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trickpony1
Guest
Robonono,
Perhaps you missed my point......
Perhaps you missed my point......
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ok2bclever
Guest
From the gist of an email where Van Skillman reportedly discussed this issue it sounds like this wage freeze/pension bailout issue is more of an issue here rather than at the APWA.
Mr Skillman's letter stated this may not be necessary, that the company (ours and others) are responsible for the positions they are in and hence have the brunt of the responsibility to fix the problem and currently the law feels that way as well.
So it is far more likely that before this issue has any chance of becoming a reality we will be able to see how successful UPS is in getting off the hook through lobbying and legistlative changes.
Mr Skillman's letter stated this may not be necessary, that the company (ours and others) are responsible for the positions they are in and hence have the brunt of the responsibility to fix the problem and currently the law feels that way as well.
So it is far more likely that before this issue has any chance of becoming a reality we will be able to see how successful UPS is in getting off the hook through lobbying and legistlative changes.
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ezrider
Guest
<font color="0000ff">...my understanding is this is all pure hypothetical conjecture at this point, an exercise in "what if".</font>
Indeed true. With healthcare costs rising at near double digits per-year in percentage, the volume would have to grow at a rate at God-only-knows-what to offset that black hole. By the time 2008 arrives it wouldn't surprise me if the company wants not only a wage freeze but a slash in them altogether regardless of the who the bargaining agent will be.
And let's be realistic about it. There's never going to be any $7000.00 per-month pension ever collected by any retired hourly. The APWA would have to be nuts to ever promise that and they need to be very careful of not using that figure as an advertisement to entice a vote to throw the IBT out. We all saw the result of what happened the last two rounds of negotiations where the IBT claimed how they were fighting to protect our pensions. Unless it was thier goal to protect them from us, it was a promise they couldn't keep. APWA needs to be honest and tell ALL employess that there's no miracle cure, and there's a very strong to very likely case that EVERYBODY will have to absorb some short-term pain for long term gain.
It's time to face up to the truth that we had a chance to get free of this mess and we passed on it. Don't think the company doesn't remind a driver of that everyday with things like 6-seconds-per-pkg time allowance slash and 10% of routes whacked out of the building once PAS/EDD gets jammed into it like a square peg in a round hole. Any driver who hasn't had the pleasure of being dealt that one-two hit is really in for a reality check because it's around the corner and you can be dead certain that management will make sure that it's going to be painful. These are the measures they take when they get fed up trying to explain that they are tired and p*ssed off that they had to throw UPS money down the toilet for years in pension funds that basically penalize successful companies while rewarding the retirees of failed companies.
The reality is that as long as the company has to pay more than just it's own employees retirement, then they are going to attempt to wring that money back out of the employees that are most responsible for putting them in that position to begin with and that's the drivers. At some point we are going to have to take accountability for what we allowed IBT to do in '97. APWA might be a step in the right direction, but pie-in-the-sky dreams only make waking up to the reality that much more of a nightmare. The truth no doubt hurts, but the lies that IBT handed the rank and file drivers with what they thought was a few years to go until retirement sure hurt much worse.
Indeed true. With healthcare costs rising at near double digits per-year in percentage, the volume would have to grow at a rate at God-only-knows-what to offset that black hole. By the time 2008 arrives it wouldn't surprise me if the company wants not only a wage freeze but a slash in them altogether regardless of the who the bargaining agent will be.
And let's be realistic about it. There's never going to be any $7000.00 per-month pension ever collected by any retired hourly. The APWA would have to be nuts to ever promise that and they need to be very careful of not using that figure as an advertisement to entice a vote to throw the IBT out. We all saw the result of what happened the last two rounds of negotiations where the IBT claimed how they were fighting to protect our pensions. Unless it was thier goal to protect them from us, it was a promise they couldn't keep. APWA needs to be honest and tell ALL employess that there's no miracle cure, and there's a very strong to very likely case that EVERYBODY will have to absorb some short-term pain for long term gain.
It's time to face up to the truth that we had a chance to get free of this mess and we passed on it. Don't think the company doesn't remind a driver of that everyday with things like 6-seconds-per-pkg time allowance slash and 10% of routes whacked out of the building once PAS/EDD gets jammed into it like a square peg in a round hole. Any driver who hasn't had the pleasure of being dealt that one-two hit is really in for a reality check because it's around the corner and you can be dead certain that management will make sure that it's going to be painful. These are the measures they take when they get fed up trying to explain that they are tired and p*ssed off that they had to throw UPS money down the toilet for years in pension funds that basically penalize successful companies while rewarding the retirees of failed companies.
The reality is that as long as the company has to pay more than just it's own employees retirement, then they are going to attempt to wring that money back out of the employees that are most responsible for putting them in that position to begin with and that's the drivers. At some point we are going to have to take accountability for what we allowed IBT to do in '97. APWA might be a step in the right direction, but pie-in-the-sky dreams only make waking up to the reality that much more of a nightmare. The truth no doubt hurts, but the lies that IBT handed the rank and file drivers with what they thought was a few years to go until retirement sure hurt much worse.
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ups79
Guest
ok2b:I don't believe I said he could not post here, what I said was that I chose to ignore him.
Doesn't part-timers receive their pensions from the company and not from the union? I am sure they could care less. OK2B-time to go back to your clerking job, isn't it?
Doesn't part-timers receive their pensions from the company and not from the union? I am sure they could care less. OK2B-time to go back to your clerking job, isn't it?
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ok2bclever
Guest
Sorry, much as you would like to you cannot stop me from posting either, but dream on.
Yes, part-timers get their pension from UPS and UPS downgraded their retirement medical immediately with ours.
So the part-timers that are concerned with pension stuff now know, if they didn't suspect before, exactly how far they can trust the company.
Yes, part-timers get their pension from UPS and UPS downgraded their retirement medical immediately with ours.
So the part-timers that are concerned with pension stuff now know, if they didn't suspect before, exactly how far they can trust the company.
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teddyr
Guest
Unless supply chain/logistics svcs and Int. business start to gain at a phenomenal rate, sometime down the road we will have to give something back to the Co. whether it be a wage freeze or start paying something for our benefits. We have been spoiled too long. A free pension is a luxury private sector employees rarely see. The benefits we have as UPS employees are envied by all others. We need to protect what we have even if it means droping our egos come contract time. Educating our fellow ignorant employees on the multi-employer pension is crucial. We need to get the word out.
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sawman
Guest
Rising health care cost or not, the money is being paid in to cover the health care and pension, but the ones of us in multi-employer funds are not getting it.
The people who are skeptics about this and the $7000.00 pension need to do some research. I was talking a few weeks ago on the teamster.net board with someone in the NY fund, which is a single employer fund. Right now, they are getting 6800 to 7000 a month with 100% health care, including dental and vision. SO if UPS is paying the same thing in for them that they pay for all of us, then we should be getting the same kind of benifits.
The people who are skeptics about this and the $7000.00 pension need to do some research. I was talking a few weeks ago on the teamster.net board with someone in the NY fund, which is a single employer fund. Right now, they are getting 6800 to 7000 a month with 100% health care, including dental and vision. SO if UPS is paying the same thing in for them that they pay for all of us, then we should be getting the same kind of benifits.
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wkmac
Guest
Mr. Skillman is not legally able to bring the pay freeze option to the table at this time because the APWA is not yet our bargaining agent, but believe me, once the APWA is voted in, this issue will rise to the top in a hurry.
No offense Sawman but that dog don't hunt. If they can't discuss a way to pay for a pension system then how can they present an idea of alternative pension plan in the first place ie $7k per month? It's pretty obvious to me that at this point discussing the pay freeze is pointless unless you are trying to give traction to an idea you believe has merit and it just may but the folks leading the APWA effort are not looking in this direction at this time.
If you want to throw out as a hypothetical then say so up front and let's stop playing the game that this idea has a place at this time. Most of us know we are locked into a pretty bad deal regardless who the fault lies with but the question is where we go from here. Rumors and falsehoods although innocent of malice will do nothing but muck up the waters and lead to confusion and distrust. THE IBT can and will use this to drive wedges and then we get no where. As I said earlier at best I see APWA a good thing in that is forces the IBT to walk a straighter line and we all benefit from that.
We need to stick strictly to the facts at hand and not engage in "what if" scenarios unless upfront we say "what if" this and "what if" that and go from there. If APWA moves forward and gains standing we will need to do this but again we need to be upfront and list both pros and cons and then go forward making informed decisions. JMO.
No offense Sawman but that dog don't hunt. If they can't discuss a way to pay for a pension system then how can they present an idea of alternative pension plan in the first place ie $7k per month? It's pretty obvious to me that at this point discussing the pay freeze is pointless unless you are trying to give traction to an idea you believe has merit and it just may but the folks leading the APWA effort are not looking in this direction at this time.
If you want to throw out as a hypothetical then say so up front and let's stop playing the game that this idea has a place at this time. Most of us know we are locked into a pretty bad deal regardless who the fault lies with but the question is where we go from here. Rumors and falsehoods although innocent of malice will do nothing but muck up the waters and lead to confusion and distrust. THE IBT can and will use this to drive wedges and then we get no where. As I said earlier at best I see APWA a good thing in that is forces the IBT to walk a straighter line and we all benefit from that.
We need to stick strictly to the facts at hand and not engage in "what if" scenarios unless upfront we say "what if" this and "what if" that and go from there. If APWA moves forward and gains standing we will need to do this but again we need to be upfront and list both pros and cons and then go forward making informed decisions. JMO.
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wkmac
Guest
I was talking a few weeks ago on the teamster.net board with someone in the NY fund, which is a single employer fund. Right now, they are getting 6800 to 7000 a month with 100% health care, including dental and vision.
If this is true then there is legal language somewhere to lay out the plan and therefore written proof that this really exists not some rumor posted on the net. Find and print the facts sawman, don't tell us what someone said on an internet board. Give hard facts and if this is true it would sell APWA ideas all by itself. I doubt you'd have to say a word. Think about that!
If this is true then there is legal language somewhere to lay out the plan and therefore written proof that this really exists not some rumor posted on the net. Find and print the facts sawman, don't tell us what someone said on an internet board. Give hard facts and if this is true it would sell APWA ideas all by itself. I doubt you'd have to say a word. Think about that!
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sawman
Guest
WK,
You are right, the APWA leaders are not pursueing this option right now, but it is being descussed among members and when the APWA is certified as our bargaining agents, you can bet that we will press them to present this option to the company.
Also you are right, that there must be a paper trail to what the employee in NY stated are recieving. Getting that is the problem, just like the machanics in Richmond VA, that are getting 5700 and have a 25 year any age retirement, but they have balked at repeated requested for info on there pension plan. These people do not want the rest of us to know what they get for fear that it might hurt there retirement plan if this info gets out. Also the Nat. Pension Improvement Committee, posted on there site that the mechanics in Oregon state recieve 7000 a month retirement.
There are pockets all over that are recieving these types of retirements, but getting our hands on the documentation is not easy because they try and keep these thing quiet. If you have any ideas on how to get these documents feel free to make suggestions.
You are right, the APWA leaders are not pursueing this option right now, but it is being descussed among members and when the APWA is certified as our bargaining agents, you can bet that we will press them to present this option to the company.
Also you are right, that there must be a paper trail to what the employee in NY stated are recieving. Getting that is the problem, just like the machanics in Richmond VA, that are getting 5700 and have a 25 year any age retirement, but they have balked at repeated requested for info on there pension plan. These people do not want the rest of us to know what they get for fear that it might hurt there retirement plan if this info gets out. Also the Nat. Pension Improvement Committee, posted on there site that the mechanics in Oregon state recieve 7000 a month retirement.
There are pockets all over that are recieving these types of retirements, but getting our hands on the documentation is not easy because they try and keep these thing quiet. If you have any ideas on how to get these documents feel free to make suggestions.
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wkmac
Guest
I would seek out gov't agencies which have jurisdiction over these various plans. I would think these agencies would require by law that the rules of the plan be on file and that certain intervals of financial statements also be made. Generally speaking documents of a gov't agency are accessible to the public to some degree and via this avenue you may gain access to the data you need.
I will say this for those folks covered under plans that are in good shape and that is why should they give up or sacrifice to save those of us who happen to be in a bad deal. We sit here and complain about having to pay for others when their companies no longer exist and we would be huge hypocrits to now demand some of our own to give up what they and their families need just to better feather our beds. I won't do that. If we are going to collaspe everything into one big plan then APWA needs to figure out how to better benefit them as well above what they have now. On the flipside I'll throw this out to the few who may be in a good situation and this is very iffy but it could happen but if enough of the current IBT UPS membership bolt from the IBT and vote to go under the APWA then you could find yourself a very small minority within the overall total of UPS union covered employees. Come contract time depending on the size you may have a hard time getting much to keep yourself going. That's not a probable at all, just a potential and at this point a very longshot but it is something to think about.
Just as you have the right to stay with what you have we also have the right to also explore what other options are available. Again, I see APWA not so much as a real threat to replace the IBT but rather as a weapon to force the leadership to take UPSers more serious and to do a better job of stewardship on our behalf. This competition although they (IBT) won't like it IMO will be a good thing especially if the Fed. gov't grants organizing status to APWA. You can bet the IBT politicos are working OT in Washington to stop that! JMO.
I will say this for those folks covered under plans that are in good shape and that is why should they give up or sacrifice to save those of us who happen to be in a bad deal. We sit here and complain about having to pay for others when their companies no longer exist and we would be huge hypocrits to now demand some of our own to give up what they and their families need just to better feather our beds. I won't do that. If we are going to collaspe everything into one big plan then APWA needs to figure out how to better benefit them as well above what they have now. On the flipside I'll throw this out to the few who may be in a good situation and this is very iffy but it could happen but if enough of the current IBT UPS membership bolt from the IBT and vote to go under the APWA then you could find yourself a very small minority within the overall total of UPS union covered employees. Come contract time depending on the size you may have a hard time getting much to keep yourself going. That's not a probable at all, just a potential and at this point a very longshot but it is something to think about.
Just as you have the right to stay with what you have we also have the right to also explore what other options are available. Again, I see APWA not so much as a real threat to replace the IBT but rather as a weapon to force the leadership to take UPSers more serious and to do a better job of stewardship on our behalf. This competition although they (IBT) won't like it IMO will be a good thing especially if the Fed. gov't grants organizing status to APWA. You can bet the IBT politicos are working OT in Washington to stop that! JMO.
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ups79
Guest
wkmac:your two last posts describe exactly how I have felt since sawman and feeder have appeared to post. Nothing is ever for sure. When questions are asked the common retort is "go to the web site". It appears to me that this man, if so postive about what he is saying, should be able to answer some of the simpliest questions without referring to "go to the website". Ok2bclever: hope I wasnot too hard on sawman.
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sawman
Guest
UPS79,
Let me try and clear something up with you.
I am a member of the APWA, and while I do know the basics of their plan, I am by know means an expert on the subject. I don't know the detailed answers to all of the questions, and by refering you to the web page, I am only trying to help you find your answers by putting you in touch with the experts on the subject. I'm not trying to play games with you. I just don't have all the answers, They do!
WK,
The APWA is not trying to hurt the people that have these good benifits. They are only wanting to use them as examples as to the amount of money that is being paid in by our company and what that amount of money should be affording all of us in terms of benifits.
If the company is paying enough for these people to injoy these types of benifits, then they are paying enough for all of us to enjoy them, but we aren't. Now it's time for us to change the way things are done so that we all get what is being paid in for us.
Let me try and clear something up with you.
I am a member of the APWA, and while I do know the basics of their plan, I am by know means an expert on the subject. I don't know the detailed answers to all of the questions, and by refering you to the web page, I am only trying to help you find your answers by putting you in touch with the experts on the subject. I'm not trying to play games with you. I just don't have all the answers, They do!
WK,
The APWA is not trying to hurt the people that have these good benifits. They are only wanting to use them as examples as to the amount of money that is being paid in by our company and what that amount of money should be affording all of us in terms of benifits.
If the company is paying enough for these people to injoy these types of benifits, then they are paying enough for all of us to enjoy them, but we aren't. Now it's time for us to change the way things are done so that we all get what is being paid in for us.
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ok2bclever
Guest
ups79, well, I am gonna certify it as acceptable this time, but just be careful.
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ups79
Guest
ok2b:really I want to thank you. Sure glad to know that you ok'd my post. Also I give thanks to the Lord that you are watching me as this really makes my family and I feel secure.
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ezrider
Guest
I will say this for those folks covered under plans that are in good shape and that is why should they give up or sacrifice to save those of us who happen to be in a bad deal. We sit here and complain about having to pay for others when their companies no longer exist and we would be huge hypocrits to now demand some of our own to give up what they and their families need just to better feather our beds.
Wkmac I don't think it's quite that simple. The driver that just happens to be in a "healthy" fund wouldn't have it to begin with if there hadn't been drivers wearing the same uniform all across the country working day in and day out to keep the business going in order to provide the money to put towards any plan to start with. The guy wearing the same uniform as you and I is supposed to be on the same team. How long do you think half of the guys on the team that face the crummy future of Central States and it's ugly sisters are going to keep sacrificing for the company that can't guarantee that one guy doing the same job in one state will get a reasonable retirement like the guy in another state? If the disparity between the have and the have-nots starts growing bigger and enough drivers stuck in the failing plans get fed up having to work 10 years longer than a guy doing the same job with the same company one state away they aren't going to strive to make the difference for the customers any longer. The have-nots will deem it as an unnecessary "sacrifice" since thier odds having a retirement are so much less than others on the "team".
If that happens, it aint gonna matter in 10 years who was lucky enough not to fall into CS or not because there won't be any customers willing to waste thier money on the 50-50 odds that service will be given. The company knows it and I bet they feared that scenario back in '97. BROTHERHOOD? What a joke. If that's the kind of "I got mine and the hell with anybody else" attitude my dues money is going for, then it's WAY PAST TIME to even the playing field.
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ok2bclever
Guest
ups79, gosh, you are very welcome, I do what I can, we all do.
PS - Just keep locking those doors at night and scan your walk path.
PS - Just keep locking those doors at night and scan your walk path.
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speeddemon
Guest
Damn straight EZRider
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wkmac
Guest
ez and speed,
From folks like UPS79's perspective it is just that simple. I'm in CS and 7 years away from the good life when the walls came crashing down so I'm not happy either but my point is that unless we come up with a solution that benefits all we will at best end up with a fractured union structure within UPS where part of the country "could" be covered by something like APWA and another part covered by IBT. Let's not forget the Machinist Union as I understand some small areas have their Auto and PE mechanics covered by them. Remember under the labor law that governs us we can de-certify and certify unions by facility and not as one large company like what FedEx is governed under. A fracture with multiple unions could breakdown into utter chaos especially if the various unions have ill feeling towards one another. Just look at the chaos from all the fractured pension funds that cover UPSers is a good example and then throw in the various regional supplemental contracts. And this under one union! You can also bet the IBT won't be inclined to work with any upstart union if they do get their foot in the door and I'm sure the same could be true on the other foot as these former IBT members will have ill feeling having left.
You are right in some respect about one driver maybe benefitting from the work and efforts of others but consider this before you take that approach. When any company including UPS creates a job it has a set worth or value and in our case it's spelled out by contract. Within that value UPS has to include the cost of health and welfare, matching Social Security along with the hourly wage. All of these are specifically earned as each of us perform our jobs which means every week the money placed in health and welfare, etc. is your money. You earned it. UPS is not out of the generousity of heart giving you that money. It's plain and simple your's for the work you did and "NOT" the work of anyone else. Now that being the case from my perspective gives new light to the argument you made that it was the efforts of others that gave them the better pension at least over a long period of time. Had this person come into the plan later in life not having worked say the years others of a younger age did but qualified for retire specially on having reached a certain birthday then you might have an argument but I would think that the older age is factored in like any other annuity instrument and just maybe this argument really has no bearing but I honestly don't know. I just suspect. It also may be a meritless argument for any of us since our involvements with the various pension funds have been for some time now.
There is one possible example that makes what you say true and that is the company hires a 55 year old PTer and let's say at 58 he/she becomes a FT driver covered under CS and works to age 70. Yeah I know, I'm damn impressed too LOL! Anyway they retire and at that point your argument just may have soem merit but again I'm not sure.
You can also take that same logic you used and say that before UPS in various areas joined the Teamsters Multi-pension funds that a number of employees from other companies help build up those funds and that when we joined in we reaped the benefits of their efforts and hard work. I know, I didn't like the taste that one left in my mouth either but it's a fact we'll have to face using your logic and I'll bet if this effort grows it'll be one you'll hear thrown at ya so better prepare for it. Also the evidence of trouble brewing in CS and others have been there all along but how many of us including myself got hung up in our own lives and unwilling to take the time a look and question what was happening? Same reason our locals and international is in turmoil and distant from the membership. How any of us including myself took the time to look hard at the demographics of the fund, current and future funding and just what kind of impact the pension increase as a result of the events of 97' would have on the future of the fund? Ever consider for a moment that just maybe our own lack of oversight may have us just where we are now? I'll admit these aren't fun questions to ask ourselves but we'd sure better because if we are able to come out of this somehow and get back to where we were then if we go back to sleep it will happen again.
Lastly, if CS would return to the same conditions it was prior to the cutbacks would any of us be entertaining the idea of a new pension that paid $7k per month or would we be like UPS79 and trying with all our might to protect what we have. That is another important question we have to ask ourselves and I'd love to visit some alternate universe where these conditions exist just to see what things would look like.
ez and speed as Bill Clinton use to say "I feel your pain" because I'm in CS too so I understand the desire to get whatever we can but we've got to look at the negative aspects or this thing could blow up in our faces as we gain one thing but lose on a larger scale. Also you can bet these negatives will be thrown our way if this goes forward and we'd better face them now among family because those folks out there aren't our family no matter what they say. They are our competitors period! Their further existence with their employment may very well depend on us losing business specifically to them. We have to look at all these facts and conditions as we move forward whether they be pro or con. We need to weed this thing out now as best we can before it moves further because you can bet we ain't seen nothing yet. That's all I'm saying.
UPS79,
I had to ask myself those questions and I didn't like the results I had to give in many cases. However don't make the same mistake many of us made and just sit back. Learn from us and keep an eagle eye on your trustees, the union and the company and also make sure you have alternative methods to fund your retirement. I'm so thankful I didn't listen to one co-worker years ago and not take part in the 401k as it could really end up now being my bread and butter instead of the play fund I thought it would be. As an aside to all this I could live with the current CS deal if they would do just one thing and that is remove all work restrictions for retirees. I would like to retire from what I'm doing at 55 if not sooner not to just sit back and do nothing but to take my skills and knowledge and pursue of areas of interests where the main purpose is not so much the money itself. Maybe under the right conditions work long enough to qualify for another pension. I think that if CS and the IBT did that a lot of the vocal objections to the current situation would quieten down but that's JMO.
Take care folks and let's be willing to look at all aspects of this because at the end of the day we will only be better and the solution we come too just may end up being worth all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Hey ez and speed, see ya in the soupline but let's wear our "Proud to be a CS retiree" T-Shirts! LMAO!!!!
From folks like UPS79's perspective it is just that simple. I'm in CS and 7 years away from the good life when the walls came crashing down so I'm not happy either but my point is that unless we come up with a solution that benefits all we will at best end up with a fractured union structure within UPS where part of the country "could" be covered by something like APWA and another part covered by IBT. Let's not forget the Machinist Union as I understand some small areas have their Auto and PE mechanics covered by them. Remember under the labor law that governs us we can de-certify and certify unions by facility and not as one large company like what FedEx is governed under. A fracture with multiple unions could breakdown into utter chaos especially if the various unions have ill feeling towards one another. Just look at the chaos from all the fractured pension funds that cover UPSers is a good example and then throw in the various regional supplemental contracts. And this under one union! You can also bet the IBT won't be inclined to work with any upstart union if they do get their foot in the door and I'm sure the same could be true on the other foot as these former IBT members will have ill feeling having left.
You are right in some respect about one driver maybe benefitting from the work and efforts of others but consider this before you take that approach. When any company including UPS creates a job it has a set worth or value and in our case it's spelled out by contract. Within that value UPS has to include the cost of health and welfare, matching Social Security along with the hourly wage. All of these are specifically earned as each of us perform our jobs which means every week the money placed in health and welfare, etc. is your money. You earned it. UPS is not out of the generousity of heart giving you that money. It's plain and simple your's for the work you did and "NOT" the work of anyone else. Now that being the case from my perspective gives new light to the argument you made that it was the efforts of others that gave them the better pension at least over a long period of time. Had this person come into the plan later in life not having worked say the years others of a younger age did but qualified for retire specially on having reached a certain birthday then you might have an argument but I would think that the older age is factored in like any other annuity instrument and just maybe this argument really has no bearing but I honestly don't know. I just suspect. It also may be a meritless argument for any of us since our involvements with the various pension funds have been for some time now.
There is one possible example that makes what you say true and that is the company hires a 55 year old PTer and let's say at 58 he/she becomes a FT driver covered under CS and works to age 70. Yeah I know, I'm damn impressed too LOL! Anyway they retire and at that point your argument just may have soem merit but again I'm not sure.
You can also take that same logic you used and say that before UPS in various areas joined the Teamsters Multi-pension funds that a number of employees from other companies help build up those funds and that when we joined in we reaped the benefits of their efforts and hard work. I know, I didn't like the taste that one left in my mouth either but it's a fact we'll have to face using your logic and I'll bet if this effort grows it'll be one you'll hear thrown at ya so better prepare for it. Also the evidence of trouble brewing in CS and others have been there all along but how many of us including myself got hung up in our own lives and unwilling to take the time a look and question what was happening? Same reason our locals and international is in turmoil and distant from the membership. How any of us including myself took the time to look hard at the demographics of the fund, current and future funding and just what kind of impact the pension increase as a result of the events of 97' would have on the future of the fund? Ever consider for a moment that just maybe our own lack of oversight may have us just where we are now? I'll admit these aren't fun questions to ask ourselves but we'd sure better because if we are able to come out of this somehow and get back to where we were then if we go back to sleep it will happen again.
Lastly, if CS would return to the same conditions it was prior to the cutbacks would any of us be entertaining the idea of a new pension that paid $7k per month or would we be like UPS79 and trying with all our might to protect what we have. That is another important question we have to ask ourselves and I'd love to visit some alternate universe where these conditions exist just to see what things would look like.
ez and speed as Bill Clinton use to say "I feel your pain" because I'm in CS too so I understand the desire to get whatever we can but we've got to look at the negative aspects or this thing could blow up in our faces as we gain one thing but lose on a larger scale. Also you can bet these negatives will be thrown our way if this goes forward and we'd better face them now among family because those folks out there aren't our family no matter what they say. They are our competitors period! Their further existence with their employment may very well depend on us losing business specifically to them. We have to look at all these facts and conditions as we move forward whether they be pro or con. We need to weed this thing out now as best we can before it moves further because you can bet we ain't seen nothing yet. That's all I'm saying.
UPS79,
I had to ask myself those questions and I didn't like the results I had to give in many cases. However don't make the same mistake many of us made and just sit back. Learn from us and keep an eagle eye on your trustees, the union and the company and also make sure you have alternative methods to fund your retirement. I'm so thankful I didn't listen to one co-worker years ago and not take part in the 401k as it could really end up now being my bread and butter instead of the play fund I thought it would be. As an aside to all this I could live with the current CS deal if they would do just one thing and that is remove all work restrictions for retirees. I would like to retire from what I'm doing at 55 if not sooner not to just sit back and do nothing but to take my skills and knowledge and pursue of areas of interests where the main purpose is not so much the money itself. Maybe under the right conditions work long enough to qualify for another pension. I think that if CS and the IBT did that a lot of the vocal objections to the current situation would quieten down but that's JMO.
Take care folks and let's be willing to look at all aspects of this because at the end of the day we will only be better and the solution we come too just may end up being worth all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Hey ez and speed, see ya in the soupline but let's wear our "Proud to be a CS retiree" T-Shirts! LMAO!!!!
S
sawman
Guest
WKmac,
I agree with you for the most part, BUT The argument that when we joined these multi-employer plans, that the rest carried us for a while, does not hold water.
Think about this: when we joined UPS paid into these plans for 30 years before a single UPser drew a dime out. SO we paid our way right from day one.
I agree with you for the most part, BUT The argument that when we joined these multi-employer plans, that the rest carried us for a while, does not hold water.
Think about this: when we joined UPS paid into these plans for 30 years before a single UPser drew a dime out. SO we paid our way right from day one.
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