPS fire a driver for not knowing Ketter verbatim?
- Thread starter ups1990
- Start date
The same over-zealous Management teams that use every trick in the book to score high on a Keter Audit, probably also use every trick in the book to make their accident and injury rates appear low. A student who got a B+ on a Math exam by cheating, probably also got that B+ in Science by cheating as well.
Anonymous 10
Guest
There is N O chance
cosmictrucker
counting the months
What's the first rule of "backing"?
Don't back.
As a Feeder driver (tractor trailer), Backing is essential to performing my job on a daily basis. Maybe a package car driver could perform his/her job without backing more than once or twice, but as a tractor trailer driver, it's darn near impossible. Instead of training to a higher standard, this company will attempt to idiot proof our jobs by dreaming up these crack policies.
My main point is most of the commentary points have little to do with the reality of performing my job safely and realistically in today's environment. (east coast, mid atlantic driving population around DC, Baltimore,Philly,Richmond...)
I have over 25 yrs under my belt with zero avoidable accidents. I'm unable to recite from memory, and never will be.
As a side note:
I earned a Private Helicopter Pilot license a few years ago . At no point during my training was I required to memorize anything to the extent of what is being asked of me now. As a pilot, you use a check list, and all pre flight steps are performed from that list, not from memory. For what it's worth.
Don't back.
As a Feeder driver (tractor trailer), Backing is essential to performing my job on a daily basis. Maybe a package car driver could perform his/her job without backing more than once or twice, but as a tractor trailer driver, it's darn near impossible. Instead of training to a higher standard, this company will attempt to idiot proof our jobs by dreaming up these crack policies.
My main point is most of the commentary points have little to do with the reality of performing my job safely and realistically in today's environment. (east coast, mid atlantic driving population around DC, Baltimore,Philly,Richmond...)
I have over 25 yrs under my belt with zero avoidable accidents. I'm unable to recite from memory, and never will be.
As a side note:
I earned a Private Helicopter Pilot license a few years ago . At no point during my training was I required to memorize anything to the extent of what is being asked of me now. As a pilot, you use a check list, and all pre flight steps are performed from that list, not from memory. For what it's worth.
Chnandler Bong
Well-Known Member
So I might have been exaggerating when I referenced studying for the Bar exam, but the principle remains. At one point, we all had to memorize the Gettysburg Address, but could we do it day in and day out? I just wish the union would stand up and call it what it is....harassment!
For years we used to have to answer short, concise questions like...."what do you do if you have a leaking package on area". And hazmat training is done on an annual (not random) basis and does not require excessive memorization. When will they realize that the jump in accidents and injuries coincides with the increase in workload and decrease in time allowance? Again....where is this stuff in our negotiated contract?
For years we used to have to answer short, concise questions like...."what do you do if you have a leaking package on area". And hazmat training is done on an annual (not random) basis and does not require excessive memorization. When will they realize that the jump in accidents and injuries coincides with the increase in workload and decrease in time allowance? Again....where is this stuff in our negotiated contract?
Catatonic
Nine Lives
Not down here in Jawja!
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
The issue is not whether the company should expect us to have basic safety knowledge. Of course we should have it, and the various steps and keys and commentaries are probably useful things to know.
The issue...is whether the company should be able to arbitrarily dictate a condition of employment that is not spelled out in the labor agreement or required by law.
Do we really want the company to be able to invent whatever tests or quizzes or word games that it chooses to, and then fire us for failing to score 100% on them?
The issue...is whether the company should be able to arbitrarily dictate a condition of employment that is not spelled out in the labor agreement or required by law.
Do we really want the company to be able to invent whatever tests or quizzes or word games that it chooses to, and then fire us for failing to score 100% on them?
22.34life
Well-Known Member
its a lot of tough talk and no follow through,and even if they did follow through it would never stick.
BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
Point being, who is actually being fired for not being able to recite the bla bla bla verbatim?
No one.
Other point being, is it that fracking hard to recite the nickles and dimes?
Everyone's making this out to be some sort of terminator test where you need to recite all ten commandments and every single one of the bill of rights plus all of the amendments to the constitution etc. etc.
Get over it y'all.
Everyone likes to talk about how they aren't just dumb truck drivers, here's your chance to shine!
Go back and re-read my original post...of course it's kindergarten, but let's beat them at their own game...dear lord people, it's easy, and not just for me...don't tell me that you can make well reasoned, rational posts on the BC time and time again, but you can't remember the 5 & 10's.
IT'S WHAT WE ACTUALLY DO EVERY DAY.
What is the problem? There are requirements in every job that employees must adhere to. Are they sometimes kindergarten? Absolutely.
Don't think for a minute that your supervisors don't go through the same kindergarten crap, and don't think for a minute that any of our supervisors take pleasure in treating us like kindergartners.
It would be the same thing if I said "I can't believe they make us shave" or "I can't believe they make us wear clean clothes to work".
Pick your battles. In my opinion, this isn't one of them.
No one.
Other point being, is it that fracking hard to recite the nickles and dimes?
Everyone's making this out to be some sort of terminator test where you need to recite all ten commandments and every single one of the bill of rights plus all of the amendments to the constitution etc. etc.
Get over it y'all.
Everyone likes to talk about how they aren't just dumb truck drivers, here's your chance to shine!
Go back and re-read my original post...of course it's kindergarten, but let's beat them at their own game...dear lord people, it's easy, and not just for me...don't tell me that you can make well reasoned, rational posts on the BC time and time again, but you can't remember the 5 & 10's.
IT'S WHAT WE ACTUALLY DO EVERY DAY.
What is the problem? There are requirements in every job that employees must adhere to. Are they sometimes kindergarten? Absolutely.
Don't think for a minute that your supervisors don't go through the same kindergarten crap, and don't think for a minute that any of our supervisors take pleasure in treating us like kindergartners.
It would be the same thing if I said "I can't believe they make us shave" or "I can't believe they make us wear clean clothes to work".
Pick your battles. In my opinion, this isn't one of them.
soberups
Pees in the brown Koolaid
Most people...myself included...are justifiably angered by hypocritical behavior.
It is hypocritical for a company to threaten its employees with termination for failing to recite a word game...when that same company has utterly failed to provide its employees with safe equipment, safe facilities, and a safe workload.
I do not choose to voluntarily participate in any of UPS's so-called "safety programs"....because by participating in them I validate them.
BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
No doubt.
I entirely agree.
I'm not sure a single person has ever been fired for failing to recite the 5 & 10's etc. verbatim.
Even with the Keter guys, if you are pretty close to the intent of the bla bla blah's (mix them up, out of order, not verbatim but close to the point of the whatever you are trying to verbalize), it's not a problem.
Hell, it's not a problem if you can't recite %%%!
You certainly won't get fired for it!
That wasn't my point.
Management can and will threaten us with discipline or termination for each and every small thing under the sun, most of which is %%%%.
My point was that in this job that we have, which we work very hard at, from time to time we may be asked to perform certain duties. Some of which may seem so ridiculous and absurd that it will make our heads shake with wonder and disgust.
Nevertheless, we must work as directed.
Which is why I say, beat them at their own silly games.
The 5 & 10's are actually good advice.
Know them cold and don't give your management team (if they're the sort to pull the trigger on these types of things) a leg to stand on.
It's so goofy, but if they told us to spin around three times on one leg before entering the package car, that is certainly their right as our employers.
Is it dumb as hell? Absolutely.
cosmictrucker
counting the months
I'm happy for you. I wish it was that easy for me too. But it's not.
I know of drivers who excelled at reciting the Points, but also were later involved in serious on road crashes. I know one guy in particular who was very cocky (similar to your attitude) about how easy it was to recite verbatim, but was later involved in a serious on road roll over in a Feeder.
Reciting the Points proves nothing other than a gift of memory for such acts. Having a multi year safety record is proof enough the driver is doing something right.
I know of drivers who excelled at reciting the Points, but also were later involved in serious on road crashes. I know one guy in particular who was very cocky (similar to your attitude) about how easy it was to recite verbatim, but was later involved in a serious on road roll over in a Feeder.
Reciting the Points proves nothing other than a gift of memory for such acts. Having a multi year safety record is proof enough the driver is doing something right.
brownedout
Well-Known Member
I know of drivers who excelled at reciting the Points, but also were later involved in serious on road crashes. I know one guy in particular who was very cocky (similar to your attitude) about how easy it was to recite verbatim, but was later involved in a serious on road roll over in a Feeder.
Reciting the Points proves nothing other than a gift of memory for such acts. Having a multi year safety record is proof enough the driver is doing something right.[/QUOTE]
Excellent points cosmic. I've been saying this for years. Of the drivers on safety commitee at my center, none has been in accident, but 2 of them are among the worst method drivers you would ever come across. This is in terms of actually delivering. Yet they are the ones harrassing other drivers when it comes to safety questions. A bunch of us always respond, "Let supervisor's supervise". I myself am fairly good at reciting the answers. Sometimes have trouble with 5 seeing habits because I jumble the How do you do it? And What does it do for you? For a couple of the points. Someone earlier remarked that as long as you say everything (touch on every point) that's enough. I can tell you from experience this is not the case. I'd love to agree with everyone who has said we should be paid to study. I will absolutely not study on my own time. I used to be able to take an extra 5 or so minutes lunch a couple of times a month and review the answers. But since they comb over every minute of our day for the last year, especially start and finish of lunch, this is no longer practical. I have never heard of our center paying us to study, nor is it my opinion they ever would.
Reciting the Points proves nothing other than a gift of memory for such acts. Having a multi year safety record is proof enough the driver is doing something right.[/QUOTE]
Excellent points cosmic. I've been saying this for years. Of the drivers on safety commitee at my center, none has been in accident, but 2 of them are among the worst method drivers you would ever come across. This is in terms of actually delivering. Yet they are the ones harrassing other drivers when it comes to safety questions. A bunch of us always respond, "Let supervisor's supervise". I myself am fairly good at reciting the answers. Sometimes have trouble with 5 seeing habits because I jumble the How do you do it? And What does it do for you? For a couple of the points. Someone earlier remarked that as long as you say everything (touch on every point) that's enough. I can tell you from experience this is not the case. I'd love to agree with everyone who has said we should be paid to study. I will absolutely not study on my own time. I used to be able to take an extra 5 or so minutes lunch a couple of times a month and review the answers. But since they comb over every minute of our day for the last year, especially start and finish of lunch, this is no longer practical. I have never heard of our center paying us to study, nor is it my opinion they ever would.
browndevil
Well-Known Member
What STUG said is true where I am. Unfortunatley UPS managment style as of late is to intimidate not motivate. Funny how we are a customer oriented company but we treat each other poorly
dilligaf
IN VINO VERITAS
Technically the answers would be Yes and Yes. UPS can do what ever they want to do. Would it stick? Probably not.
stevetheupsguy
sʇǝʌǝʇɥǝndsƃnʎ
Just tell your center manager that you will be using 5-15 minutes on the clock to study this stuff. I'm sure they they would not have a problem with this.
Many UPS policies are intended to comply with The Law, or to prevent loosing additional lawsuits, or to keep OSHA inspectors from returning to find more violations and assess more fines. The Union Contract is only a partial list of the things UPS has a right and/or duty to do.
Here are just two Corporate-wide Settlement Agreements from the OSHA website that are typical of how UPS promises OSHA that they have fixed a problem and will train all employees so the problem won't happen again. Keter is hired to audit UPS periodically to insure UPS is complying with the Agreements.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=CWSA&p_id=836
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=CWSA&p_id=822
- - - -
Anyone instructed to know the Safety Drivel should study on the clock.
"ARTICLE 17. PAID FOR TIME
All employees covered by this Agreement shall be paid for all time spent in service of the Employer."
Here are just two Corporate-wide Settlement Agreements from the OSHA website that are typical of how UPS promises OSHA that they have fixed a problem and will train all employees so the problem won't happen again. Keter is hired to audit UPS periodically to insure UPS is complying with the Agreements.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=CWSA&p_id=836
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=CWSA&p_id=822
- - - -
Anyone instructed to know the Safety Drivel should study on the clock.
"ARTICLE 17. PAID FOR TIME
All employees covered by this Agreement shall be paid for all time spent in service of the Employer."
+1000. Only the safety weenies do homework.
cachsux
Wah
My chance to shine, me the dumb truck driver who can explain the theory but not verbatim, is when I bring my rig (the oldest long nose Mack in the fleet) back everyday with out a mark on it or my trailer. She shines real nice.
As far as knowing over doing. We had a circle of honor guy who could recite everything just the way they like it recently get walked out for a roll away because he was in such a hurry to get to the bathroom that he forgot to set the brakes. Which one of the ten rules did that fall under?
BCFan
Well-Known Member
did you truly lose? or was the warning letter held in protest? in my center i made a request for all warning letters to be issued on charmin makes them somewhat useful BC (not barbequed chicken)
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