Early Contract Talks

Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by wkmac, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    I was just reading an article on this and I couldn't help but remember back to 1985' when the UPS/IBT contract was just automatically extended for 2 more years and our raises (at least in our area it was) were taken to maintain health and welfare benefits. I know most including myself would hope that UPS would just throw over the money and save the day to the current pension and healthcare problems but I also wish I had the numbers to win a huge Megaball or Powerball lottery too and be done with all this nonsense!

    That said I do have a few questions on this subject. Let's just say for the sake of discussion because we really have no idea how the talks will go, that in order to help support and maintain or better yet return us to what we had nearly 3 years ago, what if anything would you be willing to give up or how long of a contract are you willing to grant for example? Would you give up any of the following to return the pension and insurance to what they once were:

    1) Give up the 6th week vacation for 25 years or to add more to the savings give up the 2nd week after 2 years service?

    2) Give up pay raises for 1 year, 2 years, 3... etc. etc. What's the limit here if you'd go that route?

    3) Would you forever give up the option week?

    4) Fill in with your idea ______________!

    5) None of the above.

    6) Won't bend in any way and expect UPS to come out of pocket for the whole thing.

    7) A few of you fit this Why do anything at all because my pension and healthcare are just fine.

    8) What about PTers who really have no risk in the Teamster funds anyway other than the fact that the company is free if not obligated to lower services to meet what is happening in the FTer world. I say if obligated because I would think the Teamsters over the years would never agree to a contract that would give the company the ability to have a plan that exceeded there making them look bad to the masses.

    9) 10 year contract or a no-strike clause with a contract deadlock settled by independent arbitrator with open access to all UPS and IBT information and records.

    If it got us back to where we once were and it could be shown to solve the problem for years to come I'd give up a week's vacation, option week or even some raises but I'll also freely admit that having 25 years in already would mean whatever impact I agreed is short lived because with 5 years I'm out-a-here. I'd in a sense get a real payoff for a short term sacrifice. If say I had 15 years or less I'm so so sure I'd be as excited about that option.

    I'd also go for a 10 year contract but that timeframe in itself, I don't see how that would help. I think the no-strike clause is the Holy Grail for UPS but the specifics of this would have to be carefully drawn up in order to protect both sides from disaster.

    Also you've got folks here in plans that are in good shape so is it fair to make them give up the same thing? What about the PTer's? My personal belief is no, then earned it, they have a system that works so why make them play for us. If the shoe were on the other foot I know how I'd feel. I would think and hope that any hard choices would be done only within the jurisdictions of the funds in trouble and not on a nationwide basis. Obviously the 10 year contract and no-strike clause would be nationwide so there you go on that.


    What you guys thinkin'? No right or wrong answers here IMO. Just ideas.
    Also be fun to see what we throw out and then what actually comes out in the wash.
  2. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member


    Here's the numbers...

    2,5,12,18,33 Mega 35

    Go for it !!!
  3. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member


    Thanks moreluck! I have figured out why I never win. I never buy a ticket!
  4. wkmac,
    Why is it the responsibility of UPS to fix the pension plan that they did not destroy? If memory serves, back in 1997 UPS tried to address the plan and the Teamsters responded with a two week walk out. UPS wants to put money into a pension fund that only UPS'ers draw out of. Is that so wrong? I don't know but I do know that we as UPS teamsters only see $.40 for every dollar that UPS puts in. When are we as teamsters going to address the fact that our own union has allowed our pension to fall into the grave situation that it is in. When I say that I mean let's look back through history at how teamster pension money has been funneled, siphoned, misplaced and just plain mis-appropriated. We need to look at the cause and not just cast blame at the easiest target. Maybe the APWA has a few thoughts on this.
  5. It is my understanding that UPS and the pilots union have reached agreement.

    Pinch me...

    Go UPS!
  6. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    I would be willing to go for a COLA increase every year, and would probably give up one of my six weeks or option days if my pension problem with Central States could be fixed. I have 6.75 years credit as a P/Ter and am working on 23 as a Package Driver at age 48. I think we need to be in a UPS-Teamster only pension plan, CS is going down the drain and there ain't no way it will get any better. I doubt the IBT will go for that. I would love to retire after the 2008 contract.
  7. Just Lurking

    Just Lurking Member

    Freight will be coming into our Master Agreement under a separate article like air dept. Look at Article 40 how screwed up could it be.

    Seriously, IBT wants freight to be union and company wants simplification if they are union. They both get want they want and we will be smiling has we get sailed down the river.
  8. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Just Browsing,

    Pal, before you come at me you better take the time to read through this forum and learn more about me and my past comments on this specific issue, especially when you don't even have the guts to openly join like the rest of us. Instead of "Just Browsing" you need to do "More Reading"!

    Would I like a $20 per hour raise? Sure and I'd be damn happy to take it but I also know getting that is also like winning the lottery. Would I be happy if UPS came to the rescue? Sure, absolutely, hell I'd throw a party and celebrate but like winning the lottery when you don't buy a ticket, what are the chances that will happen? Now you starting to figure it out?

    Now go down and read the lower portion of my post where my choices would entail giving up my raises or giving up my vacation time to help resolve this. Now in your little world, maybe you think raises and vactions are nothing but gifts from UPS but it's actually as much a part of your compensation as your weekly paycheck is. Learn some things about how business works and the total costs of business and that aspect will be glaringly obvious. To simplify, it is your money in exchange for your labor! Just as much as the gas in your car or the groceries on your table is your's after you paid for it, so is the money and benefits you derive from your labor.

    Now since you just browse and don't read, I'll better explain it to you. First off, I want to scrap the entire pension system as we know it, give me a lumpsum payoff from CS that I can roll into my 401k and then from here on all "MY" money that UPS transfers to CS for retirement would henceforth be moved into my 401k plan. However, that is not gonna happen so what are the alternatives?

    Like I said in my post had you read it, if you can show me how it would save and restore the plan to where it was I would be happy to do one of the 2 following. Give up "my money" that would have been in the form of a raise or give up "my money" in the form of the option week or vacation week to pay for this. I'd even give up monies from a past raise if you could show this. Now all of the above solutions have to do with me giving up "my money" not UPS giving up "it's" money unless you are under the illusion that all things are UPS and that our individual labor is nothing and the weekly paycheck is only charity on the part of UPS. Some folks have that mentality but then looking at some UPSers, even a few management types, I have to agree. LOL!

    I wholeheartedly agree that by our collective actions in 97' that we gave up any right to look to UPS to correct this problem and I'm sure that comment won't set well with some folks either but that is what I believe. That's also why I never said it other than the wishful comparsion to winning the lottery. It's our problem to fix and once we fix it then it's another issue from then on IMO. Also I stated that I would be against forcing UPSers in jurisdictions with healthy plans to be forced into the same deal as we are nor would I expect PTers to have to make these choices. In fact, I think it unfair to the PTers that their bennies were cut if for no other reason than for an agreement between the company and the union for the company plan to never be better for the PTers than the union controlled FTer plan. I happen to "suspect" that to be the case but don't know for sure.

    As to the mismanagement and who gets the blame, no arguement from me but I will add in one factor in the blame column. UPS does get a little bit of blame to because I do feel they were aware of the train wreck and thus one of the factors of their actions in 97'. Now in defense of UPS, I think labor law has handcuffed them from making direct comments to us as to what they see but at the same time they understoood that their effort to scuttle the strike of 97' with their plan could force the union to raise benefit payouts that would thus accelerate the problem. I don't think UPS deserves a majority of the blame at all but they aren't completely blameless either.

    Now APWA. First off, I like the idea someone has the guts to think outside the box and ask those what if questions that need to be asked, but APWA isn't the answer either the the very same worthless, lazy, no goods that allowed the IBT to run amuck will also let APWA do the same in time. Who am I speaking of? Look in any mirror and yep I see the same thing when I look! The real culprits in this whole deal, the one's who really deserve all the blame and in fact the one's who should have to pay to fix the problem since they sat back and let it happen all because "WE" were to lazy, or to busy to oversee the very thing we should have been overseeing all along. The enemy is us, we are the ones really to blame in all of this because we failed in our duty to take part, look and be knowledgable of what is going on. The only reason we are where we are is because we got lazy and entrusted someone else to do the job for us. The sad truth is the only reason the IBT ain't working is because we've sat back and let the lowest form dominate and control it. The same in time will happen to the APWA as well.

    Now there you go!
  9. oldupsman

    oldupsman Guest

    I don't post very often but when I do I try to say something useful. Here goes.
    I have been told the same thing from both the president of my local union and my district manager here in the Philly burbs. This contract will be settled by about this time next year. They are both absoultley certain of this. It makes perfect sense to me. I can see old junior and Eskew standing there side by side on the 100th aniversery of Founders Day announcing a "groundbreaking labor agreement". All this is fine by me. And I really don't think the teamsters have a choice. They need UPS alot more than UPS needs them.
    IMHO here are some of the things I think you'll see.
    1) Some kind of 401k match. UPS will give part of the pension contribution they give to the teamters directly to the employee instead. This way the teamsters can save face by saying they still control the pension but UPS can still get part of the money directly into our hands.
    2) For those of us in the UPS health care plan (I am), we will be paying something. How much who knows. But compared to what my friends pay must likely it will still be a bargin.
    3) A lot less in the hourly wage increase. Forget this dollar an hour stuff. I wouldn't even be surprised if the last year of the contract isn't tore up when the new one goes into effect. We'll be back to those 50 cent raises.
    4) A long term deal. I believe it will be at least 7 years and could be as long as 10.
    Anybody who thinks the teamsters are "forcing" UPS into contract talks is living in a dream world. UPS wants this done and they are gonna get it done. They don't want to give Fedex or DHL any chance at all of making in roads with customers over a possibe strike. If the teamsters really wanted to force UPS"s hand they let the contract run down until the end. Once junior gets himself re-elected this fall, this contract will be his legacy. And he's not going to go out being rememered as the guy who got beaten up by UPS in a strike.
  10. roadking

    roadking New Member

    Good Job wkmac, You pretty much hit it right on the head !!! That being said I think part of the reason that we have let this happen is not 100% our fault, there is a feeling of helplessness that comes with working with the IBT. I believe a smaller (217,000 not counting the overnight people who have contacted the APWA and pretty much don't want anything to do with the IBT) more responsive union made up of UPS people and working just for UPS people would be a move in the right direction. I would very much like to negotiate our own contract without the burden of the agenda that the IBT has for itself.:cool:
  11. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    The idea of the new contract on the 100th anniversary actually makes very good sense.

    IF APWA were really smart they'd move in with all speed towards UPS Freight and getting them organized ahead of IBT. They might have a real shot after what happened with the IBT at old Overnight plus if they could pull it off, it could go a long way in boosting their standing among rank and file UPSers. Most UPSers I've talked with in my neck of the woods want a UPS only union but see no vehicle to make this happen. A UPS only in freight could open a few eyes and get some folks to thinking. At the very least it may make the IBT more responsive to the average rank and file who go to work, do their job and rarely kick up a fuss or cause trouble.
  12. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    I can't believe the company gave in so easily on early contract talks. I never thought we would give in.:cool: the union must have used some impressive force to force the company into capitulating on early contract negotiations. It appears the way to get UPS to give in is to throw a three week convention in Las Vegas . Something I think I will have to try sometime when I need something from UPS. :thumbup1:
  13. nospinzone

    nospinzone New Member

    From the pro-APWA viewpoint, your first comment makes too much sense and gives me a little thought for concern. If UPS is hell-bent on having an event free 100th anniversary, they may rush into a contract and make some concessions. It would be stupid in the long run for UPS, IMO.

    As far as UPS Freight, Eason and Skillman are not pathological organizers like the IBT is. They have made it quite clear to any interested UPSF guys that if UPSF gets organized by APWA, it will be because the people of UPSF pushed it threw and organized themselves. Eason and Skillman would assist and provide the paperwork/framework with which Freighters could use to organize, but you wont be seeing a large organization campaign being orchestrated by them.
  14. ozzey

    ozzey New Member

    in order to settle the contract early it has to be voted on. for the contract to pass a vote it has to be reasonable for both sides. i think it will be more money into the pension and benifits. less money for raises. imop
  15. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember a point made then that your union has the option of electing to recieve the hourly wage increase as a h&W disbursement if they choose? Would that option still be available now?

    I think you see where I am headed with this. If that option is there now , why not take a national vote on putting one years increase into the pension to build it up.
  16. mittam

    mittam Member

    These statements on this thread is exectly why we need the APWA all your ideas on UPS only pension plans is right along with the APWA join today and start taking control of your pension your career and your family,remember youretire and pension and health care is gone for your spouse with the APWA it will still belong to your spouse not used to fund someone else
  17. mittam

    mittam Member

    this is for all the replies on this thread
  18. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Good question and thinking but in 1985' the contract was expiring as the 82' contract was for 3 years. Instead of the normal process, it was decided to extend the 82' contract and it's language for 2 more years and I know the first raise we got under the extension was taken for H&W but I can't remember if the 2nd year raise was also. Most argued at the time we should have been allowed to vote on the extension but weren't so that alone should answer many questions. That act alone also ignited the TDU movement that lead to many internal union reforms such as direct election of the union president which wasn't the case prior to.

    As to the comment about the company giving in so easy, I can see that since I think on the one hand they hold all the cards, but you can bet UPS does see some advantage somewhere and the most obvious I think you and I will both agree on.

    Think on this! Let's do nothing and wait until late spring of 2008' to begin like we normally do, drag feet, strike authorization vote, public posturing, drag contract beyond expiration date, you know the kinda crap we always do and in the meantime FedEx who has an even greater ground network than in 2002' and who also has numerous automated buildings in their ground network prepared to go live last half of 07' be in a sweet position to scare the customer and whether we strike or not, kill all the hard work and ground we've gained especially the last couple of years. That issue alone even though it wasn't listed on the survey was why I encouraged the union to seek early talks. Any solution to H&W I'm already resided to the fact it will require less if not no raise at all and could even include some form of direct payout weekly or monthly from the employee to either maintain or get us back to where we were so IMO that's a lesser issue to begin with. Let's spoil FedEx's party at our expense is priority #1 IMO. If we don't do that first, chances are we have no chance at all on the other issues!

  19. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    First off Nospin, let's set one thing straight for the record if you are implying my overall views being Pro-APWA. They are not "PRO" but neither am I "ANTI" APWA either. I do like APWA being on the scene because I think other thinking and some competition is good. One beef I do have with you APWA cheerleaders here is I've found at times you make statements that can't be backed up or it was never an APWA position to begin with. Case in point was last year a APWA cheerleader claimed that Skillman and Eason had a plan to take 2 years worth of raises and this would raise enough money to buyout all UPS credit for current and retired UPSers form IBT pension plans and transfer them to the APWA plans and then we could all retire on schedule at an even better benefit that we had prior to the 03' changes. I spoke with Skillman personally and there was never any such plan like that at all. Now Skillman was forthright and honest with me and told me flat out any move to APWA would come to a clean slate where credit would have to be earned over time and that past credit would require you to draw a check form IBT plan and then from an APWA plan if you had enough credits before you retired. He also told me that although he wished something could be done he quite frankly just saw no other way around it and admitted for guys with many years service including himself it would be a sacrifice. I've always admired, respected and appreciated his honesty on that.

    You cheerleader types come here rah-rahing all over the place but at the end of the day I really wonder if you aren't as deceptive as you claim the IBT or in some cases UPS of being? APWA has a lot of good ideas and good going for it but also be man enough like Skillman was with me to admit they aren't able to solve all the problems. It's a fact because nobody and I mean nobody is gonna solve this with somebody having to get hurt and foot the bill. We made our bed in 97' so IMHO it's our problem alone to clean up and if any pain is to be felt it should us first and foremost.

    Just My Honest Opinion!

    BTW: Concerning not understanding my comments to oldups from a pro-APWA Viewpoint? You got a very narrow view my friend because those comments (early contract) had nothing to do with any position regarding APWA or IBT period! Besides, during the rebranding announcment for UPS, Eskew himself spoke of "One UPS"! Concerning organizing UPS Freight, UPS has also greenlighted the IBT to organize the Freight division if they can so if you understand where UPS wants to go you'll understand the "One UPS" idea. If you think UPS will always maintain 2 different networks and no where in the future is the thinking to have a one network meets all demands then you sure missed the boat on the longterm thinking of this company. Besides, these folks have no longterm investment with IBT plans so it will come down to judging one plan against the other and if APWA could gain significant membership numbers among the freight folks, it could allow them to have proven creditibility for the longterm IBT UPSers. Think about that for a moment!
  20. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    "Think on this! Let's do nothing and wait until late spring of 2008' to begin like we normally do, drag feet, strike authorization vote, public posturing,etc"

    WKMAC.... That's the part I never could understand......voting to give authorization for a strike and no details for you to decide on. That, to me, is like signing a a blank bank loan and letting the bank folks fill in the amount you'll pay in interest later. Seems dumb to me. JMO:mellow: