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Has IBT/CS been a wise steward of our pension?
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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 52871"><p>ez and speed, </p><p>From folks like UPS79's perspective it is just that simple. I'm in CS and 7 years away from the good life when the walls came crashing down so I'm not happy either but my point is that unless we come up with a solution that benefits all we will at best end up with a fractured union structure within UPS where part of the country "could" be covered by something like APWA and another part covered by IBT. Let's not forget the Machinist Union as I understand some small areas have their Auto and PE mechanics covered by them. Remember under the labor law that governs us we can de-certify and certify unions by facility and not as one large company like what FedEx is governed under. A fracture with multiple unions could breakdown into utter chaos especially if the various unions have ill feeling towards one another. Just look at the chaos from all the fractured pension funds that cover UPSers is a good example and then throw in the various regional supplemental contracts. And this under one union! You can also bet the IBT won't be inclined to work with any upstart union if they do get their foot in the door and I'm sure the same could be true on the other foot as these former IBT members will have ill feeling having left. </p><p> </p><p>You are right in some respect about one driver maybe benefitting from the work and efforts of others but consider this before you take that approach. When any company including UPS creates a job it has a set worth or value and in our case it's spelled out by contract. Within that value UPS has to include the cost of health and welfare, matching Social Security along with the hourly wage. All of these are specifically earned as each of us perform our jobs which means every week the money placed in health and welfare, etc. is your money. You earned it. UPS is not out of the generousity of heart giving you that money. It's plain and simple your's for the work you did and "NOT" the work of anyone else. Now that being the case from my perspective gives new light to the argument you made that it was the efforts of others that gave them the better pension at least over a long period of time. Had this person come into the plan later in life not having worked say the years others of a younger age did but qualified for retire specially on having reached a certain birthday then you might have an argument but I would think that the older age is factored in like any other annuity instrument and just maybe this argument really has no bearing but I honestly don't know. I just suspect. It also may be a meritless argument for any of us since our involvements with the various pension funds have been for some time now. </p><p> </p><p>There is one possible example that makes what you say true and that is the company hires a 55 year old PTer and let's say at 58 he/she becomes a FT driver covered under CS and works to age 70. Yeah I know, I'm damn impressed too LOL! Anyway they retire and at that point your argument just may have soem merit but again I'm not sure. </p><p> </p><p>You can also take that same logic you used and say that before UPS in various areas joined the Teamsters Multi-pension funds that a number of employees from other companies help build up those funds and that when we joined in we reaped the benefits of their efforts and hard work. I know, I didn't like the taste that one left in my mouth either but it's a fact we'll have to face using your logic and I'll bet if this effort grows it'll be one you'll hear thrown at ya so better prepare for it. Also the evidence of trouble brewing in CS and others have been there all along but how many of us including myself got hung up in our own lives and unwilling to take the time a look and question what was happening? Same reason our locals and international is in turmoil and distant from the membership. How any of us including myself took the time to look hard at the demographics of the fund, current and future funding and just what kind of impact the pension increase as a result of the events of 97' would have on the future of the fund? Ever consider for a moment that just maybe our own lack of oversight may have us just where we are now? I'll admit these aren't fun questions to ask ourselves but we'd sure better because if we are able to come out of this somehow and get back to where we were then if we go back to sleep it will happen again. </p><p> </p><p>Lastly, if CS would return to the same conditions it was prior to the cutbacks would any of us be entertaining the idea of a new pension that paid $7k per month or would we be like UPS79 and trying with all our might to protect what we have. That is another important question we have to ask ourselves and I'd love to visit some alternate universe where these conditions exist just to see what things would look like. </p><p> </p><p>ez and speed as Bill Clinton use to say "I feel your pain" because I'm in CS too so I understand the desire to get whatever we can but we've got to look at the negative aspects or this thing could blow up in our faces as we gain one thing but lose on a larger scale. Also you can bet these negatives will be thrown our way if this goes forward and we'd better face them now among family because those folks out there aren't our family no matter what they say. They are our competitors period! Their further existence with their employment may very well depend on us losing business specifically to them. We have to look at all these facts and conditions as we move forward whether they be pro or con. We need to weed this thing out now as best we can before it moves further because you can bet we ain't seen nothing yet. That's all I'm saying. </p><p> </p><p>UPS79, </p><p>I had to ask myself those questions and I didn't like the results I had to give in many cases. However don't make the same mistake many of us made and just sit back. Learn from us and keep an eagle eye on your trustees, the union and the company and also make sure you have alternative methods to fund your retirement. I'm so thankful I didn't listen to one co-worker years ago and not take part in the 401k as it could really end up now being my bread and butter instead of the play fund I thought it would be. As an aside to all this I could live with the current CS deal if they would do just one thing and that is remove all work restrictions for retirees. I would like to retire from what I'm doing at 55 if not sooner not to just sit back and do nothing but to take my skills and knowledge and pursue of areas of interests where the main purpose is not so much the money itself. Maybe under the right conditions work long enough to qualify for another pension. I think that if CS and the IBT did that a lot of the vocal objections to the current situation would quieten down but that's JMO. </p><p> </p><p>Take care folks and let's be willing to look at all aspects of this because at the end of the day we will only be better and the solution we come too just may end up being worth all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Hey ez and speed, see ya in the soupline but let's wear our "Proud to be a CS retiree" T-Shirts! LMAO!!!!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 52871"] ez and speed, From folks like UPS79's perspective it is just that simple. I'm in CS and 7 years away from the good life when the walls came crashing down so I'm not happy either but my point is that unless we come up with a solution that benefits all we will at best end up with a fractured union structure within UPS where part of the country "could" be covered by something like APWA and another part covered by IBT. Let's not forget the Machinist Union as I understand some small areas have their Auto and PE mechanics covered by them. Remember under the labor law that governs us we can de-certify and certify unions by facility and not as one large company like what FedEx is governed under. A fracture with multiple unions could breakdown into utter chaos especially if the various unions have ill feeling towards one another. Just look at the chaos from all the fractured pension funds that cover UPSers is a good example and then throw in the various regional supplemental contracts. And this under one union! You can also bet the IBT won't be inclined to work with any upstart union if they do get their foot in the door and I'm sure the same could be true on the other foot as these former IBT members will have ill feeling having left. You are right in some respect about one driver maybe benefitting from the work and efforts of others but consider this before you take that approach. When any company including UPS creates a job it has a set worth or value and in our case it's spelled out by contract. Within that value UPS has to include the cost of health and welfare, matching Social Security along with the hourly wage. All of these are specifically earned as each of us perform our jobs which means every week the money placed in health and welfare, etc. is your money. You earned it. UPS is not out of the generousity of heart giving you that money. It's plain and simple your's for the work you did and "NOT" the work of anyone else. Now that being the case from my perspective gives new light to the argument you made that it was the efforts of others that gave them the better pension at least over a long period of time. Had this person come into the plan later in life not having worked say the years others of a younger age did but qualified for retire specially on having reached a certain birthday then you might have an argument but I would think that the older age is factored in like any other annuity instrument and just maybe this argument really has no bearing but I honestly don't know. I just suspect. It also may be a meritless argument for any of us since our involvements with the various pension funds have been for some time now. There is one possible example that makes what you say true and that is the company hires a 55 year old PTer and let's say at 58 he/she becomes a FT driver covered under CS and works to age 70. Yeah I know, I'm damn impressed too LOL! Anyway they retire and at that point your argument just may have soem merit but again I'm not sure. You can also take that same logic you used and say that before UPS in various areas joined the Teamsters Multi-pension funds that a number of employees from other companies help build up those funds and that when we joined in we reaped the benefits of their efforts and hard work. I know, I didn't like the taste that one left in my mouth either but it's a fact we'll have to face using your logic and I'll bet if this effort grows it'll be one you'll hear thrown at ya so better prepare for it. Also the evidence of trouble brewing in CS and others have been there all along but how many of us including myself got hung up in our own lives and unwilling to take the time a look and question what was happening? Same reason our locals and international is in turmoil and distant from the membership. How any of us including myself took the time to look hard at the demographics of the fund, current and future funding and just what kind of impact the pension increase as a result of the events of 97' would have on the future of the fund? Ever consider for a moment that just maybe our own lack of oversight may have us just where we are now? I'll admit these aren't fun questions to ask ourselves but we'd sure better because if we are able to come out of this somehow and get back to where we were then if we go back to sleep it will happen again. Lastly, if CS would return to the same conditions it was prior to the cutbacks would any of us be entertaining the idea of a new pension that paid $7k per month or would we be like UPS79 and trying with all our might to protect what we have. That is another important question we have to ask ourselves and I'd love to visit some alternate universe where these conditions exist just to see what things would look like. ez and speed as Bill Clinton use to say "I feel your pain" because I'm in CS too so I understand the desire to get whatever we can but we've got to look at the negative aspects or this thing could blow up in our faces as we gain one thing but lose on a larger scale. Also you can bet these negatives will be thrown our way if this goes forward and we'd better face them now among family because those folks out there aren't our family no matter what they say. They are our competitors period! Their further existence with their employment may very well depend on us losing business specifically to them. We have to look at all these facts and conditions as we move forward whether they be pro or con. We need to weed this thing out now as best we can before it moves further because you can bet we ain't seen nothing yet. That's all I'm saying. UPS79, I had to ask myself those questions and I didn't like the results I had to give in many cases. However don't make the same mistake many of us made and just sit back. Learn from us and keep an eagle eye on your trustees, the union and the company and also make sure you have alternative methods to fund your retirement. I'm so thankful I didn't listen to one co-worker years ago and not take part in the 401k as it could really end up now being my bread and butter instead of the play fund I thought it would be. As an aside to all this I could live with the current CS deal if they would do just one thing and that is remove all work restrictions for retirees. I would like to retire from what I'm doing at 55 if not sooner not to just sit back and do nothing but to take my skills and knowledge and pursue of areas of interests where the main purpose is not so much the money itself. Maybe under the right conditions work long enough to qualify for another pension. I think that if CS and the IBT did that a lot of the vocal objections to the current situation would quieten down but that's JMO. Take care folks and let's be willing to look at all aspects of this because at the end of the day we will only be better and the solution we come too just may end up being worth all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Hey ez and speed, see ya in the soupline but let's wear our "Proud to be a CS retiree" T-Shirts! LMAO!!!! [/QUOTE]
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