How dare UPS layoff workers after profitting $5.8 BILLION in 2010?

Catatonic

Nine Lives
I guess the organization has everyone fooled except for a select few with a pulpit here.

Here are some of the awards UPS has received over the last two years. They are well deserved by all UPSers, both management and hourly (well almost all):

2010
100 Most Valuable Brands — Millward Brown Optimor/BrandZ
Best Companies for Leaders — BusinessWeek
America's Most Reputable Companies — Reputation Institute
Top 20 in Reputation, #1 in Customer Service — Harris Interactive
World's Most Admired Companies — FORTUNE
Top 10 Most Trusted and Recommended Brands in the U.S. (#9) — Millward Brown
American Brand Excellence Award (UPS, Business Services category; The UPS Store, Retail category) — City Business Journals Network
California Air Quality Award in Corporate Leadership (UPS Airlines) — Coalition for Clean Air
World's Most Reputable Companies — Reputation Institute
American Customer Satisfaction Award — University of Michigan's Ross School of Business

2009
Cargo Airline of the Year (UPS Airlines) - Air Transport World
World's Most Respected Companies - Barron's Magazine
Top 50 Trucking Companies - The Journal of Commerce
America' s Best Investor Relations - Institutional Investor
UPS named to World's Most Respected Companies list (#11)
Supply Chain Vendor of the Year - Staples Canada
World's Most Ethical Companies - Ethisphere Institute
American Brand Excellence Award (UPS and The UPS Store) - City Business Journals Network
Supplier of the Year, Top Performance (UPS Brazil) - GE Healthcare


Pretz,
I think that one thing that is telling here is that none of these awards recognizes UPS as a good place to work.
That seems to be the point of the people who are most adamant in their emotional outbursts and wacky belief that UPS is owned by the employees.
We use to get some recognition for being a people oriented company but I can't remember anything in the last few years.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Pretz,
I think that one thing that is telling here is that none of these awards recognizes UPS as a good place to work.
That seems to be the point of the people who are most adamant in their emotional outbursts and wacky belief that UPS is owned by the employees.
We use to get some recognition for being a people oriented company but I can't remember anything in the last few years.

Okay.... I didn't argue that the job is easy, or that UPS is a great place to work. Or that things have not changed.

However, that is a long way from " evil, disgusting, vile company that violates thousands of laws every year "

Look at the responses... All the awards are now biased....

I have no problem discussing two sides of a story. Let me know when others are as well. Hard to do when one ignores facts they do not like.
 

menotyou

bella amicizia
I don't believe UPS is owned by the employees. Since the company was taken public, it has a fiduciary responsibility to its stockholders. It is overseen by the SEC, though.

I use to love my job and my employers. I can not say that anymore. That is what is so sad. This company took its best asset, its employees, and tossed them aside in its grotesque desire for the almighty dollar.
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
Why don't you do the research for yourself and find out..... The names of the organizations are listed on the post....

I guess now you believe that not only is UPS evil, all of the other organizations listed are unethical and incompetent too.

Again, its easy to dismiss facts one does not like.

Speaking for myself, I was not commenting on the evilness of any company, only that the process for giving those awards is self-serving at best. "I'll vote to give your company this award if you vote to give my company that award". I'm saying awards like that, whether the company is great or not, mean very little when it's all members of the boys club giving the awards to each other.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Speaking for myself, I was not commenting on the evilness of any company, only that the process for giving those awards is self-serving at best. "I'll vote to give your company this award if you vote to give my company that award". I'm saying awards like that, whether the company is great or not, mean very little when it's all members of the boys club giving the awards to each other.

Over:

With all due respect, (honestly) I think you may not know how those awards are given.

I do agree that they are somewhat biased. I've been involved in voting on awards and applying for awards on UPS' behalf. Big companies have PR departments that can tell a better story than smaller organizations. Big companies have people that know how to apply for the awards.

However, its not a boys club with Quid Pro Quo behavior. Look at some of the organizations giving the awards. They are reputable firms. Give them a little credit too.

Again, the awards are not evidence that UPS is the best company in the world, but certainly is shows that we don't belong in the group of vermin as has been portrayed.
 

Nimnim

The Nim
Okay.... I didn't argue that the job is easy, or that UPS is a great place to work. Or that things have not changed.

However, that is a long way from " evil, disgusting, vile company that violates thousands of laws every year "

Look at the responses... All the awards are now biased....

I have no problem discussing two sides of a story. Let me know when others are as well. Hard to do when one ignores facts they do not like.

I'd love to discuss this with you if I didn't see and/or agree with what you're saying so I don't have much to really add.

All big companies have employees that do perform their duties in questionable fashions, most get caught and some form of repercussion happens.

Do I think UPS could use their profit better in expanding or fixing the equipment/facilities? Sure.
Do I think UPS could offer better starting wages to attract a better workforce? Certainly.
Do I think UPS is doing a bad job as a company? No, not as a whole, always going to be something to gripe about.
Do I think UPS could focus more on customer service through throwing more drivers out there to get things done in a more efficient way? Of course.
Which do I think UPS looks after more, their employees or shareholders? Shareholders, but that doesn't mean they don't care about the employees. It's more the UPS leadership has shifted to being impersonal which gives the impression they don't care about the employees.
Do I think people commenting in this thread are being too obstinate? Not really, people won't always agree or even see things others are trying to project.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
same across many areas......if you want a star on the walk of fame, you have to nominate yourself or have someone do it....and must pay a $25,000 maintenance fee; that's probably why Trump doesn't have a star.....he invests! Kermit has one.
 

swen

Member
The most dangerous employee is one that reads his or her contract, and files greavances to underline the fact. Not one driver, air driver, loader, unloader, clerk, porter, or trailer driver...but all of us. Dont threaten...do it. And keep doing it. And for God's sake stop GOING HOME WITHOUT PAY!! If you need a day off schedule it...feeling unwell call in sick...show up to work...WORK! Even if there isnt any work...your guaranteed 8 hours. Read the contract...become dangerous...enforce it.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
Over:

With all due respect, (honestly) I think you may not know how those awards are given.

I do agree that they are somewhat biased. I've been involved in voting on awards and applying for awards on UPS' behalf. Big companies have PR departments that can tell a better story than smaller organizations. Big companies have people that know how to apply for the awards.

However, its not a boys club with Quid Pro Quo behavior. Look at some of the organizations giving the awards. They are reputable firms. Give them a little credit too.

Again, the awards are not evidence that UPS is the best company in the world, but certainly is shows that we don't belong in the group of vermin as has been portrayed.
I think it was Churchill?? who once said that a society can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners. I think a company can be and should be judged by how it treats its employees. In that case, if you look over how UPS discards its employees just because they do not move fast enough or use the exact way or method of delivering or handling a package, etc , absolutely, this company mistreats its employees.

My original point was and is this very profittable company was MADE profittable by the blood and sweat of these workers who are then not only NOT rewarded, but they are spit out. This isn't GM! Through the recent hard times, UPS MADE profits. And now after they survive those tough times, they go after long time employees like friend/T clerks.

This is why UPS Corporate is acting in a very unethical and immoral manner. Yes, that behavior, that practice HAS to be exposed to the general public. All the general public basically sees is their UPS driver and a few slick commercials on TV. They have no clue of the decisions made in the cold, dark board room in Atlanta. "Attention, attention must finally be paid!"
 

hubrat

Squeaky Wheel
Wow. If I'm 20 clicks over it's a safe bet that I'll get a pat on the back and a "Great job out there yesterday, Jones!" without even a trace of sarcasm.

Word coming down the pipe here is that all drivers will be expected to run scratch by this fall.
 
Word coming down the pipe here is that all drivers will be expected to run scratch by this fall.

Good luck with that. I'm 200-400 clicks over everyday. They hand me this printout almost every morning with my +3 minute stops claiming its the reason for the overallowed. I'd say on a weekly average basis on that list there is 5-10 stops that are 3 minutes or longer. Yeah, I can really see how 5-10 stops of +3 minutes is really adding up to 2-4hrs overallowed....that's some of that special UPS math that makes its way to the contract tables every few years.

It's also worth noting that I do a very heavy commercial trip with WAY too many house stops on the back end. 99% of my +3 minute stops are at commercial locations with bulk.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
I'd love to discuss this with you if I didn't see and/or agree with what you're saying so I don't have much to really add.

All big companies have employees that do perform their duties in questionable fashions, most get caught and some form of repercussion happens.

Do I think UPS could use their profit better in expanding or fixing the equipment/facilities? Sure.
Do I think UPS could offer better starting wages to attract a better workforce? Certainly.
Do I think UPS is doing a bad job as a company? No, not as a whole, always going to be something to gripe about.
Do I think UPS could focus more on customer service through throwing more drivers out there to get things done in a more efficient way? Of course.
Which do I think UPS looks after more, their employees or shareholders? Shareholders, but that doesn't mean they don't care about the employees. It's more the UPS leadership has shifted to being impersonal which gives the impression they don't care about the employees.
Do I think people commenting in this thread are being too obstinate? Not really, people won't always agree or even see things others are trying to project.

Nimnim,

You always have thoughtful comments, even when we disagree....

Its hard to respond to what you say. I either agree with much of it or its just a matter of opinion...

Equipment and Facilities - UPS spent $1.6B on Capex in 2009. That is down from $2.6B in 2008. I don't know the 2010 number but I'm sure its up from 2009. Generally profits go to shareowners as dividends and also back into the business in CapEx. Was the choice of where to do CapEx spend the wisest? I don't know. I don't know the choices, but the company did spend a lot.

Better starting wages - I think that when the company dropped the part time wages and upped the full time wages, it felt good for a while. Now that is an anchor. I do know that since Casey's day, overall wages and benefits has been looked at as a % of income. I'm pretty sure its remained at between 65% and 69% of revenue for quite some time. (Not 100% sure). My point is that if wages go up for one segment, it will decrease somewhere else.

Other - Even Casey said that we should all be constructively dissatisfied. Nothing wrong with that. Failed organizations are always fat and happy.

Shareowners - UPS has always looked at the bottom line. I don't see a change in that area in my 35 years. In fact, more time seems to be spent now in not performance related areas than when I started.

What has changed?

From my perspective the largest change I have seen is competition and growth. When I started we were growing leaps and bounds. The competitor was the post office and we were the low cost high service provider. When FedEx created the air marketplace, we stayed back for a while then started taking away their packages. I think we got fat and happy with our growth.

Now, we are no longer the low cost provider. We are no longer growing. FedEx grows faster than us and the packages come from us. FedEx ground pays for a driver about 1/2 what we pay (maybe 60%). How many on road supervisors do they have? Zero. None in package, none in feeder. They have a cost advantage.

So to be competitive, we have had to cut costs. I hate it and wish it were not necessary. We used to have more people in operations, HR, etc. More time was spent training operators. I believe they were stronger....

Its not because those savings are now lining the shareowners pockets. They are not. Again, look at the stock price growth in the last 10 years vs FedEx. Those reductions were necessary to stay competitive and ensure that we can continue to pay the wages we do now.

UPS will be offering a low cost SurePost service. It will have packages delivered by the USPS. I'm certain that people will say that this was also a greedy move. On the contrary, it is a very low margin service just to stay competitive.

As I said, I believe the biggest change has been competition.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
Word coming down the pipe here is that all drivers will be expected to run scratch by this fall.
That was the talk around here a couple years ago, we even had a big 'ol building pcm where the DM stood up and told us that we were all gonna be expected to run scratch and if we didn't there would be "consequences". Eventually they gave up and moved on to something else.
 

air_dr

Well-Known Member
OH boy! I knew when I posted the buy stock remark it would spur some some lively responses.It was kind of "tongue and cheek" remark . The fact is though, UPS has a obligation to the share holders and the management seem to be serving them well in the form of profit and returns.I don't like the cut cut cut attidude of management that is why I am a steward.I try to enforce the contractor every day sometimes without much help from my fellow employees. The moral of the story from my point of view is that UPS is sucessful company that is less than perfect in an imperfect world that compensates its employees pretty well ( because of the IBT).A lot of people are out of work but we are getting raises and have excellant health care which we only pay for in the form of sweat.
Ps I buy stock via the discount employee purchase plan every week. I just wish they would go back to the 10% discount instead of the 5% now that they appear to be so healthy. Fat chance ! See what I mean less than perfect.
My time at UPS although hard (I am 56 yrs old) is refreshing.Look I am pro union and been told a pretty good steward and like I have said earlier the company is not perfect. As union members we need to call them on their transgressions.But trust me its not that bad I have seen the other side.May I offer Walmart for example or maybe our competition FEDEX. How do they stack up in pay and benefits.
I think it was Churchill?? who once said that a society can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners. I think a company can be and should be judged by how it treats its employees. In that case, if you look over how UPS discards its employees just because they do not move fast enough or use the exact way or method of delivering or handling a package, etc , absolutely, this company mistreats its employees.
My original point was and is this very profittable company was MADE profittable by the blood and sweat of these workers who are then not only NOT rewarded, but they are spit out. This isn't GM! Through the recent hard times, UPS MADE profits. And now after they survive those tough times, they go after long time employees like friend/T clerks.
This is why UPS Corporate is acting in a very unethical and immoral manner. Yes, that behavior, that practice HAS to be exposed to the general public. All the general public basically sees is their UPS driver and a few slick commercials on TV. They have no clue of the decisions made in the cold, dark board room in Atlanta. "Attention, attention must finally be paid!"
PT Stewie, thank you for your posts, quoted above. I believe they contain some real wisdom and many who have contributed to this thread would do well to reread them.

You know, when a conversation goes deeper into certain subjects, depending on who I am hanging around with in a particular moment, I have felt like either a leftist socialist Marxist or a right-wing, libertarian, free market captalist. God help me. And God help our polarized and messed up world.

Amid all of the passion on this thread, from you and others, 804brown, you make a good point with your quote "a society can be judged by the way it treats its prisoners." (I think "prisoners" may actually be "most vulnerable members," but the point is the same.) However, even though I consider myself a loyal Teamster, I have a problem with the title of this thread "How dare UPS layoff workers after profitting $5.8 BILLION in 2010?" and many of the other things you have said.

It appears to me that you completely fail to distinguish between actual contract violations for which the company should most certainly be called on, and lawful, legitimate, and I would argue even ethical changes to operations that cause a certain amount of suffering to certain individuals (FT clerks at present, for example). One quality that successful people and organizations possess is the ability to adapt to a changing world and reinvent themselves.

Cities, once upon a time, employed lamp lighters to light gas powered street lights. Not even the wealthiest communities have kept on the payroll a bunch of lamp lighters with nothing to do because "we are so rich, have so much, and, at least the decent among us, will feel better knowing we didn't lay off and bring suffering upon some poor soul of far humbler means." If this seems a bit far fetched consider...

As another example: the railroads. Once upon a time, there was not just a need for engineers and conductors, but also firemen (to shover the coal) and brakemen (to set brakes). With technological development, on modern diesel-electric trains, those people are simply uneeded. Freight trains of the past operated with five man crews. Today its two. The Brotherhood of Railway Firemen tried, and for a time put up a successful resistance, but it prooved to be a loosing battle. Union person though I am, certain unrealistic labor arrangements, I believe, made some lean times (60s, 70s) for the railroads even leaner, but with reasonable changes, today, the industry is once again not only strong, but growing and hiring people for well paying jobs.

If UPS concludes they can accomplish something without a particular job, I see nothing unethical about eliminating that position, even if the company had made 580 billion. In fact, they have a duty to the shareholder to eliminate that job. (Though I am not happy to see someone out of work.)

You say you want to expose UPS' behavior to the general public. I say go for it. Take aim at harassment and other mistreatment. Grieve actual contract violoations. But don't bog yourself down lamenting what most objective people (myself included) will view as progress, even if it comes with some pain. Pick your battles wisely!
 
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menotyou

bella amicizia
Fed Ex shouldn't be used as an example of a competitors wages as it has an unfair advantage of being an "airline" with "subcontractors".
 

Nimnim

The Nim
Fed Ex shouldn't be used as an example of a competitors wages as it has an unfair advantage of being an "airline" with "subcontractors".

Competition is competition no matter how they run their business. They provide the same service, they just use different methods. Whether those methods are fair don't change the fact we have to compete or suffer from losing market share.
 

menotyou

bella amicizia
Competition is competition no matter how they run their business. They provide the same service, they just use different methods. Whether those methods are fair don't change the fact we have to compete or suffer from losing market share.
I agree they are competition. I do not agree that it is fair to compare driver compensation or the lack of on-car supervisors because of a legislative difference that Fed Ex takes extreme advantage of. Those "methods" are fruit of a poisonous tree, in my opinion. It is not fair to Joe Driver or Chrissy the Customer. We are losing market share that we had. We are shooting ourselves in the foot because we don't have to time to say Hi to Chrissy. Chrissy sees a pissed off Joe and thinks why should I use UPS. Our only real competition is ourselves. We owned the market. Not anymore.
 

worldwide

Well-Known Member
I agree they are competition. I do not agree that it is fair to compare driver compensation or the lack of on-car supervisors because of a legislative difference that Fed Ex takes extreme advantage of. Those "methods" are fruit of a poisonous tree, in my opinion. It is not fair to Joe Driver or Chrissy the Customer. We are losing market share that we had. We are shooting ourselves in the foot because we don't have to time to say Hi to Chrissy. Chrissy sees a pissed off Joe and thinks why should I use UPS. Our only real competition is ourselves. We owned the market. Not anymore.

So if all drivers had an extra 5-15 minutes to talk to all the Chrissy's of the world, they would stay with UPS, regardless of the rates and services that the competition (whoever you think they are) are offering. You truly believe that's all that is needed? We are losing market share and the solution is to give more time to drivers to "say Hi" to customers?
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
I agree they are competition. I do not agree that it is fair to compare driver compensation or the lack of on-car supervisors because of a legislative difference that Fed Ex takes extreme advantage of. Those "methods" are fruit of a poisonous tree, in my opinion. It is not fair to Joe Driver or Chrissy the Customer. We are losing market share that we had. We are shooting ourselves in the foot because we don't have to time to say Hi to Chrissy. Chrissy sees a pissed off Joe and thinks why should I use UPS. Our only real competition is ourselves. We owned the market. Not anymore.

Just for clarification....

FedEx Express has the legislative advantage, not FedEx ground. Because they started as an airline, ALL their employees are considered as being under the RLA. This makes it difficult to organize their drivers. This is the legislation that UPS and the Union have been trying to fix. A driver is a driver, not a pilot.

FedEx ground takes advantage of a contractor model. We believe that they are inappropriately classifying their people as contractors when they should be employees. Its amazing. Ask you neighbor if they know that a FedEx driver does NOT work for FedEX.

This situation gives FedEx a huge cost advantage in the ground business. They don't care if a driver is "over-allowed". They don't need to manage or supervise them. AND, they pay almost 1/2 for a driver that UPS does.

So, think about it. are we losing packages to FedEx ground because we don't say "Hi to Chrissy?" Is the FedEx ground driver (who doesn't get paid by the hour) taking the time? Maybe, but FedEx doesn't pay for it.

Our people are better, our service is better. From what I hear, we are losing volume because of price. (and sometimes time in transit, but that's more limited now).

This is why SurePost is coming. Not to make more profit (its a low margin service), but to not lose the volume.
 
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