Dear Mr. Hoffa

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

UPS giving money to the Teamsters to try and organize the employees of their direct competitor so that they would be forced to change their business model in order to remain competitive? Yeah, I'd have to say that wouldn't be kosher.

 

[happybob]

UPS giving money to the Teamsters to try and organize the employees of their direct competitor so that they would be forced to change their business model in order to remain competitive? Yeah, I'd have to say that wouldn't be kosher.

The hell with kosher, would it be illegal?

 

[satellitedriver]

The hell with kosher, would it be illegal?

Legal, probably.
Smart, not.
UPS has been spending their money to get the playing field level between competitors, as they should.
Unionism, of any company, is not a top down/outside influence/ organizational pursuit.
A ground up movement, by disgruntled employees, is the only way to garner support from outside sources.
So far, FedEx employees are not willing to stand up for themselves.
Until they do, they should not expect any organization to spend money and effort to come to the rescue.

 

[pretzel_man]

The Fedex employees would have the option to join a union, and it's the union that hasn't taken the fight to the next step. Currently the union has to unionize the entire country due to the piss poor fact that Fedex was given an oversized bone when they started the company, by being governed under the FLA. The union DOES NOT have the resources to stage a national campaign to unionize fedex. So the next step has been taken to try and get the drivers, that do the same work as UPS drivers, moved to the NLRA int he halls of Congress. Mr. Fred has spent millions fighting this bill and believe me when I say the union has spent money on it to. Hey UPS, Atlanta, are you listening! If this fight in Congress fails, here's the next step you can take. Since the union can't afford to try an organize them nationwide, step up to the plate. Kick in some money to help the union with that organizing campaign. Is it illegal for the company to do so? I don't know, but the idea may be a good one. There is much to gain by fighting beside the union on this issue. The Teamsters are not going anywhere, so join us in this battle. You know if we win that campaign we all win, The company, the union, your employees, as well as the hard working men and women at Fedex. Short of this, you will have to talk merger at some point in the future, you know it, we know it, Fred knows it. The company has wrung out all the production you can get from the delivery drivers, tired, exhausted and on the fringes of tearing this company apart. Wake up. Jump in here p-man. Has the company ever thought of this angle? Pay a little now, make more in the future. Makes sense to me.

Bob,

I'm pretty sure its illegal.... I know that PAC money cannot come from the company. Its all private donations.

By the way, the Teamsters have a much larger PAC than UPS.

As you said, the RLA legislation just makes the playing field level. After that, its still the choice of the employee.

P-Man

 

[MrFedEx]

Legal, probably.
Smart, not.
UPS has been spending their money to get the playing field level between competitors, as they should.
Unionism, of any company, is not a top down/outside influence/ organizational pursuit.
A ground up movement, by disgruntled employees, is the only way to garner support from outside sources.
So far, FedEx employees are not willing to stand up for themselves.
Until they do, they should not expect any organization to spend money and effort to come to the rescue.

Read my last post. "Standing-up for ourselves" gets you fired at FedEx. They hold all the cards right now. If we walk off, we're fired on the spot. If we distribute union materials in breakrooms or in the parking lot, you're as good as fired because every manager in that station will be setting your butt up for something they can terminate you on. If you do get fired and attempt legal action, you're up against a company brimming with lawyers well-versed in making sure employees either go broke trying, or just plain lose in court. There are internal memos that detail every step a manager must take if they even suspect that an employee is trying to promote a union. Totally against the law, yet standard operating procedure.

We tried ground-up back in the 90's and the Teamsters promised us full support, which was a lie. They've done little in the past dozen years to either educate or organize FedEx workers, and that will hurt their chances of support even if the RLA goes away. We still have a lot of people who drink the Kool-Aid, and would never vote IBT because they think Smith is on their side, so the battle is going to be uphill anyway.

FedEx is very similar to WalMart in the way they seek and destroy anyone or anything that remotely resembles support for a union. You simply do not understand the environment, the company, or the situation. Please continue with the meaningless platitudes about us not wanting it, deserving it, or being willing to fight for it. I've spent 25 plus years in the FedEx culture, I understand it, and I know what goes on behind the scenes because I'm connected to the top in ways that cannot be disclosed. I have access to the memos, the conversations, and the inside information, again, by means that would get some very big names fired. They trust me not to disclose who they are or why they would also like Smith gone. There are many top execs at FedEx who cannot stand Fred S or the way he operates. I won't sell them out because they trusted me to tell the truth.

 

[satellitedriver]

Read my last post. "Standing-up for ourselves" gets you fired at FedEx. They hold all the cards right now. If we walk off, we're fired on the spot. If we distribute union materials in breakrooms or in the parking lot, you're as good as fired because every manager in that station will be setting your butt up for something they can terminate you on. If you do get fired and attempt legal action, you're up against a company brimming with lawyers well-versed in making sure employees either go broke trying, or just plain lose in court. There are internal memos that detail every step a manager must take if they even suspect that an employee is trying to promote a union. Totally against the law, yet standard operating procedure.


We tried ground-up back in the 90's and the Teamsters promised us full support, which was a lie. They've done little in the past dozen years to either educate or organize FedEx workers, and that will hurt their chances of support even if the RLA goes away. We still have a lot of people who drink the Kool-Aid, and would never vote IBT because they think Smith is on their side, so the battle is going to be uphill anyway.

FedEx is very similar to WalMart in the way they seek and destroy anyone or anything that remotely resembles support for a union. You simply do not understand the environment, the company, or the situation. Please continue with the meaningless platitudes about us not wanting it, deserving it, or being willing to fight for it. I've spent 25 plus years in the FedEx culture, I understand it, and I know what goes on behind the scenes because I'm connected to the top in ways that cannot be disclosed. I have access to the memos, the conversations, and the inside information, again, by means that would get some very big names fired. They trust me not to disclose who they are or why they would also like Smith gone. There are many top execs at FedEx who cannot stand Fred S or the way he operates. I won't sell them out because they trusted me to tell the truth.

Then there is no need for you to even contemplate being unionized.
After 25yrs and "insider" knowledge, your post points out that there is no internal will in FedEx to unionize.
No need for the teamsters to waste their time and money on your behalf.

 

[MrFedEx]

Then there is no need for you to even contemplate being unionized.
After 25yrs and "insider" knowledge, your post points out that there is no internal will in FedEx to unionize.
No need for the teamsters to waste their time and money on your behalf.

Sigh. Again, you don't get it. There is tremendous internal will within FedEx to organize, but there is a 36-year wall of defenses in place that make it very difficult for an hourly employee to do anything without outside assistance. That's where the Teamsters come in, or where they should be coming in, but are not. If the IBT offered some legal assistance and education, there would be a much better chance of success. My point is that they are showing very little leadership at a point where they need to be showing a lot. If they are depending on the dysfunctional Democrats to get the job done, that's a big mistake too. UPS is probably wasting a lot of lobbying money on a party that can't get their act together on much of anything.

My connections go pretty close to the top. From what they tell me, there are more than a few top-level execs that would like to take the company in a different direction than Smith. They're smart enough to realize that he's done more harm than good in recent years, and that it's time for some new leadership. They're also smart enough not to commit career suicide by ever voicing it openly. The 3 individuals I know all want to keep the IBT out too, but via different means than Smith, who sees no need to change anything. Maybe they're the only 3 that feel this way, but I doubt it.

Anyway, I enjoy debating you.

 

[scratch]

There is an FAA Bill on the Senate agenda schedule for Tuesday and Wednesday this week, I'm not sure if this is the one to re-classify Fedex's status. I have noticed an increase in the Fedex "Brown Bailout" ads, especially at websites like The Drudge Report last week.

 

[pretzel_man]

There is an FAA Bill on the Senate agenda schedule for Tuesday and Wednesday this week, I'm not sure if this is the one to re-classify Fedex's status. I have noticed an increase in the Fedex "Brown Bailout" ads, especially at websites like The Drudge Report last week.

Yes, The FAA reauthorization bill is the one with the RLA change. The house version has the language change. Its unlikely that the senate version will have the language change in it.

That means that the two bills will need to be reconciled in committee. A small group will then decide the fate.

P-Man

 

[satellitedriver]

Sigh. Again, you don't get it. I get "it" There is tremendous internal will-( Will, without action, is only wishful thinking. )- within FedEx to organize, but there is a 36-year wall of defenses-( and 36yrs of employees not asserting their "internal tremendous will") in place that make it very difficult -( very difficult, but not impossible)- for an hourly employee to do anything without outside assistance. That's where the Teamsters come in, or where they should be coming in, but are not. If the IBT offered some legal assistance and education, there would be a much better chance of success. -( If you think IBT offers anything for free.......well...?)- My point is that they are showing very little leadership -(That is the standard)- at a point where they need to be showing a lot. If they are depending on the dysfunctional Democrats to get the job done, that's a big mistake too. UPS is probably wasting a lot of lobbying money on a party that can't get their act together on much of anything. I totally agree with your last two sentences.

My connections go pretty close to the top. From what they tell me, there are more than a few top-level execs that would like to take the company in a different direction than Smith. They're smart enough to realize that he's done more harm than good in recent years, and that it's time for some new leadership. They're also smart enough not to commit career suicide by ever voicing it openly. The 3 individuals I know all want to keep the IBT out too, but via different means than Smith, who sees no need to change anything. Maybe they're the only 3 that feel this way, but I doubt it.

Anyway, I enjoy debating you.

There is no debate between us.
You have pointed out, very clearly, that the culture of FedEx is anti union.
I agree.
You have pointed out, very clearly, that some of the workers at FedEx want a union and have not made any in roads in their efforts in the past 36yrs.
I agree.
On your last point about the teamsters coming in with legal and educational support, for free.
Sorry,that is not going to happen. They can not afford it.

I truly understand, and sympathize, your plight, but the days of the teamsters bulling into a company are long gone.
FedEx employees must take a stand on their own initiative, if they want any form of unionization.
You have made my argument.
Fred does not want a union.
His management under him does not want a union, they just do not like his tactics.
The majority of the workers are too afraid of their jobs to press the point.
The teamsters are not going to take on Quixotic quest to rescue FedEx employees.
What is there to debate?

 

[UnconTROLLed]

There is no debate between us.
You have pointed out, very clearly, that the culture of FedEx is anti union.
I agree.
You have pointed out, very clearly, that some of the workers at FedEx want a union and have not made any in roads in their efforts in the past 36yrs.
I agree.
On your last point about the teamsters coming in with legal and educational support, for free.
Sorry,that is not going to happen. They can not afford it.

I truly understand, and sympathize, your plight, but the days of the teamsters bulling into a company are long gone.
FedEx employees must take a stand on their own initiative, if they want any form of unionization.
You have made my argument.
Fred does not want a union.
His management under him does not want a union, they just do not like his tactics.
The majority of the workers are too afraid of their jobs to press the point.
The teamsters are not going to take on Quixotic quest to rescue FedEx employees.
What is there to debate?

That pretty much sums it up. It isn't the old FedEx or UPS anymore. And just as Rome isn't built in a day, nor is a company labor regime.

As profits rise, slowly percs are taken away. FedEx is a great example. There has been no "turning point" so far as to truly convince FedEx to organize. As long as Fred continues to throw a bone or two (including announcing a "salary cut? LOL) to the media and the employees, it is what it is!

 

[MrFedEx]

There is no debate between us.
You have pointed out, very clearly, that the culture of FedEx is anti union.
I agree.
You have pointed out, very clearly, that some of the workers at FedEx want a union and have not made any in roads in their efforts in the past 36yrs.
I agree.
On your last point about the teamsters coming in with legal and educational support, for free.
Sorry,that is not going to happen. They can not afford it.

I truly understand, and sympathize, your plight, but the days of the teamsters bulling into a company are long gone.
FedEx employees must take a stand on their own initiative, if they want any form of unionization.
You have made my argument.
Fred does not want a union.
His management under him does not want a union, they just do not like his tactics.
The majority of the workers are too afraid of their jobs to press the point.
The teamsters are not going to take on Quixotic quest to rescue FedEx employees.
What is there to debate?

If the Teamsters want the dues and membership numbers they need to "bull" into FedEx (your term). Maybe that's why unions have been such emasculated pushovers for the last 20+ years. If they're too cheap to fund some education and legal help, maybe they don't deserve us (or our money). With all of the various pension fund issues one would think the IBT would have a high level of interest in FedEx.

There are plenty of managers who are not anti-union, but have to act the part because that's what Smith wants. In today's weak economy, just having a job is crucial, so it's even more imperative that the Teamsters step it up.

And no, I have not made your point. We still disagree, and are continuing said disagreement. That makes it a debate, unless you're God and are making dictates.

 

[happybob]

If the Teamsters want the dues and membership numbers they need to "bull" into FedEx (your term). Maybe that's why unions have been such emasculated pushovers for the last 20+ years. If they're too cheap to fund some education and legal help, maybe they don't deserve us (or our money). With all of the various pension fund issues one would think the IBT would have a high level of interest in FedEx.

There are plenty of managers who are not anti-union, but have to act the part because that's what Smith wants. In today's weak economy, just having a job is crucial, so it's even more imperative that the Teamsters step it up.

And no, I have not made your point. We still disagree, and are continuing said disagreement. That makes it a debate, unless you're God and are making dictates.

You forget to understand that the Teamsters DO NOT HAVE the funds to organize FedEx at a National level. They have called in some chits in Congress, and are seaking to level the playing field by being allowed to organize barn by barn. If they get the bill passed you will see the Teamsters at your barns. Take it a step further if you will, contact your congressmen/conmgresswomen and ask them to support the card check legislation.

 

[satellitedriver]

If the Teamsters want the dues and membership numbers they need to "bull" into FedEx (your term). Maybe that's why unions have been such emasculated pushovers for the last 20+ years. If they're too cheap to fund some education and legal help, maybe they don't deserve us (or our money). With all of the various pension fund issues one would think the IBT would have a high level of interest in FedEx.

There are plenty of managers who are not anti-union, but have to act the part because that's what Smith wants. In today's weak economy, just having a job is crucial, so it's even more imperative that the Teamsters step it up.

And no, I have not made your point. We still disagree, and are continuing said disagreement. That makes it a debate, unless you're God and are making dictates.

OK,
I will just let you re-read what you just have posted.
Apparently. you can not see the contradictions, from your previous posts.
Debate is not the same as disagreement.
I agree with all your points about FedEx employees being too afraid.
I disagree that the teamsters should come riding in on a white horse to save the day, when FedExer's have not even built a stable to care for the steed.
I am not God, and I have never claimed to be.
Last time God had anyone take dictation, I think his name was Moses.

 

[705red]

Red:

I'm sorry, but I think you are way off base here...

The FAA act does NOT make FedEx union. All is does is make it the same rules as UPS. They can join a union if they wish or not.

If life is better the way it is now, then no harm, no foul. Why then would you or FedEx be opposed to that? I still don't understand your position.

P-Man

Tony the point is our management isnt stepping up now with our advantages we have. We have the best, most accurate tracking system around. IMO we have the best laborers to do the job and deal with the customers. But instead of management helping to grow the company, they would rather treat the employees like crap. like pission in cups and putting in cup holders, or following drivers around for bs warning letters, to not caring that we work 10 to 12 hours everyday.

We have the tools to beat them union or not, be management would rather just make excuses that because they are not union is why they are gaining ground on us. I call BS, its bad management decisions and policies that has sent 3.5 million packages a day to them.[/QUOTE]

The other half of the story is that they pay about 1/2 for their ground drivers that UPS pays. That is part of the story as well.

P-Man

You can't blame it all on bad management! Like I said before, it's a two way street, there are managers that need help, there are hourly that need help. If we don't work together we won't be around another 10 years let alone 100...You are focusing on working conditions that have been more difficult for both management and hourly for the last couple of years because of the economy. It's not only at UPS but everywhere, productivity is up, people are getting squeezed so companies can survive...At least the ones who are having to work harder have a job...I'll bet you the guy on the street would trade places in a heartbeat!!

This is not to make light of the problems you and others have expressed here, there are problems that need to be addressed and working conditions need to improve....

My point is...and I'll say it again. The competitive playing field should be the same and yes the employees should have the option to join the union just like they do with UPS, I thought that was implied and almost typed it in my last post.

If they're not classified the same yet do the same job how is that a fair deal for all the hard working UPSers? UPSers have always stepped up to overcome the unfair advantage. First the Post Office, not having to make a profit to survive… and more recently FedEx which has in my opinion an unfair advantage. Unfortunately much of the stepping up has been at the expense of our people, both management and hourly, many sacrifices made. In another respect it has made us stronger, more efficient and streamlined...

I don't get the overloading; bring back the Total Service Plan!!

UPS is not spending the money they are on this bill so the employees have a right to vote to join a union are they? No they are spending the money hoping that the employees unionize. WOuld UPS spend this money if the knew that the employees probably would not unionize?

Thats what I am saying. Im all for the employees to have a choice, as this is the american way. I will not promote this through UPS however because we know that UPS'S intentions are not genuine. I would rather see UPS concentrate on the service issues and win back our customers the right way, instead of wishing ill on our competitors.

 

[tonyexpress]

Thats what I am saying. Im all for the employees to have a choice, as this is the american way. I will not promote this through UPS however because we know that UPS'S intentions are not genuine. I would rather see UPS concentrate on the service issues and win back our customers the right way, instead of wishing ill on our competitors.

I think your feelings for some of the management people you deal with are clouding your vision of the bigger picture...Would it not be genuine for UPS to want to compete on a level playing field? Would this not be in the genuine best interest of all UPSers?

I don't believe giving the same opportunity to FedEx employees is wishing ill on our competitors?

By not fighting for what is right (possibililty of an equal playing field) wouldn't it be wishing ill on UPS, and in doing so aren't we saying that being a union employee is not all that it is cracked up to be?

Jim Casey the founder of UPS invited the union in....If we make it an equal playing field, all I'm saying is... FedEx employees will have the same opportunities Casey afforded UPSers...hardly wishing ill on them, unless you think giving them the opportunity to join the union will make them ill....

We want FedEx to remain strong and to compete...Competition only makes us stronger, it is the American way!!

Oh, and you're right about concentrating on service issues and winning back the customers, that should always be the priority no matter what happens with this legislation...

 

[MrFedEx]

OK,
I will just let you re-read what you just have posted.
Apparently. you can not see the contradictions, from your previous posts.
Debate is not the same as disagreement.
I agree with all your points about FedEx employees being too afraid.
I disagree that the teamsters should come riding in on a white horse to save the day, when FedExer's have not even built a stable to care for the steed.
I am not God, and I have never claimed to be.
Last time God had anyone take dictation, I think his name was Moses.

There's no point in trying to debate a brick. We'll just agree to disagree, as usual.

 

[MrFedEx]

You forget to understand that the Teamsters DO NOT HAVE the funds to organize FedEx at a National level. They have called in some chits in Congress, and are seaking to level the playing field by being allowed to organize barn by barn. If they get the bill passed you will see the Teamsters at your barns. Take it a step further if you will, contact your congressmen/conmgresswomen and ask them to support the card check legislation.

If you're right, Smith has already won. Perhaps the Teamsters have nobody to blame but themselves if they can no longer handle national campaigns. It's no wonder membership has dwindled away. We need the Teamsters to fight FedEx, but they need us to bolster their power and fund their pension plans. If they cannot step-up to the plate, they aren't going to win the game.

 

[MrFedEx]

OK,
I will just let you re-read what you just have posted.
Apparently. you can not see the contradictions, from your previous posts.
Debate is not the same as disagreement.
I agree with all your points about FedEx employees being too afraid.
I disagree that the teamsters should come riding in on a white horse to save the day, when FedExer's have not even built a stable to care for the steed.
I am not God, and I have never claimed to be.
Last time God had anyone take dictation, I think his name was Moses.

P.S. Midol has just introduced an "Extra Cranky" formula. Go out and get yourself a bottle.

 

[satellitedriver]

There's no point in trying to debate a brick. We'll just agree to disagree, as usual.

Sorry for the cut and paste quote, but it says it well.
From ,
"The Princess Bride".
Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Hell,
I have agreed with all your points about how FedEx employees are too afraid to take action.
You have stated them clearly and constantly.
Your only argument, in the "debate", is that the teamsters are not willing to do what FedEx employees should do for themselves.
You view me as a brick.
I view myself as iron.
Ductile, malleable and useful.
Add 1% of carbon and I become steel.
Mr Ex,
As usual, you have not made a point for me to disagree with.