I drink your milkshake! a metaphor for capitalism

[DriveInDriveOut]

Sure. It's frequently found on Right Wing media or in utopian Libertarian tomes about how the "free market" is the self-correcting "magic" that makes capitalism work. These are the same folks who would have happily watched GM fail and take the rest of the economy with it.

It only exists in the ether.

Well I don't have any delusions about a free market existing in this country. That being said GM should have been allowed to fail, and so should wall street.

My problem is with people who tout the benefits of a free market like it's a real thing and then back political parties that participate in the bailouts.

 

[teamer]

I love me a nice chocolate banana milkshake

 

[MrFedEx]

Well I don't have any delusions about a free market existing in this country. That being said GM should have been allowed to fail, and so should wall street.

My problem is with people who tout the benefits of a free market like it's a real thing and then back political parties that participate in the bailouts.

No such thing as a free market when you have corporations who get plenty of breaks and advantages. The problem with letting businesses fail is the multiplier effect. If GM had gone under, so would the suppliers and it would have been the same for Chrysler. The whole concept of a free market is false anyway, and exists only as a means to justify idiotic conservative proposals and economic policies.

 

[teamer]

No such thing as a free market when you have corporations who get plenty of breaks and advantages. The problem with letting businesses fail is the multiplier effect. If GM had gone under, so would the suppliers and it would have been the same for Chrysler. The whole concept of a free market is false anyway, and exists only as a means to justify idiotic conservative proposals and economic policies.

the problem with the argument from your side of the fence is you want to punish a corporation when they are successful and you want to let them fail when they are not.

The corporation for all its evils does often employ hundreds of thousands of people and also does a lot to help a community through various charities and community help groups, volunteerism etc. when you badmouths corporation then he should also address the good that many do.

 

[rickyb]

the problem with the argument from your side of the fence is you want to punish a corporation when they are successful and you want to let them fail when they are not.

The corporation for all its evils does often employ hundreds of thousands of people and also does a lot to help a community through various charities and community help groups, volunteerism etc. when you badmouths corporation then he should also address the good that many do.

they do a combination of bad and good.

if you want to see what a free market does, watch what (adam) smith does in the matrix trilogy.

btw, JFK's father was a millionaire and he said to FDR that he would have given 50% of his wealth in order to keep the other 50% so he didnt lose all of his wealth to revolution. that time is rapidly approaching again when the american population is going to putting fear into the leaders to do the same. it will once again be a choice between reform and revolution.

 

[MrFedEx]

the problem with the argument from your side of the fence is you want to punish a corporation when they are successful and you want to let them fail when they are not.

The corporation for all its evils does often employ hundreds of thousands of people and also does a lot to help a community through various charities and community help groups, volunteerism etc. when you badmouths corporation then he should also address the good that many do.

Huh? Where did I say I want them to fail? Corporations that behave badly need to be punished, as in GM with their ignition issues, or in the investment sector, the banks, who have pilfered billions. Corporations are not people either, despite what Mitt Romney thinks. No, they're not perfect, and they need to be regulated by the government, not the "free market", but we do need them to make our economic system work.

 

[teamer]

they do a combination of bad and good.

.

agreed, I just missed the part where everyone talks about the good. When Bernie talks about putting health Insurance companies out of business as he moves to single payer I wonder if the thinks about all the employees of those companies that could lose their jobs.

 

[MrFedEx]

agreed, I just missed the part where everyone talks about the good. When Bernie talks about putting health Insurance companies out of business as he moves to single payer I wonder if the thinks about all the employees of those companies that could lose their jobs.

Single payer would allow many Americans to retire, because a great number continue to work just for medical coverage. Them leaving would open up quite a few jobs. The health insurance companies deserve exactly what they get, and I don't feel sorry for any of them.

 

[rickyb]

agreed, I just missed the part where everyone talks about the good. When Bernie talks about putting health Insurance companies out of business as he moves to single payer I wonder if the thinks about all the employees of those companies that could lose their jobs.

and im not saying corporations are a perfect balance of good an evil. i think theyve got to go, and are mostly evil.

well really, we should be thinking of ways of getting people off jobs and automating as much as possible. most people dont like their jobs, and were it not for their income, they would certainly prefer a machine do it instead. your private healthcare system has a massive bureaucracy and if you could find a more efficient system (which shouldnt be hard considering its the most inefficient one), then why not?

you healthcare system also restricts the free market in that it influences workers to stick with an employer who provides healthcare. if healthcare was a right, the workers could more freely choose on the market between employers. it also burdens corporations with paying for healthcare

 

[teamer]

and im not saying corporations are a perfect balance of good an evil. i think theyve got to go, and are mostly evil.

You have to be kidding ? what would you do with the 400 k employees of a UPS if you abolish the corporation?

 

[wkmac]

Corporations are but a legal fiction created by the State mostly for the purpose of limited liability. IMO a means of State Privilege.

Just because the fiction goes away does not mean the purpose and need for the work to be done disappear with it.

 

[wkmac]

you healthcare system also restricts the free market

Both the current healthcare model and the former model it replaced both harmed, restricted and violated a true free market in health care. The crushing of any idea of free market in healthcare began in the early 20th century and one of the first victims was the concept of "Lodge Practice".

Another POV via the National Institutes of Health

Contract or Lodge Practice and its Influence On
Medical Attitudes to Health Insurance

 

[BrownArmy]

Both the current healthcare model and the former model it replaced both harmed, restricted and violated a true free market in health care. The crushing of any idea of free market in healthcare began in the early 20th century and one of the first victims was the concept of "Lodge Practice".

Another POV via the National Institutes of Health

Contract or Lodge Practice and its Influence On
Medical Attitudes to Health Insurance

This would be applicable to 2016 health care in what way?

 

[wkmac]

This would be applicable to 2016 health care in what way?

You tell me? I was making comment in light of rickyb's post regarding a free market in healthcare.

As to 2016' conditions, the healthcare market is both regulated and conditioned on who enters and who does not. If your idea of a non free market does not meet those conditions then from your POV there may be no application to the situation of healthcare in 2016'.

 

[BrownArmy]

Is it conceivable that some things shouldn't be left to market forces?

Health care?

Clean water?

Food supplies?

.........

We end up paying far more on the back-end for the negative outcomes of our poor 'Health-Care' system than we pay on the front end.

We pay so much money and have such poor results...

We don't have a supply problem...we have a distribution problem.

 

[wkmac]

Is it conceivable that some things shouldn't be left to market forces?

Health care?

Clean water?

Food supplies?

.........

We end up paying far more on the back-end for the negative outcomes of our poor 'Health-Care' system than we pay on the front end.

We pay so much money and have such poor results...

We don't have a supply problem...we have a distribution problem.

Did you read the articles linked? One of the complaints about Lodge practice was the fact that it undercut the ability for doctors to make more profits and this low cost approach acted to push prices down for those buying healthcare. Many doctors even wanted a form of blacklist for Lodge practice doctors.

And why is that not free market?

 

[oldngray]

 

[MrFedEx]

View attachment 69030

First, prove this is a picture of North Korea. My guess is that you can't.

 

[MrFedEx]

Is it conceivable that some things shouldn't be left to market forces?

Health care?

Clean water?

Food supplies?

.........

We end up paying far more on the back-end for the negative outcomes of our poor 'Health-Care' system than we pay on the front end.

We pay so much money and have such poor results...

We don't have a supply problem...we have a distribution problem.

To our Libertarian and Republican friends, there is nothing that shouldn't be privatized and run for-profit. Public transit, mental health facilities, and police and fire departments are just a few examples of where the profit motive doesn't belong and the "free market" is conveniently forgotten.

 

[rickyb]

david cay johnston talks about the economic system what some people would call corporatism, or crony capitalism