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UPS Retirement Topics
Has IBT/CS been a wise steward of our pension?
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<blockquote data-quote="ok2bclever" data-source="post: 52998"><p>Sawman, </p><p> </p><p>You know where assume gets you. </p><p> </p><p>I am not comparing apples to oranges and you are digging yourself farther into admitting you don't actually understand the pension structure and are just parroting popular buzzword claims or are purposefully trying to mislead people, which would be extremely disappointing. </p><p> </p><p>I will remain in my belief that that last possibility isn't the case at this time. </p><p> </p><p>Let's just talk about level 18 contributors, you are saying there are company's that are level 18 that were not contributing at a level anywhere near as much as UPS was?! </p><p> </p><p>They <strong>are</strong> paying within cents of all other level 18 contributors as that <strong>is</strong> the defining point to qualifying for level 18. </p><p> </p><p>Or are you saying there was/is some nefarious plan that has let a bunch of now defunct companies contribute at some contribution level lower than level 18, but get credit for level 18? </p><p> </p><p>The point is when a company dies and stops contributing the employees do not get another minute/day/week/year of contribution credit so no one is "carrying" them, least of all UPS, except in the sense that the plan's math (input versus output) was never financially sound, which to me now appears is the case. </p><p> </p><p>The plan is financially not well, but it isn't because "UPS pays soooo much more than others and the rest are not contributing their fair share". </p><p> </p><p>The plan is in trouble apparently because the contribution level is not adequate for the benefit level. </p><p> </p><p>The idea apparently was that investments would ultimately make up the difference knowing that a relatively high ratio of contributing employees to retirees would cover/hide the math descrepancy. </p><p> </p><p>As the baby boomers generation was an easily forecastable upcoming occurance it seems that all responsible parties could have extrapolated what was going to happen, but just didn't hoping it would be someone else's problem before the sht hit the fan. </p><p> </p><p>Failing companies just accelerated the problem, not caused it. </p><p> </p><p>UPS has a legitimate financial concern and current responsibility and liability to the pension situtation that appears will only get worse which is why they are trying to get legistlation to bail <strong>them</strong>, not us out. </p><p> </p><p>Therefore, I agree with Mr Skillman that it is inherently in their interest and their responsibility to buy their way out of the fund if they cannot cheat their way out with legistlation changes. </p><p> </p><p>It is not our responsibility to bail them out. </p><p> </p><p>I would be in favor of considering helping them out incentive wise in future contract negotiations regarding this issue, but your statements of selling this wage freeze boat before the company has even tried to incorporate such concessions into a contract negotiation is exactly the neophyte negotiation ability that I earlier warned I was worried a "rookie" new union negotiating group would make. </p><p> </p><p>I will say Mr Skillman sounds more experienced than that at least. </p><p> </p><p>I do believe the claims that we should be getting 7000 a month from our contributions need to be further substantiated than what I have seen from UPS and the APWA so far. </p><p> </p><p>There are a ton of investment gurus who can show you how you can become a millionaire with them by using "their" formula plugged into past statistics, but somehow the vast majority of them have never made any of their followers millionaires in that same time period. </p><p> </p><p>I am considering that and taking any simple claims forecasting going on by the various factions that will benefit from us jumping ship with a grain of salt. </p><p> </p><p>I agree with wkmac that the medical side of the coin is throwing a huge monkey wrench into the plans of mice and men and at this time that monkey wrench continues to grow bigger with every year at an increasing rate with no solutions apparent at this time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ok2bclever, post: 52998"] Sawman, You know where assume gets you. I am not comparing apples to oranges and you are digging yourself farther into admitting you don't actually understand the pension structure and are just parroting popular buzzword claims or are purposefully trying to mislead people, which would be extremely disappointing. I will remain in my belief that that last possibility isn't the case at this time. Let's just talk about level 18 contributors, you are saying there are company's that are level 18 that were not contributing at a level anywhere near as much as UPS was?! They [b]are[/b] paying within cents of all other level 18 contributors as that [b]is[/b] the defining point to qualifying for level 18. Or are you saying there was/is some nefarious plan that has let a bunch of now defunct companies contribute at some contribution level lower than level 18, but get credit for level 18? The point is when a company dies and stops contributing the employees do not get another minute/day/week/year of contribution credit so no one is "carrying" them, least of all UPS, except in the sense that the plan's math (input versus output) was never financially sound, which to me now appears is the case. The plan is financially not well, but it isn't because "UPS pays soooo much more than others and the rest are not contributing their fair share". The plan is in trouble apparently because the contribution level is not adequate for the benefit level. The idea apparently was that investments would ultimately make up the difference knowing that a relatively high ratio of contributing employees to retirees would cover/hide the math descrepancy. As the baby boomers generation was an easily forecastable upcoming occurance it seems that all responsible parties could have extrapolated what was going to happen, but just didn't hoping it would be someone else's problem before the sht hit the fan. Failing companies just accelerated the problem, not caused it. UPS has a legitimate financial concern and current responsibility and liability to the pension situtation that appears will only get worse which is why they are trying to get legistlation to bail [b]them[/b], not us out. Therefore, I agree with Mr Skillman that it is inherently in their interest and their responsibility to buy their way out of the fund if they cannot cheat their way out with legistlation changes. It is not our responsibility to bail them out. I would be in favor of considering helping them out incentive wise in future contract negotiations regarding this issue, but your statements of selling this wage freeze boat before the company has even tried to incorporate such concessions into a contract negotiation is exactly the neophyte negotiation ability that I earlier warned I was worried a "rookie" new union negotiating group would make. I will say Mr Skillman sounds more experienced than that at least. I do believe the claims that we should be getting 7000 a month from our contributions need to be further substantiated than what I have seen from UPS and the APWA so far. There are a ton of investment gurus who can show you how you can become a millionaire with them by using "their" formula plugged into past statistics, but somehow the vast majority of them have never made any of their followers millionaires in that same time period. I am considering that and taking any simple claims forecasting going on by the various factions that will benefit from us jumping ship with a grain of salt. I agree with wkmac that the medical side of the coin is throwing a huge monkey wrench into the plans of mice and men and at this time that monkey wrench continues to grow bigger with every year at an increasing rate with no solutions apparent at this time. [/QUOTE]
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