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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 259873" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>I'm not pro or con the FairTax because at the end of the day I'm for ending the 16th amendment period and terminating all direct taxation of income by the Federal gov't. However, reality sez that ain't gonna happen so what we really need IMO is for this country to have a completely open and honest dialogue about taxation, it's various forms and means and just what we want to achieve with it. This would of course include the FairTax as well as the various other means of Flat taxes and it would also include the current income tax as well as other forms of progressive taxation. Put everything on the table and give us all the facts and details to go with it.</p><p> </p><p>Every form of taxation is going to have it's good points/bad points and no matter which means you go with someone will find themselves sitting in a bad spot and a lot of that is of no fault of their own. Taxation in this country has been as much about granting the gov't the fiscal means to pay for it's actions as well as using it's power to direct and formulate public policy and public business markets otherwise known as corporate welfare. In many of these situations, a good case IMO could be made that the gov't in effect created false markets to advance a public policy cause or in some cases to drive in further more tax revenues. At some point a good historical discussion on that point is needed here but my guess is few if any are interested so there you go!</p><p> </p><p>It is of the belief of many FairTax and even Flat Tax advocates that under the current tax policies, that the ability to control the taxing power and thus the spending power of the federal gov't has been lost and that is fairly true IMO. Many believe that under this FairTax that is also suggested as being revenue neutral (this may or may not be the case, I'm open to both arguments) will place the power back in the hands of the people as they can control Congress and that over time spending will be cut and thus the % of the tax will be reduced. I'm not that rosey on that prospect but the FairTax IMO does one good thing that gets lost in the current system of income taxation. IMO a solid case can be made that all end users of any product or service that is taxed will always pay all the taxes. In other words, a corporation or business takes their tax liability and they embed this cost into the product or service they sell so that the final consumer of the product does pay all the taxes. In some cases they even double dip as for example UPS matches our SS and medicare taxes on Friday which they in turn pass that labor cost onto the consumer of our shipping services but come April 15th, they are able to write that matching excise tax cost off their income taxes so in some cases you could argue that the bsuiness world profits from the current business model as it relates to taxation.</p><p> </p><p>The FairTax would at least remove that invisible taxation and alledged profit from the business scenario. It would also for the moment pass any excess monies saved from the former means of taxation directly to the business profits bottomline. The question would then be with this flexibility, would the business world pass back down those savings to the consumer? I happen to think in time that it will but over how long a period I don't know nor could I even guarantee. I'm not satisfied that K Street, who does fear the FairTax (another huge plus for the plan IMO) won't pull in favors from their buddies in Congress to somehow keep those funds with Big Business in order to jack up earning per share which lifts Wall Street and share pries and thus pull in international buyers into our stock market. That is one scenario of many.</p><p> </p><p>I applaud Congressman John Linder and Neal Boortz for their efforts in this debate but Steve Forbes and Dick Armey had a Flat Tax ideas, former Texas Senator Phil Gramm also advocated a type of flat tax, Neal Boortz use to parade the "CATS" tax idea and back in the 80's former Idaho Congressman Hansen fought to expose massive IRS abuses (and paid a huge price for it) and he also advocated a flat tax. As one who has studied the income tax and internal IRS policies, the income tax and the means of taxation are a very complicated subject. I can flatly say the income tax is not what is seems and that is why I say again that an open and honest public dialogue is needed if we ever hope to have as good a means of taxation as we can get. The first step however, and right now this IMO seems impossible, is to have an open and honest gov't willing to do what is right in the best interest of the people rather than what is in the best interest of it's K Street masters!</p><p> </p><p>There is no 2 minute tax plan that will solve all ills and make everyone happy. Karl Marx and Fredrich Engles not withstanding, even a progressive income tax system can be as good a means of taxation as any other, but even the best plan of taxation if given to a corrupt and dishonest gov't at the end of the day will become a corrupt and dishonest system itself, so what have you gained? Demand and vote at the polls for people who may not agree point by point with your beliefs but at the end of the day are about honesty and bringing into the full light of day all things gov't. By having all the facts on the table for everyone to see, we at least have the chance of seeing who has vested interests, what they are and how those mesh with making America great for all, not for only the ones who are politically connected with the ruling party!</p><p> </p><p>JMHO</p><p> </p><p>Take care everyone and keep up the open discussion on this subject. I at the very least hugely applaud the idea of the FairTax as it causes people to open discuss our means of taxation in this country and just where we should be going with this policy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 259873, member: 2189"] I'm not pro or con the FairTax because at the end of the day I'm for ending the 16th amendment period and terminating all direct taxation of income by the Federal gov't. However, reality sez that ain't gonna happen so what we really need IMO is for this country to have a completely open and honest dialogue about taxation, it's various forms and means and just what we want to achieve with it. This would of course include the FairTax as well as the various other means of Flat taxes and it would also include the current income tax as well as other forms of progressive taxation. Put everything on the table and give us all the facts and details to go with it. Every form of taxation is going to have it's good points/bad points and no matter which means you go with someone will find themselves sitting in a bad spot and a lot of that is of no fault of their own. Taxation in this country has been as much about granting the gov't the fiscal means to pay for it's actions as well as using it's power to direct and formulate public policy and public business markets otherwise known as corporate welfare. In many of these situations, a good case IMO could be made that the gov't in effect created false markets to advance a public policy cause or in some cases to drive in further more tax revenues. At some point a good historical discussion on that point is needed here but my guess is few if any are interested so there you go! It is of the belief of many FairTax and even Flat Tax advocates that under the current tax policies, that the ability to control the taxing power and thus the spending power of the federal gov't has been lost and that is fairly true IMO. Many believe that under this FairTax that is also suggested as being revenue neutral (this may or may not be the case, I'm open to both arguments) will place the power back in the hands of the people as they can control Congress and that over time spending will be cut and thus the % of the tax will be reduced. I'm not that rosey on that prospect but the FairTax IMO does one good thing that gets lost in the current system of income taxation. IMO a solid case can be made that all end users of any product or service that is taxed will always pay all the taxes. In other words, a corporation or business takes their tax liability and they embed this cost into the product or service they sell so that the final consumer of the product does pay all the taxes. In some cases they even double dip as for example UPS matches our SS and medicare taxes on Friday which they in turn pass that labor cost onto the consumer of our shipping services but come April 15th, they are able to write that matching excise tax cost off their income taxes so in some cases you could argue that the bsuiness world profits from the current business model as it relates to taxation. The FairTax would at least remove that invisible taxation and alledged profit from the business scenario. It would also for the moment pass any excess monies saved from the former means of taxation directly to the business profits bottomline. The question would then be with this flexibility, would the business world pass back down those savings to the consumer? I happen to think in time that it will but over how long a period I don't know nor could I even guarantee. I'm not satisfied that K Street, who does fear the FairTax (another huge plus for the plan IMO) won't pull in favors from their buddies in Congress to somehow keep those funds with Big Business in order to jack up earning per share which lifts Wall Street and share pries and thus pull in international buyers into our stock market. That is one scenario of many. I applaud Congressman John Linder and Neal Boortz for their efforts in this debate but Steve Forbes and Dick Armey had a Flat Tax ideas, former Texas Senator Phil Gramm also advocated a type of flat tax, Neal Boortz use to parade the "CATS" tax idea and back in the 80's former Idaho Congressman Hansen fought to expose massive IRS abuses (and paid a huge price for it) and he also advocated a flat tax. As one who has studied the income tax and internal IRS policies, the income tax and the means of taxation are a very complicated subject. I can flatly say the income tax is not what is seems and that is why I say again that an open and honest public dialogue is needed if we ever hope to have as good a means of taxation as we can get. The first step however, and right now this IMO seems impossible, is to have an open and honest gov't willing to do what is right in the best interest of the people rather than what is in the best interest of it's K Street masters! There is no 2 minute tax plan that will solve all ills and make everyone happy. Karl Marx and Fredrich Engles not withstanding, even a progressive income tax system can be as good a means of taxation as any other, but even the best plan of taxation if given to a corrupt and dishonest gov't at the end of the day will become a corrupt and dishonest system itself, so what have you gained? Demand and vote at the polls for people who may not agree point by point with your beliefs but at the end of the day are about honesty and bringing into the full light of day all things gov't. By having all the facts on the table for everyone to see, we at least have the chance of seeing who has vested interests, what they are and how those mesh with making America great for all, not for only the ones who are politically connected with the ruling party! JMHO Take care everyone and keep up the open discussion on this subject. I at the very least hugely applaud the idea of the FairTax as it causes people to open discuss our means of taxation in this country and just where we should be going with this policy. [/QUOTE]
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