Gibson Guitars Raided By Feds

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by wkmac, Aug 26, 2011.

  1. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

  2. av8torntn

    av8torntn Well-Known Member

    I am on vacation and was supposed to go on the factory tour that day.
     
  3. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    Thats just ridiculous, its ironic that you have Liberal minded people picking on a group that is mostly of the same kind of thinking. How is the average guitar player going to know where or when a piece of their instrument was made?
     
  4. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    Well if we are talking about the "rule of law", it shouldn't matter that the administration is "picking on a group that is mostly of the same kind of thinking".
     
  5. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Seems the Gibson drama may be developing and a more interesting angle to it.


     
  6. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    So why dont they just ask the administration why one and not the other? Because the conclusion easiest too jump to is too juicy.
     
  7. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Be careful there Scratch because that could be very wrong.
    :wink2:
     
  8. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Sure because anything to "butter your biscuits" or "wind your watch" is worth it! And are you going to sit there and say you don't think politics like this don't play both ways?

    You don't think an Andrew Breitbart would stretch the truth about a speech in order to drive a wedge between the African American community and a gov't adminstration along with an African American organization in order to achieve a political outcome for future electoral purposes? And you don't think that kind of stuff works both ways? Really?
     
  9. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    The point I was trying to make is that a Green movement group was probably behind these laws being made that are now effecting musicians, who often seem to lean to the Left.
     
  10. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    In reading the Gibson response also with the CEO's comments, it may be that the green thing has nothing much to do with it at all. As a result, the spector of the political on this side of the pond is rearing it's ugly head.
     
  11. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    That's just it. Politics plays both ways and corporations fund both parties. I don't think the dens would do this as a political move because they stand a good chance at getting that money in the next election cycle. So the question, why Gibson? Who knows? Maybe that's where the evidence led. Maybe others will follow. Why do cops pull some speeders over and not others? The world may never know.
     
  12. trplnkl

    trplnkl 555

    Sounds to me that Scratch is connecting the "green" aspect of this in the creating of the laws Gibson is accused of violating, not to the enforcement of the laws.
     
  13. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    [h=2]DOJ Raids Gibson Guitars over Alleged Environmental Infractions, but Mum’s Still the Word on ‘Fast and Furious’[/h]
    To be honest, when I first read the story, I thought maybe Gibson Guitars had done something terrible like sell 2,500 guitars to straw purchasers who were then going to do something crazy, like illegally transporting the instruments out of the country and into the hands of Mexican cartel members south of the border.
    But alas, as the details of the raid have come out it’s apparent that the reasons behind it were far less substantial: in fact, the reasons behind it seem to be flimsier than flimsy.
    This is because the reason provided for raiding Gibson and confiscating half a million dollars worth of guitar making material is an alleged violation of environmental standards on Gibson’s part.
    I stress alleged because Gibson has documentation that proves the charges are baseless and the materials they’re using to make fingerboards for their instruments were acquired under the law, rather than in circumvention of it.
    What’s especially troubling about this raid – besides the fact that it was conducted by the DOJ of an administration that has no qualms with ignoring laws they don’t agree with (like the Defense of Marriage Act) – is that it’s the second one Obama’s DOJ has carried out against Gibson. (The first was in 2009.)

    In other news, while the death toll in Mexico continues to climb and “Fast and Furious” weapons are showing up at crime scenes in the U.S. at a rate that even the L.A. Times can’t ignore, the DOJ’s ridiculous attempt to catch Mexican drug cartel members (at the expense of American laws and American lives) has yet to result in any raids on Attorney General Eric Holder’s office or the home of the ATF’s William Newell or the residences of any number of other administration officials.
    Call me crazy, but it seems that harassing a successful American business (Gibson Guitars) under the guise of protecting a tree in India is just another distraction from what our own government did via “Fast and Furious.
     
  14. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    Gibson Guitar Told by Obama Regime Not to Use American Labor
    When the boot of Obama’s Big Government came crashing down on the neck of Gibson Guitar for backing the wrong horse politically, it at least helped demonstrate the earnestness of President Downgrade’s repeatedly asserted devotion to American jobs:
    The federal government seized wood, guitars and electronic records from Gibson’s Nashville warehouses in 2009 and again last week. According to [Gibson Guitar CEO Henry] Juszkiewicz, that’s when the Feds made an unusual request from the American manufacturer.
    On KMJ airwaves, Juszkiewicz revealed that representatives of the US government told Gibson that their legal issues would “disappear” if they used Madagascar labor instead of American labor.
    Gibson Guitar wouldn’t be the first company to learn that thanks to our grotesquely bloated rogue government, using American labor is not always feasible.
    Too bad the leftist toadies that pass for journalists these days are unlikely to dig into what kind of favors are being done for Obama in Madagascar.

    Gibson employs 1200 workers.
     
  15. Sleeve_meet_Heart

    Sleeve_meet_Heart making the unreadable unreadabler

    Unlike all of the biased, useless articles being posted ....here is the meat and potatos

    "As for last week's raid, the government said it had evidence that Indian ebony was "fraudulently" labeled in an attempt to evade an Indian ban on exports of unfinished wood.

    "It is very possible that a broker made the mistake in filling out a form," Mr. Juszkiewicz said. Gibson says the ebony was partially finished for use as fingerboards and that Indian officials have endorsed such exports as legal. A spokesman for India's commerce ministry had no immediate comment."


    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903895904576542942027859286.html

    Wait a sec...everyone is getting riled up about too much gov't and etc...but why is it that Juszkiewicz is backtracking and claiming a "mistake' may have happened? why are they in a civil court trying to take back claimed goods now, is the product that valuable or is Gibson simply trying to weaken the case against them?

    Seems shady to me despite the slanted efforts of social media. Maybe Gibson should do as others have claimed and use a little more due dilligance and research into their goods/ exports purchased.
     
  16. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Sleeve,

    It may well be true that the law was broken by suppliers to Gibson and it is true that a similar event happened a couple of years ago in which Gibson is currently in court sueing to get back it's property. However, this is equally true. Gibson based on the 2009' raid was charged with no crime, no arrests were made, no fines levied, no day in court and yet the federal gov't came in and seized property for which at this point no crime is charged, maybe even alleged.

    Now whether Gibson is innocent or not, this can be debated but from the standpoint of a legal precedence to the broader population, the gov't under color of law can seize property on the grounds a crime is alleged but no crime is ever charged? How do we square this with the 4th amendment or does that even matter any more? I allege you might have been looking at child porn so on those grounds I seize your computer, never give it back nor do I ever charge you with any crime. Are we not all at risk with such draconian, star chamber law enforcement? Was it not similar conditions that prompted a group of radicals to form cells that came to work and organize together to overthrow such political powers and they felt in important enough to put down something called the 4th amendment in the hopes that it wouldn't happen again? Seems they overlooked some details it would appear!
    :wink2:

    But the article you posted raises an even greater and deeper question. From the article:

    As in the previous case, no charges have been filed meaning no charges existed at the time of the raid but there is an allegation that Gibson may have violated an Indian Export Law. So the US Federal State is now the enforcement arm of a foreign nationstate? In the realm of legal precedence, think about that.

    This has also had a chilling effect on owners of various instruments including Les Paul owners but it's not just them either as other companies use both Ebony and Rosewood too. As a drummer, you know many kits have their shells made of maple (not an effected would, yet!) but this would still not exclude a larger threat to percussionists. Marimba's (a percussion instrument) most often have Rosewood keys so they could easily be effected depending on how far they want to go. A Friday night football game halftime show might change as so many marching bands could lose a major instrument out of their pit. There have been cases where some instruments of private owners during the course of transport have had instruments seized, even with paperwork filed to grandfather in vintage instruments. There is a lot of uncertainty but just unclear at the moment if it's warranted or not.

    Whether Gibson here is knowingly guilty or just a case of stupidity for not changing suppliers after the 2009' raid is open for debate but IMO far larger questions are at hand with the legal precedence and ramifications being most important to consider.

    jmo

    BTW: The more I read about this case, the more I think it's about labor and not about green which is part of my point in earlier posts.
     
  17. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    It is a violation of India's law to ship out unfinished wood.
    So our gov't has seized Gibson supplies for the sake of Indian workers.
    Now other buyers of the same wood have never been contacted by any of our gov't raiding parties, why ?
    Because the already donate funds to the DNC .
     
  18. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

    From what NOR reported, Gibson knew exactly what they were doing and floated e-mails and memos about it that the government now has in evidence. These were the" mistakes" that were made.
     
  19. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

  20. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member