I drink your milkshake! a metaphor for capitalism

rickyb

Well-Known Member
what if the worker does not want that control.
they apparently dont because if they did we wouldnt have capitalism. you have to understand theres a huge system of propaganda out there to stop people pursing what would otherwise come naturally to them...the people who control the means of production, also control the mental production as well.

but anyways my favorite economist richard wolff says he always asks his class every year what is their career goal, and they always say "to run their own business", which says to me people want to control their own destiny, be it individually or together. i was having a talk with a coworker the other day, he wanted to start his own biz and was critical of being ripped off by capitalism making someone else rich, even if he didnt call capitalism out specifically.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
if workers owned and controlled their jobs cooperatively, instead of taking orders under capitalism, would they do this to themselves?

this is the bottom of the barrel and the future of capitalism in america if nothing changes

https://www.oxfamamerica.org/static/media/files/No_Relief.pdf

this is in america:

"Routinely, poultry workers say, they are denied breaks to
use the bathroom.
Supervisors mock their needs and ignore
their requests; they threaten punishment or firing. Workers
wait inordinately long times (an hour or more), then race to
accomplish the task within a certain timeframe (e.g., ten
minutes) or risk discipline.

Workers struggle to cope with this denial of a basic human
need. They urinate and defecate while standing on the line;
they wear diapers to work; they restrict intake of liquids and
fluids to dangerous degrees;
they endure pain and discomfort
while they worry about their health and job security. And
it’s not just their dignity that suffers: they are in danger of
serious health problems.

in one survey of 266 workers in Alabama conducted by the
Southern Poverty Law Center, nearly 80 percent said they are
not allowed to take bathroom breaks when needed.

A recent
survey in Minnesota revealed that 86 percent of workers
interviewed said they get fewer than two bathroom breaks in
a week.

jose, who worked at a Pilgrim’s plant in
Alabama, says the supervisors regularly threatened people: “Go
to the bathroom, and from there, go to Human Resources.” He
witnessed many women crying about not getting to go to the
bathroom, even if they were menstruating.

In a lawsuit against a poultry company in Mississippi, women
workers say that their supervisor “charged them money for
such things as using the bathroom.

If they are forced to wait too long after asking
for a break, they may be compelled to urinate where they are
standing, or while running to the restroom.

Too many workers tell stories about urinating on themselves,
or witnessing coworkers urinating on themselves. It is not only
embarrassing and degrading, it’s extremely uncomfortable
to feel the warm urine in a frigid environment, and to have
wet clothing in temperatures hovering around 40 degrees.


Hanson, a worker at a Tyson plant in Arkansas, had the
uncomfortable experience of seeing his own mother urinate
on herself at work
; she now wears diapers to work to avoid it
happening again. Fern, a Tyson worker in Arkansas, said she
had to wait so long that she had to urinate at her work station;
she believes others had the same experience, but most are too
humiliated to share the experience.

Robert, who works at a Simmons plant in Arkansas says, “I’ve
seen people pee on the line—and sometimes when they’re
running to get to the bathroom, women pee on themselves.”
He once saw a man running toward the bathroom who both
peed and defecated on himself.
“I don’t know any more about
it than the shame of that man who went to the bathroom like
that... He told his supervisor and they sent him home.

To add to the risk, studies show that poultry workers in many
plants may absorb so many antibiotics from handling chicken
flesh
that they build a resistance to antibiotics, which can make
it difficult to treat infections.

One study of the biological effects of not being able
to use the bathroom when necessary reported that the pressure
on the bladder and the urethra can cause kidney damage,
infection, and even death.

The biggest risk to workers is of developing urinary tract
infections (UTIs).
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
i was listening to richard wolff, and he thinks because wages are being so supressed and the middle class is dying, that in the future instead of people owning their own cars (which is terribly inefficient anyways), people who only be able to afford to rideshare. kinda like how only the rich own their own airplanes, and everyone else (if they can afford it) flys together in cramped planes
 
if workers owned and controlled their jobs cooperatively, instead of taking orders under capitalism, would they do this to themselves?

this is the bottom of the barrel and the future of capitalism in america if nothing changes

https://www.oxfamamerica.org/static/media/files/No_Relief.pdf

this is in america:

"Routinely, poultry workers say, they are denied breaks to
use the bathroom.
Supervisors mock their needs and ignore
their requests; they threaten punishment or firing. Workers
wait inordinately long times (an hour or more), then race to
accomplish the task within a certain timeframe (e.g., ten
minutes) or risk discipline.

Workers struggle to cope with this denial of a basic human
need. They urinate and defecate while standing on the line;
they wear diapers to work; they restrict intake of liquids and
fluids to dangerous degrees;
they endure pain and discomfort
while they worry about their health and job security. And
it’s not just their dignity that suffers: they are in danger of
serious health problems.

in one survey of 266 workers in Alabama conducted by the
Southern Poverty Law Center, nearly 80 percent said they are
not allowed to take bathroom breaks when needed.

A recent
survey in Minnesota revealed that 86 percent of workers
interviewed said they get fewer than two bathroom breaks in
a week.

jose, who worked at a Pilgrim’s plant in
Alabama, says the supervisors regularly threatened people: “Go
to the bathroom, and from there, go to Human Resources.” He
witnessed many women crying about not getting to go to the
bathroom, even if they were menstruating.

In a lawsuit against a poultry company in Mississippi, women
workers say that their supervisor “charged them money for
such things as using the bathroom.

If they are forced to wait too long after asking
for a break, they may be compelled to urinate where they are
standing, or while running to the restroom.

Too many workers tell stories about urinating on themselves,
or witnessing coworkers urinating on themselves. It is not only
embarrassing and degrading, it’s extremely uncomfortable
to feel the warm urine in a frigid environment, and to have
wet clothing in temperatures hovering around 40 degrees.


Hanson, a worker at a Tyson plant in Arkansas, had the
uncomfortable experience of seeing his own mother urinate
on herself at work
; she now wears diapers to work to avoid it
happening again. Fern, a Tyson worker in Arkansas, said she
had to wait so long that she had to urinate at her work station;
she believes others had the same experience, but most are too
humiliated to share the experience.

Robert, who works at a Simmons plant in Arkansas says, “I’ve
seen people pee on the line—and sometimes when they’re
running to get to the bathroom, women pee on themselves.”
He once saw a man running toward the bathroom who both
peed and defecated on himself.
“I don’t know any more about
it than the shame of that man who went to the bathroom like
that... He told his supervisor and they sent him home.

To add to the risk, studies show that poultry workers in many
plants may absorb so many antibiotics from handling chicken
flesh
that they build a resistance to antibiotics, which can make
it difficult to treat infections.

One study of the biological effects of not being able
to use the bathroom when necessary reported that the pressure
on the bladder and the urethra can cause kidney damage,
infection, and even death.

The biggest risk to workers is of developing urinary tract
infections (UTIs).
Their are more chickens on the planet than their are people
How many chickens on Earth?
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
the real socialist alternative to capitalism they never told you about:

Gold-Mining-Cooperative-Vs-Capitalist-Mining-Company-Works--How-Corporations-Work--.jpg
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Where do these workers get the funds to buy in? And can they afford the potential low income that comes from starting a new business?

Farm coops are all over the place. Typically pre-funded by customers before the crops are planted. They buy a share and get a box/bag of the crops each week.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
Where do these workers get the funds to buy in? And can they afford the potential low income that comes from starting a new business?

Farm coops are all over the place. Typically pre-funded by customers before the crops are planted. They buy a share and get a box/bag of the crops each week.
in italy, the government passed a law which if X number of people who are unemployed agree to start a coop together, then the government will give them their EI in lump sum so they can do that.

i cant remember, but i would imagine they take a small portion of the paycheck, or maybe they get a loan.

you could check out democracyatwork.info, rdwolff.com, community-wealth.org, gar alperovitz, or just search cooperative.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
in italy, the government passed a law which if X number of people who are unemployed agree to start a coop together, then the government will give them their EI in lump sum so they can do that.

i cant remember, but i would imagine they take a small portion of the paycheck, or maybe they get a loan.

you could check out democracyatwork.info, rdwolff.com, community-wealth.org, gar alperovitz, or just search cooperative.
I've tried looking this stuff up, but could never find any hard numbers. Where are the hard numbers? Can't you find any yourself?

They are run like any corporation. They elect board members (elected by said shareholders). They have management. They have workers. The workers don't have equal say in the business.

Again, I'm just trying to figure out these workers costs, rate of their return. What happens in a quarter of negative earnings, or in case of a quarterly charge. Such as health care increases, or a pension malfunction. What if a farm has a salmonella outbreak. Just give me some damn figures.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
I've tried looking this stuff up, but could never find any hard numbers. Where are the hard numbers? Can't you find any yourself?

They are run like any corporation. They elect board members (elected by said shareholders). They have management. They have workers. The workers don't have equal say in the business.

Again, I'm just trying to figure out these workers costs, rate of their return. What happens in a quarter of negative earnings, or in case of a quarterly charge. Such as health care increases, or a pension malfunction. What if a farm has a salmonella outbreak. Just give me some damn figures.
Worker Cooperatives Performance and Success Factors

they are pretty similiar to a capitalist corporation except that workers vote (more or less) on how to run their business. if its less, then they are probably voting in managers as a representative, and have less of a direct say themselves.

during the great depression / recession we just had, the mondragon cooperative in spain decided to cut all workers hours instead of just laying off workers.

the mondragon cooperative has a max inequality of 8x what the lowest paid worker makes. whereas CEOs in america earn 350x.

richard wolff does economic update radio program 1x a week. he frequently answers cooperative questions at the end of his show.

its probably what i said which is a small portion of the cheque goes toward owning a share of the coop. or a loan.
 

1989

Well-Known Member
Worker Cooperatives Performance and Success Factors

they are pretty similiar to a capitalist corporation except that workers vote (more or less) on how to run their business. if its less, then they are probably voting in managers as a representative, and have less of a direct say themselves.

during the great depression / recession we just had, the mondragon cooperative in spain decided to cut all workers hours instead of just laying off workers.

the mondragon cooperative has a max inequality of 8x what the lowest paid worker makes. whereas CEOs in america earn 350x.

richard wolff does economic update radio program 1x a week. he frequently answers cooperative questions at the end of his show.

its probably what i said which is a small portion of the cheque goes toward owning a share of the coop. or a loan.

I have ups stock so I have the same vote as your coop. Ups is just a larger scale, there is no difference. They have no say in day to day operations. Do you think the ceo makes up their own compensation? My only question is in their pay and liability during off years.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
I have ups stock so I have the same vote as your coop. Ups is just a larger scale, there is no difference. They have no say in day to day operations. Do you think the ceo makes up their own compensation? My only question is in their pay and liability during off years.
no just because you own stock in ups dont mean you can vote everyday. in UPS you show up every day and you take orders. some coops are actually democratic so you can vote on workplace issues every day.

its one person , one vote in worker coops, its not 1 share 1 vote like in corporations.

 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
So in reality if the workers decide to keep the profits for themselves and not to spend such profits into improving the business , when the business fails who gets the blame ?
 
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