Edison NJ

[JimJimmyJames]

Blah, BLAH , BLAH...

A quick search of the internet can provide all the evidence that is needed that poor people did not cause the financial meltdown, so it is ridiculous for all of us to get into a pissing match about it.

When Bush got into office and the economy tanked, the Fed responded by lowering interest rates. Cheap money led to a housing boom that drove up speculation and inflated real estate values way beyond what they were really worth.

Everyone bought bigger or borrowed more and went on a spending spree which falsely grew the economy. But as we all know what goes up must come down, and since no real value to the economy was added during the Clinton/Bush years, this house of cards was going to fall.

Remember, we offshored our economy since Reagan. We import almost every finished product we consume. What we do export now is mostly raw materials...just like a third world country. And now we have the credit to match.

Also, and this cannot be forgotten, every penny we devote to our empire (in the form of our military industrial complex), is a penny that must be confiscated from our economy. And since we are loathed to pay for it, our government must borrow, destroying our dollar and driving up inflation. Do you think that might have something to do with our recession?

The truth is, the goverment, both Republicans and Democrats have gotten us in the mess we are in, all 545 people who run the joint.

 

[klein]

Besides that Jimmyjames,

take away all those food stamps and welfare payments, and firstly it will sink the economy even more (since they no longer can buy food or clothing ).
And secondly, the nature of the human survival instinct would kick in.
Which is crime. since they need to eat !

And, you couldn't blame them.
I wouldn't sit still and slowly starve to death.
Yes, go work at Mac d's or BK, but not even enough jobs out there for them all.
Or single moms, that simply can't leave thier young children or babies home alone.
And we all know, babysitters or daycare cost more then min. wage nowadays.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Everyone heard that phrase before, and there is some truth behind it.

 

[klein]

Now this is a good documentary about how the economic meltdown was avoidable. :

The Warning

November 10, 2009
Hidden story of the economic meltdown reveals early warning signals that might have prevented it all from happening.


http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/The_Passionate_Eye/ID=1325488934

Good for you too, wkmac (you as a libertarian).

And here is a shorter 7min one: (1 yr after the collapse) :

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/The_Passionate_Eye/ID=1325488934

another 9min (1 yr later vid) :

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/The_Passionate_Eye/ID=1325488934

 

[klein]

Opps, sorry for the mistake above. The other 2 links are the same.
They are only to be found under related links, once the first video starts.

 

[island1fox]

A quick search of the internet can provide all the evidence that is needed that poor people did not cause the financial meltdown, so it is ridiculous for all of us to get into a pissing match about it.

When Bush got into office and the economy tanked, the Fed responded by lowering interest rates. Cheap money led to a housing boom that drove up speculation and inflated real estate values way beyond what they were really worth.

Everyone bought bigger or borrowed more and went on a spending spree which falsely grew the economy. But as we all know what goes up must come down, and since no real value to the economy was added during the Clinton/Bush years, this house of cards was going to fall.

Remember, we offshored our economy since Reagan. We import almost every finished product we consume. What we do export now is mostly raw materials...just like a third world country. And now we have the credit to match.

Also, and this cannot be forgotten, every penny we devote to our empire (in the form of our military industrial complex), is a penny that must be confiscated from our economy. And since we are loathed to pay for it, our government must borrow, destroying our dollar and driving up inflation. Do you think that might have something to do with our recession?

The truth is, the goverment, both Republicans and Democrats have gotten us in the mess we are in, all 545 people who run the joint.

Jimmyjones
A post that has a lot of value ----I agree with just about all of it ---I get "tired " when uneducated ,uninformed people(I am not referring to you) try to take a very complex economy blame one person or say it was solely greed.
Why we went down this road to a pissing match --was my post which did have a simple statement -not greed. A stock price that has not moved in nine years --is not a good return on investment --any stock --that is a fact. Ups as with any viable company first of all must make a profit and second of all should answer to the "owners" the shareholders.
a div of two and a half percent does not make it --people can make more on their money with bank insured cd's. My only point was not greed but a company --any company --in today,s world that is unionized, works under operating"restrictions" pays an excellent salary and benefit package to their employees, should not be "villianized" with petty grievances and outrageous wage demands. In negotiations since the eighties --it must be obvious that the drivers have faired must better than the part-timers .
Again people get angry with me --claim I have a "bad" attitude ---it just reminds me of Jack Nicholson,s famous movie line "You can't handle the truth"
With you --I agree --no need to get into a pissing match ---people can disagree or agree respectfully. Peace !!
P.S .
Not looking to go over old ground --google fannie and freddie -"burning down the house"
Economy was hurt after Sept 11th ---With tax cuts economy came back --lowering of interests rates went on for along time ---I know most Libs want to believe that W was the cause of everything ---but people dig in and drink kool aid ----I agee that all politicians have gotten us here --not by doing the best for America or serving us ---but by serving themselves and their insatiable grabs for POWER --it still goes on today with O. Also housing boom was in full swing under Clinton !!

 

[klein]

It's a shame, this news documentary doesn't work outside of Canada.
But, most of you are right.
Reagen created the mess the USA now faces.
With de-regulation.
And actually nothing has been done yet, to solve another huge meltdown !

The Warning

Monday November 9, 2009 at 10 pm ET/PT & Sunday November 15 at 8 pm ET on CBC News Network


"We didn't truly know the dangers of the market, because it was a dark market," says Brooksley Born, the head of an obscure federal regulatory agency -- the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC). In the late 1990's she not only warned of the potential for economic meltdown, but also tried to convince the country's key economic power brokers to take actions that could have helped avert the crisis. In the devastating aftermath of economic meltdown, The Warning sifts through the ashes for clues about why it happened and examines critical moments when it might have gone much differently."They were totally opposed to it," Born says of her warning. "That puzzled me. What was it that was in this market that had to be hidden?"

The Warning unearths the hidden history of North America's worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. At the center, veteran PBS producer Michael Kirk (Inside the Meltdown) discovers Brooksley Born, who speaks for the first time on television about her failed campaign to regulate the secretive, multi-trillion-dollar derivatives market whose crash helped trigger the financial collapse in the fall of 2008.

"I didn't know Brooksley Born," says former SEC Chairman Arthur Levitt, a member of President Clinton's powerful Working Group on Financial Markets. "I was told that she was irascible, difficult, stubborn, unreasonable." Levitt explains how the other principals of the Working Group -- former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan and former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin -- convinced him that Born's attempt to regulate the risky derivatives market could lead to financial turmoil, a conclusion he now believes was "clearly a mistake."

Born's battle behind closed doors was epic, Kirk finds. The members of the President's Working Group vehemently opposed regulation -- especially when proposed by a Washington outsider like Born.
"I walk into Brooksley's office one day; the blood has drained from her face," says Michael Greenberger, a former top official at the CFTC who worked closely with Born. "She's hanging up the telephone; she says to me: 'That was [former Assistant Treasury Secretary] Larry Summers. He says, "You're going to cause the worst financial crisis since the end of World War II."... [He says he has] 13 bankers in his office who informed him of this. Stop, right away. No more.'"

Greenspan, Rubin and Summers ultimately prevailed on Congress to stop Born and limit future regulation of derivatives. "Born faced a formidable struggle pushing for regulation at a time when the stock market was booming," Kirk says. "Alan Greenspan was the maestro, and both parties in Washington were united in a belief that the markets would take care of themselves."

Now, with many of the same men who shut down Born in key positions in the Obama administration, The Warning reveals the complicated politics that led to this crisis and what it may say about current attempts to prevent the next one.

"It'll happen again if we don't take the appropriate steps," Born warns. "There will be significant financial downturns and disasters attributed to this regulatory gap over and over until we learn from experience."
The Warning is a co-production between the Kirk Documentary Group and Frontline. The writer and director is Michael Kirk.

 

[island1fox]

Klein,
As you have heard so many times before --why don't you stick to Canada before making dopey statements about a country that you are obviously obsessed with.
There are many reasons for the present state of the U.S. and the world's economy. But not too many people can argue that the "housing bubble" created by liberal policies to force banks to lower and ignore proper standards -----The Bill Clinton Legislation that passed in the nineties that sent fannie may and freddie mac into unregulated false growth that was a major cause of the problem. This enabled greedy people on Wall street to bundle "gov backed Mortages" sell as derivatives that collapsed the worlds economy . I blame the left and the right --but dopey statements --Bush did it - etc etc are just foolish .

 

[klein]

Klein,
As you have heard so many times before --why don't you stick to Canada before making dopey statements about a country that you are obviously obsessed with.
There are many reasons for the present state of the U.S. and the world's economy. But not too many people can argue that the "housing bubble" created by liberal policies to force banks to lower and ignore proper standards -----The Bill Clinton Legislation that passed in the nineties that sent fannie may and freddie mac into unregulated false growth that was a major cause of the problem. This enabled greedy people on Wall street to bundle "gov backed Mortages" sell as derivatives that collapsed the worlds economy . I blame the left and the right --but dopey statements --Bush did it - etc etc are just foolish .

I agree with you. And if DS will watch this video, he will, too.
Mostly, though, it all started with Reagen and Greenspan.
And, it just carried on, thru out the years.
Even today, since nothing has been changed.

 

[tieguy]

Klein,
As you have heard so many times before --why don't you stick to Canada before making dopey statements about a country that you are obviously obsessed with.
.

You're right on the money. Have you ever seen anyone dopier?

 

[tieguy]

I agree with you. And if DS will watch this video, he will, too.
Mostly, though, it all started with Reagen and Greenspan.
And, it just carried on, thru out the years.
Even today, since nothing has been changed.

I can see why you're threatened by Reagan. He has something you will never have which is balls. Go back to your herd of sheep and and make sure you give your political masters a good Baaaaaaaa every now and then so they know you are pleased.
In fact you're so afraid to voice you displeasure with canada you go to another country and cry about their system.

 

[klein]

I can see why you're threatened by Reagan. He has something you will never have which is balls. Go back to your herd of sheep and and make sure you give your political masters a good Baaaaaaaa every now and then so they know you are pleased.
In fact you're so afraid to voice you displeasure with canada you go to another country and cry about their system.

It's too bad you can't watch CBC over there.
You would then know, we are better informed then your fox news !

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

It's too bad you can't watch CBC over there.
You would then know, we are better informed then your fox news !

Klein finally makes a point that I can agree with.

We get CBC here and I have found their newscast to be the least biased. I also enjoy their late night TV. I also prefer Tim Horton's over Dunkin Donuts.

BTW, it is spelled Gorbachev.

 

[tieguy]

It's too bad you can't watch CBC over there.
You would then know, we are better informed then your fox news !

I didn't say you weren't informed.

what I said is you take the information and somehow turn it in your mind and turn it into coleslaw.

What I said is you're so afraid to disagree with your canadian masters that you go to another country to do your complaining.

 

[island1fox]

It's too bad you can't watch CBC over there.
You would then know, we are better informed then your fox news !

Cbc, NPR-----etc etc ----U.S. government under Obama now looking to "bail out" news
organizations such as New York TIMES ----while declaring "war" on others.

When will people realize that government "backed " or "CONTROLLED" media will only tell you what they believe you should know.
Where has the public protection gone from our "media watchdogs" ??
With all the blame that has been thrown --why didn"t the media --Msnbc-Fox-Cnn- Newspapers ----ABC,CBS, NBC ----why are they not to blame for the mess we are in ?------because all of them "spin" and tell you what they want -----our watchdog is dead --RIP !!

 

[island1fox]

I am sorry but if a race to the bottom is reality, I will remain happily divorced from it.

But aside from that, I will agree that government handouts are a big cause of our current problems. Too bad we fail to realize that corporate welfare, in the form of support of the military/security complex, along with privatization schemes that increase costs, decrease service but give lucrative contracts to campaign contributors, are the main pigs at the public trough.

That is not even touching on the bailouts given to Wall Street, that bastion of capitalism...until they begin to fail. Then socialism suits them just fine.

Anyways...as to the actions of Local 177. I do support their cause, I am just not sure if taking it "out of house" is the best idea.


Jimjimmyjames'
I could be wrong --but we probably agree more than we disagree !!!
For reasons I am sure you would agree with Fox, in this economy, the public is definitely not going to be sympathetic to folks who are knocking on $30 an hour, or part timers who do have benefits, paid vacations/holidays, etc.

 

[MobileBA]

From what I have read it seems UPS has a diabolical plan for Local 177, I mean why spend that much energy and money being that dysfunctional? Congratulations UPS I think there are more important things going on now!

 

[tieguy]

From what I have read it seems UPS has a diabolical plan for Local 177, I mean why spend that much energy and money being that dysfunctional? Congratulations UPS I think there are more important things going on now!

I think there is a certain amount of dysfuntional in every building we have. Your question could go the other way. Why does 177 have such a diabolical plan for ups. After all they were the ones that took the battle to the air by esculating it into the public.

There are lines we should not cross when we play our daily labor games. 177 pissed all over those lines with what they did. No good can come from it.

 

[Bubblehead]

I think there is a certain amount of dysfuntional in every building we have. Your question could go the other way. Why does 177 have such a diabolical plan for ups. After all they were the ones that took the battle to the air by esculating it into the public.

There are lines we should not cross when we play our daily labor games. 177 pissed all over those lines with what they did. No good can come from it.

Keeping it in house didn't seem to be getting the Union anywhere.
The companies filibuster ways had the union handcuffed.
Anybody who understands the arbitration process vs. panel system would know that the path they were headed down would put the Union in a financial hardship.
The companies pockets are deep and long reaching.
It has always been apparent to me that the company always tests a new system by picking one or several centers, using them as guinea pigs.
This may be exactly what's happening here rather than an advanced state of "dysfunction".
Either way, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Give 'em hell Local 177, piss all over them.

 

[Bubblehead]

And with the high part timer turn over rate, the argument that part time is just a gateway is debatable.

I would argue that nowadays it is a gateway out the door to another job for most people.

If in '87 the company did not offer such a high starting salary for p/t work, I would not be working here today.

You hit the nail on the Jim.
With the present day situation Jimmy alluded to, there are more small business men and single mothers seeking benefits rather than a career minded ladder climbers.
At $34 dollars a day, the door is what these people choose long before the 1 year mark.
Like James, in '86 for me, if this was the case I also would not be with UPS.

 

[tieguy]

Keeping it in house didn't seem to be getting the Union anywhere.
The companies filibuster ways had the union handcuffed.
Anybody who understands the arbitration process vs. panel system would know that the path they were headed down would put the Union in a financial hardship.
The companies pockets are deep and long reaching.
It has always been apparent to me that the company always tests a new system by picking one or several centers, using them as guinea pigs.
This may be exactly what's happening here rather than an advanced state of "dysfunction".
Either way, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Give 'em hell Local 177, piss all over them.

Yep give em hell. And don't come here crying if they decide to close your building down.