If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of service.

[Covemastah]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

My supe gave me the night off tonite,said he will give me funeral pay!! No one died ,but I figured "hey why not "" the lawyers on the B.C will justifie it and I should be O.K !!! I'll take the money,play stupid and blame some one else!!!!

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Sleeve

I posted I understand where you are coming from, not that I agree or support your view.

Just as silly as the "If the sup said to rob a bank, and you do it, is only the sup guilty"
A big difference here. The drivers were not told to do something, they accepted what was offered.

I sat on a jury that heard a murder robbery case. A man picked up two (awe heck, how do I post this without being called whatever..........retarded, stupid, dumb.....) guys on the way to visit his uncle's store. The two guys sat in the car, while he went in, shot his uncle, and robbed the store. He then left. He gave some of the cash to Coy and Roy, who had no knowledge of the crime that had taken place. He dropped them off in town, and they bought fishing stuff with the money and went fishing. Totally unaware that the murder and robbery had occurred until their arrest.

They were at the crime scene while the crime occurred. They received some of the money from the crime. Please note, they were never involved with planing, the actual commission of, or any attempt to cover up the crime.

The only reason they are not in jail is that they are not competent to stand trial. Had they been, they would be in jail right now.

Thats almost as good a defense as the guy who claimed his wife was cleaning the pistol, and it went off accidentally. Problem is, he shot his wife with the barrel inside her mouth. Hard to imagine someone sticking a gun in your mouth to clean it. Even harder to do without leaving fingerprints in the right places.

But yet you insist on repeating the story over and over..........

Because it's completely different if you just twist the story a tiny bit! If the sup held a gun to the drivers head and made that demand...do it or I kill you and your family....is it STILL the drivers fault, under a death wish?
You know, you really want to stretch what happened to fit how you want this to be. AT no time did the sup use force.

But lets play your what if game. The guy forces you to rob a bank, and holds your wife and three kids hostage. After you rob the bank, and he releases your wife and kids, you dont report the incident to the police. They arrest you for robbing the bank. And rightly so, because you did not report the problem.

So why, if the drivers felt like the big bad sup was forcing them to take jury duty pay wrongly, did they not report him to the company? After all, that is what any honest employee with the tiniest shred of integrity would have done.

Again, we don't know exactly what went on (if anything!) ...so the devil is in the details

Lets go over some facts that do not have to be posted.

1. When you get paid for other things than your regular workday, it is listed separately from the regular pay. So there is no way in heck that the drivers did not have a clue about how they were coded, all they had to to was look at the stub, its all there is black and white.

2. When you put in for Jury duty pay, you have to sign a paper stating that you were called and are serving. You are also required to show the company what the court system is paying you for your service. So to have gotten the money, they would have their signature on the paper stating they had served.

3. The contention of force being used to make the drivers accept the money, or the suggestion that the drivers were hoodwinked by management coding them incorrectly.......well both might make sense after a case or two of your favorite adult beverage, but not to the average person.

4. To try to state that the drivers were mislead, and only the sup should be punished, and somehow it is UPS's fault......and then to dream of winning this at a panel hearing? Only if Coy and Roy were representing the companies side.......and had participated in consuming said two cases of adult beverage.

d

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

D,

what you completely MISSED is that I was playing the GAME YOU or someone else proposed.

I explained that thoroughly.

:/

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Sleeve

You are very correct.

I did not pick up at all, that you were continuing a game. I mistook your sarcasm and satire as a passionate defense of the indefensible.

Unfortunately, that is one of the drawbacks of the written word.

d

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Sleeve

You are very correct.

I did not pick up at all, that you were continuing a game. I mistook your sarcasm and satire as a passionate defense of the indefensible.

Unfortunately, that is one of the drawbacks of the written word.

d

Funny all the difference of opinions and angles, for a loosely tied-together storyline with no detail whatsoever.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

for a loosely tied-together storyline with no detail whatsoever

I must agree, the story teller has a real problem in telling the story in an orderly fashion.

But, he did share some important details.

1. The company investigated the crime, suspended the drivers during that time as is policy, and when finished, fired the drivers on the facts in the case. In the majority of cases involving dishonesty, this pattern usually means they have a very strong if not open and shut case against the drivers. The term "where there is smoke, there is fire" comes to mind....

2. The case was strong enough against the sup, so strong he quit before he could be fired.

3. If the case against the drivers is not solid, then they will proceed to arbitration where someone independent will look at all the facts in the case and make a judgment. But from what was posted, only the Coy/Roy defense will help.

So those things we do know from the post, as well as business as usual at Brown.

d

 

[packageguy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

To answer the question, his pension should still be honored, We had a guy 27 years was caught stealing. he did get to keep his pension. He resigned.

 

[over9five]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

But I am still wondering why they got fired for dishonesty, but the sup was allowed to resign? From what I keep hearing, all dishonest people get the same treatment, regardless of their position, but it seems not so?

d

I have a theory on this. In every UPS building there is a small poster that says "$5000 reward for information leading to the termination of dishonest employees". Maybe someone narked the sup.

They let the sup resign, saving UPS $5000. No termination - no money.

 

[The Other Side]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Dannyboy,

I laugh at most of what you say, not cause of its witty content, but its ignorance.

I can only assume that you have ZERO experience with the arbitration process.

Let me see if I can break it down a bit more to capture your attention span.

First, If I was handling this specific case, all the drivers involved would file a protest to the termination (grievance) hold a hearing at hub level. At this hearing, the company would have to produce all documents and witnesses to the Union.

I would seek an agreement based on the premise I presented before on this thread. If the company rejects it and maintains its position on the terminations, I would immediately file for arbitration on ALL cases involved. In my local, we have "local" arbitration and not national.

I serve the company on each case, and supoena each and every supervisor who authorized this coding on payroll.

The company MUST provide access to these supervisors as witnesses and NO ONE other than those involved can speak or testify for them at trial.

If these supervisors dont show up or answer to the supoena at trial, the company would lose the case from the jump.

The company's position is to provide all witnesses and evidence to the ARB and failure to present the supervisors would end in a default.

In this country, you have a right to face all accusers and present all witnesses, and ANY exclusions of witnesses would NOT suffice as proof on the companies behalf.

In the event the supervisors involved did INDEED appear, on my direct examination, I would drill down as hard as I could to make the supervisor explain their actions, methods, company policies and his intended outcome when he made the offer to the employees involved.

I would establish clearly, that the impetus of dishonesty began with the supervisors who acting as agents of the company are paid to "instruct" the employees on a daily basis and more importantly, the employees have NO WAY of validating any claims by a supervisor at the moment of "dispatch". I would establish through direct examination that the action of the supervisor was intended on being dishonest to the company and this decision was made without the cooperation, planning or discussion with the employees beforehand.

If a situation arose, there are no numbers to call, no office to run to and explain it to somebody, and during the morning hours, the division manager is rarely around and access limited.

Moreover, employees dont have a routine of validating supervisors instructions on a daily basis.

I would drill down on the supervisors until it was clear that the offer or offers were the sole ideas of the agent of the company "paid" to make business decisions right or wrong on a daily basis. I would ask the supervisor(s) how they separated from the company (termination/resignation) and how long did that take before it happened vs how long did it take to terminate the employees.

When I would have each employee on the stand, I would ask them if they accepted the offer, I would ask them if they had a guaranteed 8 hours pay coming to them for the day, I would ask them if they "asked" the company agent to pay them jury duty vs an entitlement, I would ask them if they cared how they got paid as long as their 8 hours appeared on their paychecks. I would ask them if they were "personally" responsible for entering the coding on the computer in order to get paid. I would ask them if the supervisor who made the offer explained that it would be "dishonest" for them to accept this money coded as jury duty.

The company would cross examine, but my direct would pretty much eliminate any harm the company could place on them.

In summary, I would close by explaining that the supervisors under direct admitted that they or he made the decision to defraud the company out of a proper pay code and "they or he" acting unilaterally made an unjustified, illegitimate and unauthorized offer to the employees that placed them into great risk.

I would argue, that each employee involved has an expectation to be paid for 8 hours for the day (as guaranteed) and it didnt matter to the employees how it was coded as long as they were paid.

At the end of the day, I would win this case and restore all employees. If the supervisors did not answer to the supoena, it would end the case for the company before anyone ever hit the stand.

Dannyboy, this is outside the box thinking. No feelings involved.

Hope this helps you out, but I doubt it.

Peace.

 

[Dragon]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Dannyboy,

I laugh at most of what you say, not cause of its witty content, but its ignorance.

I can only assume that you have ZERO experience with the arbitration process.

Let me see if I can break it down a bit more to capture your attention span.

First, If I was handling this specific case, all the drivers involved would file a protest to the termination (grievance) hold a hearing at hub level. At this hearing, the company would have to produce all documents and witnesses to the Union.

I would seek an agreement based on the premise I presented before on this thread. If the company rejects it and maintains its position on the terminations, I would immediately file for arbitration on ALL cases involved. In my local, we have "local" arbitration and not national.

I serve the company on each case, and supoena each and every supervisor who authorized this coding on payroll.

The company MUST provide access to these supervisors as witnesses and NO ONE other than those involved can speak or testify for them at trial.

If these supervisors dont show up or answer to the supoena at trial, the company would lose the case from the jump.

The company's position is to provide all witnesses and evidence to the ARB and failure to present the supervisors would end in a default.

In this country, you have a right to face all accusers and present all witnesses, and ANY exclusions of witnesses would NOT suffice as proof on the companies behalf.

In the event the supervisors involved did INDEED appear, on my direct examination, I would drill down as hard as I could to make the supervisor explain their actions, methods, company policies and his intended outcome when he made the offer to the employees involved.

I would establish clearly, that the impetus of dishonesty began with the supervisors who acting as agents of the company are paid to "instruct" the employees on a daily basis and more importantly, the employees have NO WAY of validating any claims by a supervisor at the moment of "dispatch". I would establish through direct examination that the action of the supervisor was intended on being dishonest to the company and this decision was made without the cooperation, planning or discussion with the employees beforehand.

If a situation arose, there are no numbers to call, no office to run to and explain it to somebody, and during the morning hours, the division manager is rarely around and access limited.

Moreover, employees dont have a routine of validating supervisors instructions on a daily basis.

I would drill down on the supervisors until it was clear that the offer or offers were the sole ideas of the agent of the company "paid" to make business decisions right or wrong on a daily basis. I would ask the supervisor(s) how they separated from the company (termination/resignation) and how long did that take before it happened vs how long did it take to terminate the employees.

When I would have each employee on the stand, I would ask them if they accepted the offer, I would ask them if they had a guaranteed 8 hours pay coming to them for the day, I would ask them if they "asked" the company agent to pay them jury duty vs an entitlement, I would ask them if they cared how they got paid as long as their 8 hours appeared on their paychecks. I would ask them if they were "personally" responsible for entering the coding on the computer in order to get paid. I would ask them if the supervisor who made the offer explained that it would be "dishonest" for them to accept this money coded as jury duty.

The company would cross examine, but my direct would pretty much eliminate any harm the company could place on them.

In summary, I would close by explaining that the supervisors under direct admitted that they or he made the decision to defraud the company out of a proper pay code and "they or he" acting unilaterally made an unjustified, illegitimate and unauthorized offer to the employees that placed them into great risk.

I would argue, that each employee involved has an expectation to be paid for 8 hours for the day (as guaranteed) and it didnt matter to the employees how it was coded as long as they were paid.

At the end of the day, I would win this case and restore all employees. If the supervisors did not answer to the supoena, it would end the case for the company before anyone ever hit the stand.

Dannyboy, this is outside the box thinking. No feelings involved.

Hope this helps you out, but I doubt it.

Peace.

Thats a lot of " I would..." but stop to think for a moment, the company is not going to go at this with just a center manager and Labor Manager at the meeting...they may do some talking but I will bet there are a lot of other meetings prior to this...

They are just guilty...plain and simple.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Dannyboy, this is outside the box thinking. No feelings involved.

TOS, Adorne your strong shoulders with your cape, Japan has need of your services. I really dont know who has a bigger "I" complex, you or Integrity.

IT not only is outside the box thinking, it is outside of the realm of reality.

For all your vicious grilling of the sups, and all your coaching of the employees, what happens when on your first question to the sup, he supplies you with 14 slips of papers, each signed by the employees stating that they served.........After all, it is part of the paper trail that is needed to get paid for Jury duty.

Also, I have been through the process of arbitration more times than I care to count. And I have seen countless guys represent their union member just like you have outlined. Best I can remember, none ever won their cases.

Good luck, ya gonna need it.

d

 

[dangerman]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

it's been 16 full-time drivers, and 1 part-time air driver so far. rumor is there are 7-9 more going to be fired soon, but mgmt can't fire them yet until they move drivers around 804 to cover the center.

this is a high senority center in 43rd st, most guys have 20+ years, compared to the rest of 43rd which is much younger. i still can't believe all these guys bought into this scam and thought they would get away with it. lp is hungry over here, like vultures on the belt, scanning everything, looking for a missed scan or falsified records to fire drivers.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

it's been 16 full-time drivers, and 1 part-time air driver so far. rumor is there are 7-9 more going to be fired soon, but mgmt can't fire them yet until they move drivers around 804 to cover the center.

this is a high senority center in 43rd st, most guys have 20+ years, compared to the rest of 43rd which is much younger. i still can't believe all these guys bought into this scam and thought they would get away with it. lp is hungry over here, like vultures on the belt, scanning everything, looking for a missed scan or falsified records to fire drivers.

Out of curiousity, roughly how many drivers total in this building? And ctr?

 

[TUT]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

it's been 16 full-time drivers, and 1 part-time air driver so far. rumor is there are 7-9 more going to be fired soon, but mgmt can't fire them yet until they move drivers around 804 to cover the center.

this is a high senority center in 43rd st, most guys have 20+ years, compared to the rest of 43rd which is much younger. i still can't believe all these guys bought into this scam and thought they would get away with it. lp is hungry over here, like vultures on the belt, scanning everything, looking for a missed scan or falsified records to fire drivers.

Perhaps this was a plan by upper-management all along. I don't like the sound of this. It sounds like they just want to get rid of their drivers. Chain of command, did what the boss said... Talk to the boss.

 

[DS]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

Perhaps this was a plan by upper-management all along. I don't like the sound of this. It sounds like they just want to get rid of their drivers. Chain of command, did what the boss said... Talk to the boss.

Me neither,and the worst part is,one mistake,and your past record becomes an issue.If the new center manager is as much of prick as our current one is,fire him and let it go to arbitration.
It almost seems like they are over dispatching everyone in the hopes that they'll quit.Is there a bounty on seniority drivers?

 

[Ibt804Hammer]

it's been 16 full-time drivers, and 1 part-time air driver so far. rumor is there are 7-9 more going to be fired soon, but mgmt can't fire them yet until they move drivers around 804 to cover the center.

this is a high senority center in 43rd st, most guys have 20+ years, compared to the rest of 43rd which is much younger. i still can't believe all these guys bought into this scam and thought they would get away with it. lp is hungry over here, like vultures on the belt, scanning everything, looking for a missed scan or falsified records to fire drivers.

I heard some drivers were coming back with backpay. We shall see.....

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

What I fail to understand is how a large corporation can set up employees to fail in such a large number and it be allowed?

I understand dispatch, load quality and NDA commits - so forth- that type of idiocy happens daily and by the minute....but there are no legal or contractual terms involved other than perhaps some 9.5 language..

why isn't Article 37 invoked? Is coercing employees into doing the wrong thing ethical, moral, showing dignity and respect amongst employer-employee relations? Is this really a workplace where the employee can TRUST the employer to do the right thing? Has it ever been?

Are there any legal issues here?

NOT SAYING DRIVERS WERE NOT WRONG OR DESERVE JOBS BACK! Please, I don't want to hear it...again, just playing devils advocate.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

most guys have 20+ years, compared to the rest of 43rd which is much younger. i still can't believe all these guys bought into this scam and thought they would get away with it

I dont think the situation could be more clear. These guys bought into a scam, and thought they would get away with it. Not new employees either, they know the system. Does that really sound like a situation that they had no control over?

As far as the drivers claiming to be led or coerced astray, that excuse has been around since Adam and Eve, and we all know how that one turned out.

lp is hungry over here, like vultures on the belt, scanning everything, looking for a missed scan or falsified records to fire drivers.

Falsifying records is another firing offense. Missing a scan, not so much. But drivers that have problems with missing delivery scans seem to really have problems elsewhere as well. So it is a symptom of other possible wrong doings. Fudging delivery times is dishonest, regardless of the reason.

Bottom line, the job is not that complicated. Do it the way you are supposed to do it. Its when drivers go off the reservation doing things to make themselves look good, or trying to make the sup look better, that drivers get hung out to dry. Dont give up your integrity for anyone. The minute you start, its gone and so are you.

d

 

[Just Numbers]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

It will be interesting to find out what exactly happened when this whole thing is totally played out.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Re: If you're fired for Jury Duty paydo you collect Pension after 13-23 years of serv

congrats to everyone who did not "buy-in" and moves up in seniority!