Frequently Asked Questions About the union

[vantexan]

It could be argued that the Ground model is good for the economy.

Interesting. Republicans have been arguing for years that the economy would be better if people kept more of their money to spend in the economy rather than give it to the government. But what they really mean is the people who own the companies should keep as much as possible for themselves. Pay your employees better, let them spend it in the economy, and let's see if the economy is better or worse.

 

[MrFedEx]

Interesting. Republicans have been arguing for years that the economy would be better if people kept more of their money to spend in the economy rather than give it to the government. But what they really mean is the people who own the companies should keep as much as possible for themselves. Pay your employees better, let them spend it in the economy, and let's see if the economy is better or worse.

But, Republicans don't generally pay their employees better. They keep the money for themselves or reinvest it into the company. You should know this, because we work for Mr. Tea Party, a man who thinks we are overpaid already.

 

[Code 82 Approved]

R1a:

I am a Ground driver for a multi route contractor who owns Ground and HD routes in two states, never did I claim to own my own route(s).

When I started 7 years ago, yes I made $600/ week.

​And my kid earned a full academic scholarship.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

It could be argued that the Ground model is good for the economy.

It could be argued that the Earth is flat too.

 

[bbsam]

I sorry you're not bright enough to know that this scam business of yours can come crashing down like a house of cards. When, who knows?

In the meanwhile have fun while it lasts.

It will be a good, long time. The more Ground grows and the more multiple route owners there are and the more driver that are on the road, the more the independence of the contractor takes form. It becomes more and more obvious to any court or government agency that dependent upon the skill and management style of each how much profit or loss can be realized. When it was mostly single route owners, that was harder to see.

 

[MrFedEx]

It could be argued that the Earth is flat too.

The Earth is flat, like the top of a Ground driver's head.

 

[MrFedEx]

It will be a good, long time. The more Ground grows and the more multiple route owners there are and the more driver that are on the road, the more the independence of the contractor takes form. It becomes more and more obvious to any court or government agency that dependent upon the skill and management style of each how much profit or loss can be realized. When it was mostly single route owners, that was harder to see.

Uh, no. What will become more evident is the degree of control (there's that pesky phrase again) that the Federal Express Corporation exerts over contractor operations. Skill and management style do not alter that degree of control.

Sorry, good try.

 

[vantexan]

But, Republicans don't generally pay their employees better. They keep the money for themselves or reinvest it into the company. You should know this, because we work for Mr. Tea Party, a man who thinks we are overpaid already.

​And if you look at what I wrote you'll see that that's exactly what I wrote.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

​And if you look at what I wrote you'll see that that's exactly what I wrote.

I thought you did too.

I think we just couldn't believe what we were reading from you, lol....

 

[bbsam]

Uh, no. What will become more evident is the degree of control (there's that pesky phrase again) that the Federal Express Corporation exerts over contractor operations. Skill and management style do not alter that degree of control.

Sorry, good try.

You really should read a sample agreement before you prove how little you know of the situation. Nice try though.

 

[MrFedEx]

You really should read a sample agreement before you prove how little you know of the situation. Nice try though.

I know how Fred runs his opcos. You are there to make it appear as though he (Fred) doesn't run the Big Show. He is the owner, ringmaster, and Head Clown of the Ground circus. You are the puppet on a string who plays his part...that's all.

 

[bbsam]

Exactly. And as long as the puppetmaster leaves a certain amount of wiggle to the puppet, all is good.

I know how Fred runs his opcos. You are there to make it appear as though he (Fred) doesn't run the Big Show. He is the owner, ringmaster, and Head Clown of the Ground circus. You are the puppet on a string who plays his part...that's all.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

You really should read a sample agreement before you prove how little you know of the situation. Nice try though.

Agreements are one thing, but law looks at how it is applied amongst many other things.
Words and contracts are powerful no doubt, but that is just one facet of the many the Supreme Court will eventually be asked to review in deciding the degree of control.
Our legal system is much more complex.Especially when we are talking about a "system", like Ground , vs enforcing or deciding on contract law between 2 parties.
​

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

We can speculate all we want on how it will eventually turn out, but it will most likely reach the high court.
And it will probably be decided on ideology.
In my opinion the odds are good for a more employee friendly Supreme Court for the next decade or so, that could be bad for Fred.
Long term however, if the corporations continue to dominate politics, it could become a total corporate dominated Supreme Court.
That could be 50 years or so away.

 

[vantexan]

We can speculate all we want on how it will eventually turn out, but it will most likely reach the high court.
And it will probably be decided on ideology.
In my opinion the odds are good for a more employee friendly Supreme Court for the next decade or so, that could be bad for Fred.
Long term however, if the corporations continue to dominate politics, it could become a total corporate dominated Supreme Court.
That could be 50 years or so away.

To reach the high court a case has to lose at a series of lower courts, being appealed up to the next highest one. Then the Supreme Court, if it reaches them, looks at all the cases before them and decides which ones to review. If not reviewed then the previous court's ruling stands. Because the ISP model is structured to satisfy the courts, and there is legal precedent from cases won by FedEx, there has to be some compelling reason for it to reach the Supreme Court and be considered over other cases. The only thing I can think of is using contractors becomes commonplace in the workplace amongst many industries and the courts might want to define what is permissible and what goes too far. Unfortunately I doubt that they care if we feel we aren't getting paid well enough. It's not slavery and people are free to choose whether to accept a job and it's legal conditions or not. I was looking at jobs listed on the Texas Workforce Commission website yesterday and it's amazing how little many jobs pay, including trucking jobs that require a Class A license with various endorsements. I want better pay too, but it's highly unlikely due to the RLA that I'll get it. But more than anything I just want FedEx to honor their promises, and the courts can't instill honor in pirates.

 

[Ricochet1a]

I advocate for a two-tiered system as I see Ground as becoming even more of a threat in the next 5-10 years and UPS needs to do something to address the wage disparity. They have already decimated management ranks, consolidated regions, eliminated districts---the next logical step would be hourly wages.

IMO $25/hr w/benefits is a fair wage for a FT seniority UPS driver.

Where does it end? We are talking about a job which requires only a HS diploma and drivers license. With PAS/EDD and ROADS/DRA, the driver job has been dumbed down to the point where any schmuck off the street with minimal training can get through a delivery route. No, they won't post the numbers mgt is used to, but the packages would get delivered and picked up and isn't that really why we are all here?

I would hope that future generations of UPSer would continue to enjoy industry leading wages and benefits; however, I just don't see the company being able to sustain our current business model in light of the ever-increasing presence of Ground.

This is where I unfortunately see commonality between many of those who are topped out in Express and have 20+ years under the DBPP (to their coworkers who have less than 10 years in) and many in UPS (to their future coworkers). To put the commonality simply:

I've got mine, too damn bad the rest of you won't get yours.

In 1886, railroad robber baron Jay Gould was quoted as saying (while hiring strikebreakers), "I could hire half of the working class to kill the other half". Over 125 years later, he is proven to still be correct.

Instead of surrendering to the existence of the Ground model, why don't you, your coworkers and your union do something about it and get Congress to more narrowly define the provisions of labor law that would put an end to such shenanigans?

You mock the Express Couriers for not having the cojones to take action to better their plight - what's your excuse? You've got union protection in place....

It could be argued that the Ground model is good for the economy.

Just as Jay Gould's hiring of strike breakers in 1886 was 'good for the economy' back then....

It just floors me that one of the beneficiaries of the labor movement, has this warped view on how an economy should be structured, and for whose interest should prevail to ensure "economic harmony".

In a welfare state where those whose income falls below a certain level are given supplemental support by the government, there IS NO SOCIETAL BENEFIT to having the Ground model in existence. The federal government (and in many cases, state governments), are SUBSIDIZING the existence of the Ground helpers (food stamps, free/reduced price school lunch for their children, rent assistance, earned income tax credit, and on and on).

Those in society that are supposedly benefiting from saving a few cents on shipping are paying that and MORE in terms of additional taxes which goes to subsidize the existence of the "employees" of Ground (misclassified as they are). ALL OF SOCIETY is footing the bill for Fred S's little legal two step which he calls FedEx Ground.

If it is so good for the economy, why don't you just agree to sacrifice YOUR pay, to ensure those that enter UPS to perform the same job that you've spent a career doing - are paid equitably?

If it is so good for society, why don't you and all of your coworkers agree to let UPS restructure its business model and compensate you in line with what Ground compensates it drivers? After all, if it is so good for society in your mind, you ought to have no problem in taking a healthy portion of that 'goodness' yourself...

Nope.... times are a changin' (history is cyclic...), you got yours, too damn bad those who will be coming in won't quite get theirs.

R1a:

I am a Ground driver for a multi route contractor who owns Ground and HD routes in two states, never did I claim to own my own route(s).

When I started 7 years ago, yes I made $600/ week.

​And my kid earned a full academic scholarship.

So you AREN'T paying for your kids education (like I said), and you were indeed hired in at $600/week.

So you are paid in the ball park of $800/week now, so you claim? It took you 7 years to move from $600/wk to $800/wk - and you still have no health benefits or retirement plan...

 

[Cactus]

It could be argued that the Ground model is good for the economy.

If you think Ground is the bee's knees then quit UPS now and go work for peasant wages at Ground.

Don't let us stop you.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

To reach the high court a case has to lose at a series of lower courts, being appealed up to the next highest one. Then the Supreme Court, if it reaches them, looks at all the cases before them and decides which ones to review. If not reviewed then the previous court's ruling stands. Because the ISP model is structured to satisfy the courts, and there is legal precedent from cases won by FedEx, there has to be some compelling reason for it to reach the Supreme Court and be considered over other cases. The only thing I can think of is using contractors becomes commonplace in the workplace amongst many industries and the courts might want to define what is permissible and what goes too far. Unfortunately I doubt that they care if we feel we aren't getting paid well enough. It's not slavery and people are free to choose whether to accept a job and it's legal conditions or not. I was looking at jobs listed on the Texas Workforce Commission website yesterday and it's amazing how little many jobs pay, including trucking jobs that require a Class A license with various endorsements. I want better pay too, but it's highly unlikely due to the RLA that I'll get it. But more than anything I just want FedEx to honor their promises, and the courts can't instill honor in pirates.

I posted about a case the Kansas Surpreme Court was taking up a few months back.

They brought up the significance of the issue since they deemed it likely to head eventually to the US Surpreme Court.
I can not find if it has been decided yet but I will repost the link.

Seventh Circuit Seeks Kansas Court Ruling On Employee Status of FedEx Ground Drivers | Bloomberg BNA

 

[Code 82 Approved]

R1a:

I delivered around 50k packages, I have a 401k, contractor matched, life insurance paid by the contractor, and although not as lucrative as my original gig when I had 6 weeks of paid vacation for years one and two, I am online for three this year.
My original gig was private swing driver, hired by a group of 5, who wanted more vacation.

​But back then at $600 I had only the vacation... nothing else.
And I do have healthcare..vision and dental. Those alone are probably more valuable than the original $600, so to say I only improved at bare minimum $200 is untrue.

And on craigslist a few weeks ago, I saw an ad offering $1000 per week in Las Vegas, from a Ground/HD multi routecontractor.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

If you think Ground is the bee's knees then quit UPS now and go work for peasant wages at Ground.

Don't let us stop you.

I never said it was good for my economy.