How Does the White House Counter "Dissent" At Town Halls Meeting? Plants!

[tieguy]

Bush inherited the most powerful and expensive armed forces on the planet.

Bush built it. Clinton and congress had it stripped down. And in fairness to Bill and that congress I think it did help our economy with his spending less on the military. And in fairness to them both I think in hindsight they would have done things differently had they known. Objectively though the signs were there with the numerous attacks prior to 9/11. I find it odd that so many previous Clinton folks claim they tried to warn Bush yet they did a miserable job detecting and preventing attacks during the Clinton terms.

The Clinton administration tried to make sure there was a clean transition on intelligence, but the Bush White House held anything Democratic in such contempt that they blew it off. Remember the infamous August 2001 briefing about Osama Bin Laden, when Bush told the briefer, "Okay, you covered your ass, now get out of here."?

Sometimes you look past what the clinton administration says and look at what they did. They were so pissed that Gore did not win that they even trashed the white house before leaving it to Bush.

What I will give Bush credit for is several things:
1) The Surge

2) Listening more to Condi Rice than Dick Cheney after 2006.

I never saw that transition?

3) Apparently having learned from his mistakes in the transition from Bill Clinton, he went out of his way to insure a clean transition to Barack Obama.

This appears to be a contradiction of your point that Clinton tried to make a clean transition?

 

[bbsam]

I don't see a reason to respond to your contrived acts of offense. Someone who claims to be an advocate of diversity such as yourself should be intelligent enough to appeciate the diversity of expressions and slang they would experience around the country without crying racism. Once you make the charges of racism you have thrown up the ultimate white flag in taking the cowardly approach in defense of those issues you could not debate. At that time I take my victory and move on.

Then I assume that such "slang" would be seen as approriate in the work place by black co-workers and other ups management. I am amazed. But when such slang is used, expect the question to be raised. If you walked into an office Halloween party with a KKK costume eyebrow would be raised, and rightly so. And I was never arguing a point on this thread, merely noticing the language being used. In fact my first post made it clear that I know nothing about you, but I do know language, connotation and slang.

 

[MC4YOU2]

the cork going over niagra falls will never climb back up the waterfall. Are you saying this economy will never recover?

I'm saying that is what our current president inherited, a cork going over a waterfall. I'm also saying that conservatives seem to believe more measureably favorable results should be seen by now, 7 months into our new diet. Its a shame they can't be as patient as they were for the eight years previous. So I take that to mean you will not be the first conservative to say were asking too much too soon this go around?

 

[TechGrrl]

This appears to be a contradiction of your point that Clinton tried to make a clean transition?

Clinton tried to make a clean transition; Bush ignored him at the time and blew him off. Later, after sober reflection, I think he realized that was a mistake, and so therefore did due diligence in his turnover to Obama.

 

[TechGrrl]

The Clinton administration tried to make sure there was a clean transition on intelligence, but the Bush White House held anything Democratic in such contempt that they blew it off. Remember the infamous August 2001 briefing about Osama Bin Laden, when Bush told the briefer, "Okay, you covered your ass, now get out of here."?

Sometimes you look past what the clinton administration says and look at what they did. They were so pissed that Gore did not win that they even trashed the white house before leaving it to Bush.

Much of those reports of 'trashing' were exaggerated. I notice you didn't comment on the August 2001 briefing.

As far as the Condi Rice vs. Dick Cheney comment, most objective observers agree that President Bush moved toward a more realistic diplomatic approach to foreign policy, and away from the neo-con approach of Cheney and Rumsfeld. He fired Rumsfeld, and hired Gates. Even Dick Cheney thinks so, and is still pissed, if you believe what his friends say will be in his forthcoming book.

 

[TechGrrl]

I didn't ask you why you didn't vote for Mccain/Palin. You say you lean conservative/libertarian. I would think you would have voted for Barr or the libertarian candidate rather then taking a huge leap in beliefs to vote for the great socialist?

Why waste a vote? I wanted the Repubs out, and my vote to count for something. I voted against Mitch McConnell, too, and that was a relatively close race. In a state where McCain outpolled Obama by about 15 points, Mitch squeaked by a guy he outspent 2-1.

 

[tieguy]

Then I assume that such "slang" would be seen as approriate in the work place by black co-workers and other ups management. I am amazed. But when such slang is used, expect the question to be raised. If you walked into an office Halloween party with a KKK costume eyebrow would be raised, and rightly so. And I was never arguing a point on this thread, merely noticing the language being used. In fact my first post made it clear that I know nothing about you, but I do know language, connotation and slang.

Honestly never heard the objections to the use of this slang referred to in any racial form. Also being honest I thought we had worked past the use of boy or girl being deemed a term of bigotry. I honestly don't know how we will ever break down the barriers to a harmonious society if we constantly get hung up on the usage of words. I was foriegn born. I don't have a history here to get tied to. My lineage goes back to germany. I was often ostracized as a kid for being a "nazi" though I had nothing to do with that mindset. I think those that spend their time looking for reasons to either hate or be offended by hate do the world a disservice.

 

[tieguy]

I'm saying that is what our current president inherited, a cork going over a waterfall. I'm also saying that conservatives seem to believe more measureably favorable results should be seen by now, 7 months into our new diet. Its a shame they can't be as patient as they were for the eight years previous. So I take that to mean you will not be the first conservative to say were asking too much too soon this go around?

Objectively we have invested 3.2 trillion in the hope it will ignite this economy. The conservative bet would be to cut spending and decrease taxes to kick start the economy. The benefit of the conservative mindset is it cuts your losses and minimize your risk. If this 3.2 trillion dollar experiment does not work then the consequences could reasonably be catastrophic. The assumption made by the democrats is that things can not get worse. Thus the argument made to give Obama a chance. In reality if Obamas 3.2 trillion dollar experiment does not work then the house will burn down and burn quickly. there are many potential levels of disaster that can await us if Obamas experiment does not work that make the current level of despair look like a vacation.

I was alive and cognizant during the carter years. His 21 percent interest rates strangled this country. The current mess is a breeze compared to the Carter years.

 

[tieguy]

Clinton tried to make a clean transition; Bush ignored him at the time and blew him off. Later, after sober reflection, I think he realized that was a mistake, and so therefore did due diligence in his turnover to Obama.

I think if you look deeply and objectively the signs are there that Clinton and his people many loyal to Gore did not do a helpful handoff to Bush or even attempt it. Your willingness to easily believe this misinformation from the clinton camp is another reason I question your assertion that you are in fact a conservative/libertarian. Your many arguments for the Obama socialization efforts would be others.

 

[tieguy]

Much of those reports of 'trashing' were exaggerated. I notice you didn't comment on the August 2001 briefing.

As far as the Condi Rice vs. Dick Cheney comment, most objective observers agree that President Bush moved toward a more realistic diplomatic approach to foreign policy, and away from the neo-con approach of Cheney and Rumsfeld. He fired Rumsfeld, and hired Gates. Even Dick Cheney thinks so, and is still pissed, if you believe what his friends say will be in his forthcoming book.

I didn't realize that I needed to comment on something so rediculous as the august briefing.

The terrorist came to this country during the clinton presidency and practiced their terrorist plan without detection. Yet we are expected to believe that the clinton people knew of a threat and warned Bush.

The clinton administration was victim to numerous terrorist attacks prior to Bush taking over yet claim they warned the bush adminstration of an impending threat. Seems like they would have detected and prevented at least one of the many terrorist attacks that took place on their watch if they were really on their game.

For some reason we are expected to believe that they had all this insight to help Bush prevent 9/11 yet were unable to apply the same insight to prevent the numerous terrorist attacks during Clintons presidency.

 

[fact check]

Terrorist Attacks Bill Clinton Stopped

Just for the record, under Richard Clarke's leadership as Czar of Counterterrorism:.

· CLINTON developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy,
and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to kill the Pope.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Boston airport.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

· Bill Clinton tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through
preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

· Bill Clinton brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.

· Bill Clinton did not blame the Bush I administration for first WTC bombing even though it
occurred 38 days after Bush left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively - and successfully
- to stop future terrorist attacks.

· Bill Clinton named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats
and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

· Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911)
The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

· Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding.
It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

· Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking
of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.

· Bill Clinton increased the military budget by an average of 14 per cent, reversing the trend under Bush I.

· Bill Clinton tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

· Bill Clinton detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries.

· Bill Clinton created national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

· Of Clinton's efforts says Robert Oakley, Reagan Ambassador for Counterterrorism:
"Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama".

· Paul Bremer, current Civilian Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley as
he believed the Bill Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden.

· Barton Gellman in the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Bill Clinton left office
having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration
to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort".

Clarence Swinney,
Political Historian

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

fact, great first post but perhaps a link would have been more effective than posting the entire article IMO.

 

[wkmac]

I never saw that transition?

Tie,

Techgrrl is correct about Bush after the 06' elections turning to Rice and almost turning off Cheney. In Dec. 07' John Bolton, UN Ambassador for the US under Bush gave an interview and he really said what the media was already widely reporting at the time. In fact they were gloating over it and for a period every chance they got they rubbed it in.

Here is John Bolton, a Bush official most loyal to the policies of the Bush adminstration of which many I know you'd agree so you can take him at his word.

SPIEGEL Interview with Former US Diplomat John Bolton

SPIEGEL: Mr. Ambassador, you worked closely with the president and you shared his hawkish views on Iraq. But your new book is fiercely critical of George W. Bush. Why?

Bolton: His foreign policy is in free fall. The president is turning against his own best judgment and instincts under the influence of Secretary (of State Condoleeza) Rice. She is the dominant voice, indeed, almost the only voice on foreign policy in this administration.
SPIEGEL: The popular reading of her looks a bit different. She is presumed to be weak and not particularly efficient.
Bolton: No. Rice is channeling the views of the liberal career bureaucrats in the State Department. The president is focusing all his attention on Iraq and, by doing so, has allowed the secretary to become captured by the State Department. He is not adequately supervising her. It is a mistake.
SPIEGEL: Could it be that your pique really comes from the fact that the president doesn't seem to be listening to neoconservatives like you anymore?
Bolton: The vice president (Vice President Dick Cheney) is still there. But the idea that somehow the neocons were so powerful is a myth -- I mean, it was five or six people, for God sakes. I am not a neoconservative. I am pro-American.
SPIEGEL: You have said that the new moderate foreign policy currently being followed by Bush compromises the security of the United States.
Bolton: Well, I think so. North Korea is going to get away with keeping its nuclear weapons. I think the (National Intelligence Estimate) sends Iran a signal they can do whatever they want…

Even Cheney admits this as seen in a recent Washington Post article.

Cheney Uncloaks His Frustration With Bush

Both articles are worth the read and informative. I do believe Cheney and his "friends" did have an agenda outside those of the President and I think President Bush began to see this himself and turn away from it.

 

[tieguy]

· Bill Clinton increased the military budget by an average of 14 per cent, reversing the trend under Bush I.

Clarence Swinney,
Political Historian

So much to dispute here I don't know where to start.

Military spending reduction was greater under Bush 1 but continued under Clinton.

 

[tieguy]

Terrorist Attacks Bill Clinton Stopped

Just for the record, under Richard Clarke's leadership as Czar of Counterterrorism:.

· CLINTON developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy,
and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to kill the Pope.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Boston airport.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.

· Bill Clinton stopped cold a planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

· Bill Clinton tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through
preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

· Bill Clinton brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.

· Bill Clinton did not blame the Bush I administration for first WTC bombing even though it
occurred 38 days after Bush left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively - and successfully
- to stop future terrorist attacks.

· Bill Clinton named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats
and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

· Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to tighten airport security. (Remember, this is before 911)
The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

· Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to allow for better tracking of terrorist funding.
It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

· Bill Clinton sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for better tracking
of explosives used by terrorists. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.

· Bill Clinton tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

· Bill Clinton detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries.

· Bill Clinton created national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

· Of Clinton's efforts says Robert Oakley, Reagan Ambassador for Counterterrorism:
"Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama".

· Paul Bremer, current Civilian Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley as
he believed the Bill Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden.

· Barton Gellman in the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Bill Clinton left office
having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration
to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort".

Clarence Swinney,
Political Historian

You have a nice list here of Clintons alleged anti-terrorist successes. The problem here is you don't measure the success by what you claim you stopped but by what you did not stop. Attached a list of major terrorist actions. Notice the list stops with 9/11. Bush definitely put the processes in and stopped that trend. Hard to argue with that kind of success.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120504001557/http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/chronology.html

 

[tieguy]

And next a list of 19 attacks stopped since 9/11

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-terrorist-attacks-against-america-since-9-11

 

[1989]

While its true that Bush is old news, its a bit like saying a fat man who ate doughnuts and sausage for eight years should be healthy already after 7 months of trying to decide what a more healthy diet might be. At least Obama is willing to take on these controversial issues and begin to move us closer toward a healthy diet, if he can just get congress to hammer it out. We are going to see these issues resolved I'm sure of it. It would be better if we do it quickly, but the country is scared from all the downturn and so it will likely take some time. Just like a sensible diet is a lifestyle change that won't work if you don't stick with it, healthcare needs to reformed from 'doughnuts and sausage' before we can even begin to measure progress.

Yep, Bush is old news alright, like all those doughnuts we ate for eight years. Gone, but still following us around.

I will ask this again:

"what has obama done?"

I heard this guy on Bloomberg the other day talking about why any country would buy our debt. He said that when Bush left our national debt was 6% of GDP now it is at 14% and obama wants to increase it even more.

 

[tieguy]

We should know in about 7 years.

we know now.

 

[tieguy]

Why waste a vote? I wanted the Repubs out, and my vote to count for something. I voted against Mitch McConnell, too, and that was a relatively close race. In a state where McCain outpolled Obama by about 15 points, Mitch squeaked by a guy he outspent 2-1.

Violate your principles to keep from wasting a vote?

So if the choice had been hitler promising death camps with 50 percent in the polls you would have voted for Adolf to keep from wasting a vote?

Look Dear its your vote to waste as you want to. But my point is that you're voting for Obama clearly shows that you're not really a conservative/libertarian. Thats all.

 

[tieguy]

I will ask this again:

"what has obama done?"

I heard this guy on Bloomberg the other day talking about why any country would buy our debt. He said that when Bush left our national debt was 6% of GDP now it is at 14% and obama wants to increase it even more.

Obama will go down in history as the greatest tax and spender since FDR.