DIAD GPS

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
We , collectively, as drivers are instructed nearly everyday to falsify some kind of company documents, mainly to cover the center manager's A. Yet when we falsify , even if by accident, our job is on the line and will be accused of stealing.
If you say something that is not true but you believe it to be true, that is not lying nor an integrity issue but will be treated as such. UPS is without doubt the most hypocritical organization I have ever worked for. I know 1%er bikers with more integrity.

I'm sorry, but I take exception to this statement. Yes, I understand the negative comments that will come from my saying this. I didn't want my silence construed as agreement however, so I felt compelled to respond.

There are about 30,000 managers and supervisors in UPS worldwide. I'm certain that there is a percent of those that are dishonest, unethical, and only care about their own ass.

There are about 80,000 package and feeder drivers in the US every day. I'm also certain that a percent of them are less than honest and look to get away with whatever they can.

I strongly believe that these individuals whether drivers or management are in the minority and the vast majority of our people try to do the best they can.

I don't believe that the Teamsters condone dishonesty in their ranks, even though it happens occaisionally.

I also know that UPS doesn't condone those acts either.

Neither of us have ever attended a meeting where we were guided in any shape or form to not do the right thing.

Again, I have never falsified a document to CYA. I've never accepted this from people I work with. To imply that this is regularly accepted is not something I can accept.

P-Man
 

brownheron

New Member
So glad I'm retired after 31 yrs of hearing ying-yang, back and forth, all the mistrust and misguidance. When it's all said and done " UPS has been very, very good to me.
 

barnyard

KTM rider
I for one, cannot wait till the new GPS tools are used in my center. Almost all of our routes overlap and could/should be redone for more efficiency.

I enjoy working smarter, not harder. Plus, I do not have anything to hide. I stand by the work that I do. I do change from shorts to pants and vice versa, so I would hope that I am not starring on some pay per view site. That would kind of bother me....... or not.

TB
 

New Englander

Well-Known Member
Please explain to me how a driver giving his meal time or sorting his car before start time can possibly be considered as stealing time?
If a driver puts in his meal time from noon-1300 yet continues to deliver, and later in the day spends 15-20 minutes visiting with a customer, do you think that is stealing time?

It can be considered stealing time from your union brothers. If by not sorting or running through your lunch would cause service delays or late air returns to the center. Another driver could possibly want the extra work needed to lighten your work or in the extreme another route could need to be put on.

You should only document your break times when you are actually taking it. The board allows plenty of space not to break up your lunches.

Foolish to do it anyway but that way.
 

browniehound

Well-Known Member
Brownie:

I've used GPS with lots of drivers. Based on what you said, I "may" ask the driver why he / she took the alternate route. I think that's my responsibility.

When a driver gives me an answer like you did, I thank him / her for making a good decision.

With all the routes I've reviewed using GPS, your concern has never been an issue.

I'm sure that somewhere in the world, there will be a supervisor that uses this improperly. I'll apologize ahead of time for that.

From my experience so far, it has only helped the honest managers and drivers.

P-Man


Pretzel,
Thanks for your response, I feel a lot better now. I just want to get to my route as quickly as possible. On the flip side, I want to get back to the center ASAP once I'm done on route.

Come to think of it, I don't know many drivers who feels differently than me. The ones that do are the ones I loathe. I say this because its always me that has to go and help this lazy SOB with 20 stops at 6pm on a friday. We all know the ones.
 

upsman415

Active Member
Our center here in SF is using GPS. Shows them your first and last stop and how many stops you have left. Shows them the whole map of your center and they go by color code beside your name and they just go to that color and they see you...
 
I'm sorry, but I take exception to this statement. Yes, I understand the negative comments that will come from my saying this. I didn't want my silence construed as agreement however, so I felt compelled to respond.

There are about 30,000 managers and supervisors in UPS worldwide. I'm certain that there is a percent of those that are dishonest, unethical, and only care about their own ass.

There are about 80,000 package and feeder drivers in the US every day. I'm also certain that a percent of them are less than honest and look to get away with whatever they can.

I strongly believe that these individuals whether drivers or management are in the minority and the vast majority of our people try to do the best they can.

I don't believe that the Teamsters condone dishonesty in their ranks, even though it happens occaisionally.

I also know that UPS doesn't condone those acts either.

Neither of us have ever attended a meeting where we were guided in any shape or form to not do the right thing.

Again, I have never falsified a document to CYA. I've never accepted this from people I work with. To imply that this is regularly accepted is not something I can accept.

P-Man
First I respectfully ask, just how many years did you work in an operations center as an hourly employee?
I regret that you take exception to my post, but that does not alter what I have seen, first hand, for 20+ years. I do believe that the lines of dishonesty weave in and out of the ranks of UPS employees from the bottom to nearly the top (if not all the way to the top).
Of course the meetings that you have attended have no dishonesty lessons, the success of a good criminal is dependent on secrecy. It's the after meeting personal talks where the underhandedness occurs.
We have read many a thread on this forum where managers have instructed hourlies to falsify delivery documents to hide missed packages, misloads, and a multitude of other infractions. Do you think this is proper or honest? We've read stories where drivers were unfairly treated, harassed without good cause, even fired to have to fight to keep their jobs when it was not needed. Is this integrity? I have never said that all UPS management people are with out integrity, I have never claimed that all drivers are squeaky clean. I have inserted the things I have seen, experienced and been privy to insider knowledge of and followed with my assessment of the underlying attitude of many management personnel. Just how many bad apples does it take to spoil the bushel?
P_man I have alot of respect for you and what you do in the employee of UPS, I have no doubt that you earn every dollar on your paycheck and have absolutely no reason to think you are less than truthful. I do , however, sense that you operate daily in an somewhat protected environment, shielded from much of the ugliness that some of us have seen face to face.
 
It can be considered stealing time from your union brothers. If by not sorting or running through your lunch would cause service delays or late air returns to the center. Another driver could possibly want the extra work needed to lighten your work or in the extreme another route could need to be put on.

You should only document your break times when you are actually taking it. The board allows plenty of space not to break up your lunches.

Foolish to do it anyway but that way.
Do you really think UPS cares if one driver steals time (work) from another Union brother? Think again. I've been around long enough to know that the company really could care less if one driver wants more work or another driver doesn't. All they care about is getting it all done in as short of a period of time as possible. There are rules in place that actually forbid re-dispatching routes on area by the drivers without consent from management. People have been fired for doing it on their own.
It is true(in our center at least) that IF every driver would stay out of the car before scheduled start time and would take their required meals/breaks AND file O/9.5 grievances that we would have more drivers on road. However that would take consistency and dedication and more than a day or two to accomplish. In our area, only a dreamer ever thinks it might happen.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
First I respectfully ask, just how many years did you work in an operations center as an hourly employee?
I regret that you take exception to my post, but that does not alter what I have seen, first hand, for 20+ years. I do believe that the lines of dishonesty weave in and out of the ranks of UPS employees from the bottom to nearly the top (if not all the way to the top).
Of course the meetings that you have attended have no dishonesty lessons, the success of a good criminal is dependent on secrecy. It's the after meeting personal talks where the underhandedness occurs.
We have read many a thread on this forum where managers have instructed hourlies to falsify delivery documents to hide missed packages, misloads, and a multitude of other infractions. Do you think this is proper or honest? We've read stories where drivers were unfairly treated, harassed without good cause, even fired to have to fight to keep their jobs when it was not needed. Is this integrity? I have never said that all UPS management people are with out integrity, I have never claimed that all drivers are squeaky clean. I have inserted the things I have seen, experienced and been privy to insider knowledge of and followed with my assessment of the underlying attitude of many management personnel. Just how many bad apples does it take to spoil the bushel?
P_man I have alot of respect for you and what you do in the employee of UPS, I have no doubt that you earn every dollar on your paycheck and have absolutely no reason to think you are less than truthful. I do , however, sense that you operate daily in an somewhat protected environment, shielded from much of the ugliness that some of us have seen face to face.

Trpl:

First, an answer to your question....

I spent 3 years as an hourly employee. Mostly hub.
Then, 11 years in operations (Hub, Feeder, Package). I was in multiple districts and regions.
The last 18 years have been in different assignments (mostly through IE). (Deployments, Corporate, Region, etc.)

You're right that I see a lot less of the day to day interactions than I saw 20 years ago. However, I've found people and problems to be the same.

You're also right that we all see things from our own perspective. However, I don't feel "shielded" or in a proteced environment. I also do not think there is a "criminal" conspiracy going on that I'm not privy to.

I believe that if you and I worked together, we'd do great. I'd lay out expectations and ask for your input. If I didn't know an answer, I'd say so, and try and find it. I'd do what I say I would do, and expect the same from you.

I'd ask that we improve UPS service and reduce cost as our goal.

As I said previously, I'm sure that there are underhanded management people out there. I believe them to be in the minority, and do not belong at UPS. I will never condone their actions, but I won't assume that they spoiled the management barrel. Just like I don't assume the few hourly bad apples spoil the Teamster barrel.

I do believe that the bad management apple is tremendously worse than the bad Teamster apple.

Just as you will say that my posts are only a portion of the picture, so are the posts you mention with the allegation of dishonestly.

If you were treated poorly from management, I apologize for that.

P-Man
 

JustTired

free at last.......
There are rules in place that actually forbid re-dispatching routes on area by the drivers without consent from management. People have been fired for doing it on their own.

Before the advent of PAS/EDD and GPS, a fellow driver and I would meet for lunch. If he was heavy and I was light, I would take work off of him. And vice-versa. While it didn't have the official blessing of our center manager, he knew we did this and obviously didn't have a problem with it. It got us both off the clock at a descent hour.

Now, with all the new technology, it is not possible without jumping thru hoops. Besides, nobody goes out light anymore, so it became a moot point.
 

scoobypanda

Well-Known Member
Ours is up and running for a week now, and I am on the fence on it. On one hand it is a little oppressive and sneaky. On the other hand, it is great to see the playing field leveled. All the favorite sons with the great numbers will be all over the reports, while all us "slackers" working safely, following the methods, and being professional will be going from the pcm to the truck with no little pitstops in the manager's office. Lovely.
 

Johngil

Member
So glad I'm retired after 31 yrs of hearing ying-yang, back and forth, all the mistrust and misguidance. When it's all said and done " UPS has been very, very good to me.

I'm so glad to hear a "positive" statement about UPS. I'm a new UPS employee, only 2 weeks on the job as an OMS. So far I like it a lot, that may change who knows. Why is there so mis-trust and bad blood between union guys and management? My background before joining the UPS ranks, was in the automotive industry, mainly as a service manager and technician. I treated everyone with respect and expected the same in return, which I got. Im looking to make UPS my career, and eventually going to friend/T management in automotive. It seems, according to some, that management is dishonest, untrustworthy, and downright idiots. I'll try to keep my upbeat attitude, and after "31" years be just as thankful, and satisfied as Brownheron is. :happy-very:

and btw, I can't wait for ODSe!!
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
Trpl:

First, an answer to your question....

I spent 3 years as an hourly employee. Mostly hub.
Then, 11 years in operations (Hub, Feeder, Package). I was in multiple districts and regions.
The last 18 years have been in different assignments (mostly through IE). (Deployments, Corporate, Region, etc.)

You're right that I see a lot less of the day to day interactions than I saw 20 years ago. However, I've found people and problems to be the same.

You're also right that we all see things from our own perspective. However, I don't feel "shielded" or in a proteced environment. I also do not think there is a "criminal" conspiracy going on that I'm not privy to.

I believe that if you and I worked together, we'd do great. I'd lay out expectations and ask for your input. If I didn't know an answer, I'd say so, and try and find it. I'd do what I say I would do, and expect the same from you.

I'd ask that we improve UPS service and reduce cost as our goal.

As I said previously, I'm sure that there are underhanded management people out there. I believe them to be in the minority, and do not belong at UPS. I will never condone their actions, but I won't assume that they spoiled the management barrel. Just like I don't assume the few hourly bad apples spoil the Teamster barrel.

I do believe that the bad management apple is tremendously worse than the bad Teamster apple.

Just as you will say that my posts are only a portion of the picture, so are the posts you mention with the allegation of dishonestly.

If you were treated poorly from management, I apologize for that.

P-Man

p-man, thanks for your honesty. We can all post on here the many questionable practices, and some of the good things that happen at this job, but unfortunately these discussions will probably never spill out to the real world, and positive change will never happen, even though they are discussed on a daily basis on this site.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
JustTired, my route is adjacent to that of a driver who delivers to the former AFB and I always try to check on him to see if he needs any help, especially if I am on the light side. Most of the time he is all set but usually once a week I will end up taking a residential section from him, usually 10-15 stops that normally takes less than 1/2 hour to deliver as the area is dense. My on-car and center manager both know and only ask that I don't take too much work that he doesn't dispatch. I will also message in when I am done if I am able to help anyone else.
 
Trpl:

First, an answer to your question....

I spent 3 years as an hourly employee. Mostly hub.
Then, 11 years in operations (Hub, Feeder, Package). I was in multiple districts and regions.
The last 18 years have been in different assignments (mostly through IE). (Deployments, Corporate, Region, etc.)

That is quite a resume, I, on the other hand, have spent all of my 23 years with the company in the same center with somewhere between 70-80 drivers on road daily. My knowledge of what goes on in corporate and district offices is very limited and speculative.

You're right that I see a lot less of the day to day interactions than I saw 20 years ago. However, I've found people and problems to be the same.

You're also right that we all see things from our own perspective. However, I don't feel "shielded" or in a proteced environment. I also do not think there is a "criminal" conspiracy going on that I'm not privy to.
My perspective is based on what I see, mostly on a daily bases. As is your perspective, that only make sense.
My "criminal" comment wasn't meant to imply that there the is a conspiracy, those take way too much planning and forethought. The secrecy I mentioned is to cover up the cover up, not to organize. To qualify the "cover up". A center manager or supervisor instructs a driver to sheet packages as "Clo H" on a non-holiday in stead of a simple "CLO 1,2 or 3" so the packages don't show up on the "send again? report. The one and only reason to do this dishonest act is to keep the center manager under the division mgrs radar. We all know there are HOT BUTTON or SOUP of the DAY situations that get more attention than others. A district manage has a problem with too many "paid send again" pkgs and tells his guys that this number has to be reduced and they pass it down to the division, division to center manager , center manager to sups to drivers. This is the type of things we see everyday.

I believe that if you and I worked together, we'd do great. I'd lay out expectations and ask for your input. If I didn't know an answer, I'd say so, and try and find it. I'd do what I say I would do, and expect the same from you.
I agree with that statement, this is basically all I require for a good working relationship.
I'd ask that we improve UPS service and reduce cost as our goal.
Now here is where we might but heads. I give 100% to getting my job done as well as I can, however I am seldom given all the proper tools to get the job done.i.e., early enough start times, crappy loads, illogical EDD, worn out equipment, yadda yadda. Three days a week every driver in our building leaves the building 20-30 minutes over allowed. Crappy loads only start with a misload here and there. When you drive 300+ miles on route, a vehicle that will never run over 50MPH is a big deal. I'll stop there.

As I said previously, I'm sure that there are underhanded management people out there. I believe them to be in the minority, and do not belong at UPS. I will never condone their actions, but I won't assume that they spoiled the management barrel. Just like I don't assume the few hourly bad apples spoil the Teamster barrel.
Maybe it's a regional thing but we have managers here that come from all over the USA and the majority of them were quite skilled at CYA tactics. Couple that with the seemingly innate ability to shift blame to others, is it any wonder how and why some lowly hourly employees get sour attitudes?

I do believe that the bad management apple is tremendously worse than the bad Teamster apple.
I believe this could well be one of those "chicken/egg" egg things to an extent. In my mind the only thing that makes the management end of this worse is the power to adversely effect others lives and believe we have seen this happen many times.

Just as you will say that my posts are only a portion of the picture, so are the posts you mention with the allegation of dishonestly.
OF course, both of us post from what we know, see and experience. The dishonesty I post about is factual, not alleged. Any "conspiracy theory" is alleged.

If you were treated poorly from management, I apologize for that.
There is no need for YOU to apologize to ME, you have never treated me poorly.

P-Man
I'm not trying to WIN an argument here, just explaining what I see and experience.
 
In our center, if you are going to something like that, you MUST call and get approval first or face the wrath of fierce powers.
 

DS

Fenderbender
Its great to see management that sees beyond the realm of getting ahead by punishing the hourlies.The comments back and forth between pretzel_man and trplnkl have left me somewhat inspired and refreshed.
I do believe that ups should take a long look at the way they dispense supreme authority to center manager's that come and go in quality and quantity.
I also think there are far too many people in management overall.
I realize that production must play a major role with such a big company,and the sales staff would be much more productive if they lost thier suits and made some deliveries.
I'm in a large center,Toronto,and our current center manager thinks he's god.
His most recent idea was to fire a 6 yr driver because he had a beard.
He is muslim,he has had his beard a long time.3 weeks off with pay.
I hope it comes out of our center manager's check.
But I reside to remain positive,at least until I piss him off.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
I believe that if you and I worked together, we'd do great. I'd lay out expectations and ask for your input. If I didn't know an answer, I'd say so, and try and find it. I'd do what I say I would do, and expect the same from you.
I agree with that statement, this is basically all I require for a good working relationship.
I'd ask that we improve UPS service and reduce cost as our goal.
Now here is where we might but heads. I give 100% to getting my job done as well as I can, however I am seldom given all the proper tools to get the job done.i.e., early enough start times, crappy loads, illogical EDD, worn out equipment, yadda yadda. Three days a week every driver in our building leaves the building 20-30 minutes over allowed. Crappy loads only start with a misload here and there. When you drive 300+ miles on route, a vehicle that will never run over 50MPH is a big deal. I'll stop there.

Trpl:

You said we'd butt heads on my desire to reduce cost and improve service. I don't believe do. I think I can prove it.

First, I believe you give 100%, so I will not ask you to work harder. However, I will ask you to trade unproductive time for productive work.

For instance...

A crappy load causes you extra time in the car looking for packages and pulling the ones you need to deliver.

Illogical EDD, causes you to drive extra miles and probably spend more time in the back of the car.

Do you re-load your car? If so, that is extra time not spent doing productive work.

If I add up this unproductive time, I'd bet its easily 20 to 30 minutes, and a few miles? Sound right? What if I could fix that?

I'd ask you to use the time I saved you to either come in earlier, or deliver more stops.

I would work to improve these issues as a commitment to you. If I fixed them, I'd ask you to show reduced cost and improved service.

That's the way its supposed to get fixed, and there are many centers doing that.

P-Man
 

dilligaf

IN VINO VERITAS
P-man, If you could fix the problems that Trpl is talking about in the way you are suggesting without the 'ego trip' that most sups/mgrs (in my experience) are on then, sir, you would have my undying loyalty as your employee. I give 110% and if I had a sup/mgr that treated me the way you are talking I would give 120%.
Why are there not more sups/mgrs with your attitude towards employees?
 
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