Insubordination

Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by AZBrown, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. AZBrown

    AZBrown Teamster by choice

    I'm in my first year and trying to get the basics of the contract.
    We had an insubordination issue come up at work, where a worker was accused of it, and was told by the center manager that he could be terminated for that, but they didn't. They just sent him back to work.
    I found in article 28 where the 7 deadly sins are for immediate termination, and insubordination isn't one of them.
    Can anyone direct me to the part of the contract that deals with this?
     
  2. undies

    undies Active Member

    It can be used rather often, "are you going to work as directed or not?". Insubordination is pretty vague in my view and depends on how much the management hates you. I've gone off on some supervisors and they were cool about it, some...not so much, still was never threatened with insubordination.
     
  3. brown_trousers

    brown_trousers Active Member

    Insubordination would be tough to regulate in a contract. And it can really go both ways as to who would benefit from any insubordination rules, if they even exist.

    If it was made to be an un-punishable offense, then anyone could just completely disregard supervisor instruction all shift long with no consequences. And if it was allowed as a cardinal sin, it could be used by supervisors to manipulate employees.
     
  4. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    In our District anyway, you have to understand clearly what you are being directed to do and refuse to do it for that to be considered Insubordination. Generally 3 times refusing to specifically "work as directed" is considered Insubordination. However, in my experience this is an empty threat. You can refuse if it's contrary to law or endangers your or the Public's safety, and I have had both of those come up several times over my career with only paper terminations that never made it to Panel & no time or money lost. You don't even have to be ultimately right, just reasonable with your experience and knowledge at the time.

    What they will do is "put you out of service" for refusing to work as directed and the Supervisor will take over. Again, in my experience this leads to a big waste of time with lots of Management attempting to justify their actions but if your reasons are pure you will come through unscathed. Keep in mind your protections under the STAA in regards to Whistleblowing also.

    If it's just a typical Package blowout where the Sup is directing you to do something you don't want to do because it involves forced overtime etc, then your best course is just to do exactly what they are asking and no more (could that mean slowly?) asking for as much clarification as possible during the course of this because you are, after all, a dumb truck driver. Article 37 is generally where you are looking for.

    When a Supervisor has to pull out the "work as directed" line they are pretty much admitting failure at managing people. With Dumb A $ $ Dan running Labor right now there has been a lot o that going around.
    Lemme guess, was it Tichy?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2012
  5. brown_trousers

    brown_trousers Active Member

    I've seen it go both ways in my part-time days. A stubborn high school kid with no respect for authority use to provoke supervisors just for the fun of it, I would have loved to see that guy fired for insubordination!
     
  6. PiedmontSteward

    PiedmontSteward RTW-4-Less

    Unless it's an unsafe/unlawful order, we are instructed by the local to "work now, grieve later."

    Stewards cannot be disciplined over insubordination while acting in their role as steward, however they still must work as instructed as a rank-and-file bargaining unit member.
     
  7. AZBrown

    AZBrown Teamster by choice

    It wasn't a driver or safety issue, but this is a proven transfer, with plenty of good service and a good worker.
    As for your guess, this is way out on the west side, so none of those people.
     
  8. BigUnionGuy

    BigUnionGuy Got the T-Shirt

    Just a quick addition to that.... the consequences of refusing, have to be clearly explained.

    I don't know of any Union official, that would disagree with that.



    -Bug-
     
  9. AZBrown

    AZBrown Teamster by choice

    That seems to be the Teamsters battle cry in this day and age
     
  10. BigUnionGuy

    BigUnionGuy Got the T-Shirt

    It's good, you are already taking an interest. Some people never do.

    That is an industrial standard.... in any Union.... Not just the Teamsters.

    The other option is, too get taken out of service or discharged, and wait (sometime's for months)....

    While a group of Teamsters and company people (who don't know you) decide your fate.


    Work now and grieve later, means you are still getting a paycheck.... while the issue is resolved. Kind of smart.



    -Bug-