Founders Day 2009~ What is the Status of the Management "Partnership"

[hellfire]

That is not their job.
Their job is to look at our competition, what our customers are willing to pay, projected taxes, etc. and projected earnings.
Then:
Look at the cost to operate our systems and support which if it is too high, authorize management to reduce the costs accordingly.
Theirs is a very sanitized view with few if any details needed to be understood.

I also think Scott could do a pretty good job of running a center.

you misread the intent of the post---****'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''both employees and customers needed to be treated with respect. Scott Davis sees his employees no differently than the broken, torn boxes that moves through his system.***'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' there is no chance in hell that him,,you,,or pretzel could live up to the fantasy world numbers that are made to be absolute ,, say what you want,,untill you assume the role or live in the real money making portion of ups than you have no idea about day today operations

 

[pretzel_man]

you misread the intent of the post---****'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''both employees and customers needed to be treated with respect. Scott Davis sees his employees no differently than the broken, torn boxes that moves through his system.***'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' there is no chance in hell that him,,you,,or pretzel could live up to the fantasy world numbers that are made to be absolute ,, say what you want,,untill you assume the role or live in the real money making portion of ups than you have no idea about day today operations

I think its an easy excuse to say I have "no idea about day today operations". I'm in operations regularly and have a proven track record of improving the ones I work with.

Just because my job today is not to be an operator, doesn't mean I can't do the job. Although its been 20 years, I've run Hub, Feeder, Package and Air operations in the past.

Some things then were easier than today, some harder. It certainly was no cakewalk.

You can't simultaneously complain that management is poor, and then complain when someone like me says things can be better with better numbers.

P-Man

 

[raceanoncr]

...and no airplane parts!

DAMN!!! I was really, REALLY waiting for that last part this year to complete my life-size replecation of a UPS Boeing 757 down in my basement!!!!!

 

[UnconTROLLed]

No recognizing Founders Day in our hub, one of the largest in the U.S. not a PCM, not a whisper.

 

[brownone]

I think its an easy excuse to say I have "no idea about day today operations". I'm in operations regularly and have a proven track record of improving the ones I work with.

Just because my job today is not to be an operator, doesn't mean I can't do the job. Although its been 20 years, I've run Hub, Feeder, Package and Air operations in the past.

Some things then were easier than today, some harder. It certainly was no cakewalk.

You can't simultaneously complain that management is poor, and then complain when someone like me says things can be better with better numbers.

P-Man

Pretzel, I have no doubt you could come back and run an operation. The problem is that the decisions being made by the coporate office are affecting the partnership legacy that has been the back bone of UPS. In general there is a lack of trust that the board cares what happens to the management team. I love this company and bleed brown, but at some point they need to stop taking from the management team. I undesrtand we must change, but even the latest benefit change shows the tide continues to shift toward taking care of the union memebers and sticking it to the managment team. I have no problem paying for a part of my benefits and have always sold it to my people, but the latest increase is ridiculous. The increase is nothing short of an additional pay cut, based on the lack of raises this year. I actually had an HR person tell me that I should consider using my wife's benefits, instead of questioning the changes. Sad part is my wife is a stay at home mom, but even if she was not is that the message we want to send to our management team? Bottom lines is coporate has lost touch with the management team in the centers and hub. I would say again if we need to cut true cost we need to force poeple out who are sitting on the bench with no true job. Offer them a job in operations and if they refuse, send them to the street. While this may seem harsh, in this economy it is what really needs to be done.

 

[pretzel_man]

Pretzel, I have no doubt you could come back and run an operation. The problem is that the decisions being made by the coporate office are affecting the partnership legacy that has been the back bone of UPS. In general there is a lack of trust that the board cares what happens to the management team. I love this company and bleed brown, but at some point they need to stop taking from the management team. I undesrtand we must change, but even the latest benefit change shows the tide continues to shift toward taking care of the union memebers and sticking it to the managment team. I have no problem paying for a part of my benefits and have always sold it to my people, but the latest increase is ridiculous. The increase is nothing short of an additional pay cut, based on the lack of raises this year. I actually had an HR person tell me that I should consider using my wife's benefits, instead of questioning the changes. Sad part is my wife is a stay at home mom, but even if she was not is that the message we want to send to our management team? Bottom lines is coporate has lost touch with the management team in the centers and hub. I would say again if we need to cut true cost we need to force poeple out who are sitting on the bench with no true job. Offer them a job in operations and if they refuse, send them to the street. While this may seem harsh, in this economy it is what really needs to be done.

Brownone:

I gave my thoughts on a previous one to you. I believe that the major issue is lack of growth. This is the core problem...

Lets look at the situation Atlanta is faced with.....

We are not growing, so our sins are not masked by large increases. Competitors are undercutting cost and overpomising service. We are then forced to respond. Health care costs are rapidly increasing. Someone must pay for it.

So, everyone is trying to take from the same pie. Teamsters, Customers, Management, Shareowners. Its up to Atlanta to make the decision on how to divide up this pie that is not increasing.

I agree that management is paying the price right now. If the stock grows, we will all be happy with this short term impact. MIP is paying more shares even though the total payout is less. If that base grows, that is great.

I am not opposed to cutting management who may be extra. I think that is harder to do than it sounds...

In the mean time, we need to manage as well as we can until the economy turns around. We need our packages back....

P-Man

 

[hellfire]

I agree with you....

Not recognizing Founders' Day is shameful. Whoever decided that (or ignored the need) in the district made a huge mistake.

I agree that its not about cake or cost. Recognition of our history and people can be accomplished for little or no cost.

P-Man

founders day?? another example of how you dont represent the real ups world

 

[Catatonic]

Originally Posted by pretzel_man
I agree with you....

Not recognizing Founders' Day is shameful. Whoever decided that (or ignored the need) in the district made a huge mistake.

I agree that its not about cake or cost. Recognition of our history and people can be accomplished for little or no cost.

P-Man

founders day?? another example of how you dont represent the real ups world

Huh? What's that saying about not opening your mouth because it removes any doubt?

 

[hellfire]

I think its an easy excuse to say I have "no idea about day today operations". I'm in operations regularly and have a proven track record of improving the ones I work with.

Just because my job today is not to be an operator, doesn't mean I can't do the job. Although its been 20 years, I've run Hub, Feeder, Package and Air operations in the past.

Some things then were easier than today, some harder. It certainly was no cakewalk.

You can't simultaneously complain that management is poor, and then complain when someone like me says things can be better with better numbers.

P-Man

numbers numbers numbers,,there you go,,not real world interactions ,,numbers.....and yes,, in 26 yrs at big brown ive seen management( at the lowely stupid operations level ) fall to a all time morale low,, along with hourly morale.....we recently had a big time super star atlanta hero come to our center ..THE PARKING LOT PLANTS WERE REPLACED AND RE-MULCHED,, PKG CARS WERE WAXED that have not been in yrs? ...im tellin you man,,you dont live in the real ups world....................

 

[hellfire]

Huh? What's that saying about not opening your mouth because it removes any doubt?

man do you ever work?? what do you answer phones in atlanta and post 100 times a day here??,, really man what do you do at ups when your posting here 24/7??

 

[Catatonic]

man do you ever work?? what do you answer phones in atlanta and post 100 times a day here??,, really man what do you do at ups when your posting here 24/7??

I leave my connection to BC up at home so it looks like I am on 24/7.
Seriously, I never post or even go to Brown Cafe from work.

 

[bigblu 2 you]

numbers numbers numbers,,there you go,,not real world interactions ,,numbers.....and yes,, in 26 yrs at big brown ive seen management( at the lowely stupid operations level ) fall to a all time morale low,, along with hourly morale.....we recently had a big time super star atlanta hero come to our center ..THE PARKING LOT PLANTS WERE REPLACED AND RE-MULCHED,, PKG CARS WERE WAXED that have not been in yrs? ...im tellin you man,,you dont live in the real ups world....................

we only do that when we get our 10 year audits.

 

[beentheredonethat]

Brownone:

I gave my thoughts on a previous one to you. I believe that the major issue is lack of growth. This is the core problem...

Lets look at the situation Atlanta is faced with.....

We are not growing, so our sins are not masked by large increases. Competitors are undercutting cost and overpomising service. We are then forced to respond. Health care costs are rapidly increasing. Someone must pay for it.

So, everyone is trying to take from the same pie. Teamsters, Customers, Management, Shareowners. Its up to Atlanta to make the decision on how to divide up this pie that is not increasing.

I agree that management is paying the price right now. If the stock grows, we will all be happy with this short term impact. MIP is paying more shares even though the total payout is less. If that base grows, that is great.

I am not opposed to cutting management who may be extra. I think that is harder to do than it sounds...

In the mean time, we need to manage as well as we can until the economy turns around. We need our packages back....

P-Man

P-Man,
For mgmt, No longer is it "Mgmt" it seems corporate has clearly made it clear there's low level mgmt (Definitely 16 and below), (possibly include 18's in there). And there's high level mgmt (gr 20 and above). The folks at high level, have shares earned over the years and to them, the no pay raise is nothing as compared to if the dividend were cut in half. For low level mgmt, a div cut wouldn't have affected us as much. The decision is clear, protect the higher ups and have low level pay for it. It's real frustrating, as the 20's and above are feeding at the trough, the low level mgmt is getting hurt and I see serious problems for this company 10 years down the road. Let's see mgmt lost a lot of chance for upward mobility. No pay raise, MIP is a magic number now. No one knows how it is figured out, since it's made up. There's no doubt since the change, if we still used the old formula, the MIP would have been higher. Also, now we can't use 1/2 the MIP right away, it's vested. Every year it's more and more they are taking away.

 

[brownone]

P-Man,
For mgmt, No longer is it "Mgmt" it seems corporate has clearly made it clear there's low level mgmt (Definitely 16 and below), (possibly include 18's in there). And there's high level mgmt (gr 20 and above). The folks at high level, have shares earned over the years and to them, the no pay raise is nothing as compared to if the dividend were cut in half. For low level mgmt, a div cut wouldn't have affected us as much. The decision is clear, protect the higher ups and have low level pay for it. It's real frustrating, as the 20's and above are feeding at the trough, the low level mgmt is getting hurt and I see serious problems for this company 10 years down the road. Let's see mgmt lost a lot of chance for upward mobility. No pay raise, MIP is a magic number now. No one knows how it is figured out, since it's made up. There's no doubt since the change, if we still used the old formula, the MIP would have been higher. Also, now we can't use 1/2 the MIP right away, it's vested. Every year it's more and more they are taking away.

You are dead on....

 

[pretzel_man]

P-Man,
For mgmt, No longer is it "Mgmt" it seems corporate has clearly made it clear there's low level mgmt (Definitely 16 and below), (possibly include 18's in there). And there's high level mgmt (gr 20 and above). The folks at high level, have shares earned over the years and to them, the no pay raise is nothing as compared to if the dividend were cut in half. For low level mgmt, a div cut wouldn't have affected us as much. The decision is clear, protect the higher ups and have low level pay for it. It's real frustrating, as the 20's and above are feeding at the trough, the low level mgmt is getting hurt and I see serious problems for this company 10 years down the road. Let's see mgmt lost a lot of chance for upward mobility. No pay raise, MIP is a magic number now. No one knows how it is figured out, since it's made up. There's no doubt since the change, if we still used the old formula, the MIP would have been higher. Also, now we can't use 1/2 the MIP right away, it's vested. Every year it's more and more they are taking away.

As I said before, everyone in management has a right to be frustrated. Your assertion of blame is misplaced in my opinion. The real enemy is lack of growth.

This has affected opportunity, stock growth, MIP calculations, and ability to give raises. All of those things were mentioned by you as problems.

Do you really think that dividends are given so that higher level management gets rewarded. It has nothing to do with that.

You seem to believe that we should have given out management raises instead of paying dividends. Lets assume they did that.

Since the raises would have reduced EPS, stock would have shrunk. Since Dividends are one of the reasons for our stock value, it would have shrunk even further.

The management committee must balance Shareholder needs, Customer needs, and employee needs. In this case, they chose to take some from management employees and not reduce shareowner dividends.

P-Man

 

[BURMDPsupe]

Pretzel,

I've followed quite a few of your post and I do value your statements; however, from what I am seeing down here in the trenches is terrible moral amongst the under 16s. I get the feeling that corporate would like to see some attrition with certain management folks, but "be careful what you wish for" may be the case when there is too much "brain drain." No matter how much technology UPS implements, good, solid performing supervisors are still an asset. I fear that when the economy turns around, the "brain drain" will start.

M-

 

[pretzel_man]

Pretzel,

I've followed quite a few of your post and I do value your statements; however, from what I am seeing down here in the trenches is terrible moral amongst the under 16s. I get the feeling that corporate would like to see some attrition with certain management folks, but "be careful what you wish for" may be the case when there is too much "brain drain." No matter how much technology UPS implements, good, solid performing supervisors are still an asset. I fear that when the economy turns around, the "brain drain" will start.

M-

I can't argue with what you say except that I do not see a corporate conspiracy.

I am VERY concerned about our younger people. Just like you are. In my first 10 years in UPS, I saw many assignments. I saw a place where my investment would grow. I also saw the opportunity for new assignments and promotion.

10 year employees today have seen none of that. They do not have any understanding of the reward of growth.

My point has been that growth is what we need. If you read and listen to what the management committee is saying, they are talking about the need for growth. This is what is missing.

That is what us "old timers" saw.

P-Man

 

[beentheredonethat]

As I said before, everyone in management has a right to be frustrated. Your assertion of blame is misplaced in my opinion. The real enemy is lack of growth.

This has affected opportunity, stock growth, MIP calculations, and ability to give raises. All of those things were mentioned by you as problems.

Do you really think that dividends are given so that higher level management gets rewarded. It has nothing to do with that.

You seem to believe that we should have given out management raises instead of paying dividends. Lets assume they did that.

Since the raises would have reduced EPS, stock would have shrunk. Since Dividends are one of the reasons for our stock value, it would have shrunk even further.

The management committee must balance Shareholder needs, Customer needs, and employee needs. In this case, they chose to take some from management employees and not reduce shareowner dividends.

P-Man

What I think is so ironic, is that I've been in many depts over the years and many of them in IE. Now though I'm involved more with the customers and IE folks first comments when we are working on winning a 1000/day customer is well that's going to cost us a driver or the facility can't handle the extra volume. I find it absolutely amazing hearing that when we also hear we need more volume. I've stated on previous posts, I'd like to see the dividend go down (1/2) or more and take that money and put it towards more reinvestment in the company. Expand the capacity of our most help needed facilities. Replace some buildings that are 50+ years old that are designed for nothing more then 50 lb OS1 boxes. This will help growth in the long run. Also, I totally 100% believe that the decision is to not to touch the dividend since it will affect the higher ups the most. Most of those folks have a ton of money in UPS, also many of them Hypo'ed and still hypo. If the dividend were cut they'd be hurt seriously. Wall Street isn't excited about the dividend. If they did, then our stock should be much better then FDX, since our dividend is so much better. But that's not the case. Also, if upper mgmt wanted to reduce the MIP level (which they did) to mgmt. Fine, tell us up front that 15% of pretax profits is too high, from now on it's 12% or 10% or whatever. Don't lie to us and make up numbers.

 

[Black_6_Leader]

It sounds like this thread is starting to encourage the discussion that I desired. For me, it comes down to leadership, and trust in the higher level managers in UPS.

A quote that I found on a posting on UPSers.com, called "A Shared Culture The stories, values, lessons, people, and spirit that embody UPS" Found on page 12 is this statement attributed to our first accountant CEO George Smith in 1961 "Get rid of double standards of behavior —one for the workers and one for the management".

My concern is that we have become three companies one for Senior managers; one for front line leadership and lastly one for all other employees. Let me quote from page 20 of the 2008 Proxy statment: "In 2008, UPS approved an average base salary increase of 3.5% for all management employees other than members of the Management Committee based upon company performance in 2007."

Or this gem found on page 27 of the same proxy "While it expects to continue to monitor the effect of global economic conditions on the Company, the Compensation Committee is committed to the implementation of its plan to increase the total compensation of these three executive officer positions."


Need I go on? We cannot embrace this culture and legacy on one hand then have the senior managers (that includes the Board of Directors) march 180 degrees in the other direction.

 

[JustTired]

Or this gem found on page 27 of the same proxy "While it expects to continue to monitor the effect of global economic conditions on the Company, the Compensation Committee is committed to the implementation of its plan to increase the total compensation of these three executive officer positions."

My thoughts are that ....if these three executive officers are only hanging around to get as much as they can at the expense of others' compensation, then " 'good ridance' and don't let the door hit you on the way out". After all, there's a line of people waiting to take their place. (Where have I heard that before?)

The question I have for them is "How much is enough?"
When they have enough money to buy just about anything they want....isn't that enough?
When they have to think of things to do with their money as opposed to paying the bills and putting food on the table....isn't that enough?
When their greed has put other "partners" in a world of hurt by lowering their compensation.....isn't that enough?

Just how much is enough? A simple question that I'd bet won't get an answer.