Iraq

[tieguy]

There is probably another point that needs to be made about this article despite the clear bias that is present. It attempts to lay blame solely on Bushs door step. If Bush truly deserves to be impeached for his leadership in bringing us into the war then every member of congress who reviewed the same intelligence and came to the same conclusion including your favorite liberals deserve the same punishment.

Moreluck you don't have to go to User Cp to change the color of your font all you have to do is click on the large black A in the top center of your message window as you type and select your color.

This has many of the same edit features found in word available on top of your message window.

 

[susiedriver]

Tie,

A few points.

1) John Mueller, the author of the article, is clearly not a political hack, nor is the publication Foriegn Affairs. Nowhere in the article does Mueller lay a case for impeachment. You belittle your entire case by making these accusations. Likewise with Brian Whitaker of the Guardian & al-bab.com &
Martin van Creveld, who is Dutch-Israeli, and lives in Jerusalem. He has written the The Art Of War (Smithsonian History of Warfare) and his credentials far outwiegh yours.

2) The war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with 'region building'. If anything the region has become de-stabilized. Less oil is being pumped today than four years ago, terrorist attacks have multiplied a hundred-fold. Iran has elected a theocratic right winger, and Syria has been emboldened enough to assassinate a foreign leader.

3) Nowhere did you address the failure of the Bush foreign policy, other than to say it's not so. You resort to name calling, which lessens any substance your thoughts may have had.

We can afford to play around with Iran and listen to their postering. while they export their brand of religion we will import the blue jeans , ipods and makeups that will eventually undermine their extremist regime. We in fact have a weapon much more powerfull than any nuc we have our western lifestyle. One the oppressed of the world learn to crave. Just ask the soviets. They lost an empire to it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you likening the fall of the Soviet Union to what you imagine our tact is in Iran? I'm not sure what we are importing into Iran, since we have trade sanctions against them. You may want to read this:
http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sanctions/t11iran.pdf

 

[susiedriver]

One more thing, tie. Do you know who the person co-ordinating the push for regional democracy in the Middle East is?
























































None other than the eminently unqualified Elizabeth Cheney, the vice president's daughter. She's doing a heck of a job!

 

[tieguy]

1) John Mueller, the author of the article, is clearly not a political hack, nor is the publication Foriegn Affairs. Nowhere in the article does Mueller lay a case for impeachment.

I don't mind answering some of your questions but you really are going to have to pay attention. There is a clear reference to impeaching Bush in the article raised by the the liberal foriegner and alleged war historian. I addressed that point by reminding you that any such accountability requires that every member of congress that reviewed the intelligence and voted for the war requires the same treatment.

 

[tieguy]

The war in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with 'region building'. If anything the region has become de-stabilized.

In fact it has everything to do with region building. Syria and Iran are held in check. Israel and the palestinians are actually progressing. Libya has actually started cooperating with us to garner our approval. Afghanistan is our and pakistan has become very helpfull. You and I cannot comment on the success because the press will not spend enough time reporting those. I do sense that you choose to ignore the successes for some reason?

Less oil is being pumped today than four years agoterrorist attacks have multiplied a hundred-fold. Iran has elected a theocratic right winger, and Syria has been emboldened enough to assassinate a foreign leader.

It appears you really don't understand the concept of region building every setback is not defeat. The area is progressing . Our troops have been doing a lot of good over there. An occasional assassination by syria does not constitute defeat. You really appear to trying to narrow your focus here. Some facets of this region building effort such as Irans theocracy collapsing into a democracy may take decades. Trying to rush the jury on this one won't answer the questions. A good region building effort will take a long time with slow progress and your occasional setbacks.

3) Nowhere did you address the failure of the Bush foreign policy, other than to say it's not so. You resort to name calling, which lessens any substance your thoughts may have had.

LOL, you're really something. Reread my post. Civil until the point you start using the expression neo-con. In fact you did not ask me to address any failures of Bushs foriegn policy. You asked me to read a link leading to an article with a very narrow focus of old tired dialogue which I easily squashed. I met the requirements of your request. When you post links and ask us to comment on them you limit the required response and should not expect us to expand beyond that analysis unless we choose to do so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you likening the fall of the Soviet Union to what you imagine our tact is in Iran?

This one seems to be causing you great difficulty. you raised the point on Europe I addressed it seperately from Iran. Iran is overblown as a threat. Iran is an influence in the region that point has to be recognized and handled diplomatically. At the same time we provide a western appeal that is very appealing to many of the younger Iranians who despise the oppressive leadership of the current theocracy. We and our western culture are as much a threat to Iran as they are to our efforts in Iraq. We will handle Iran with diplomacy because that is what the situation requires. I think all options including military are possible for syria. We have those options now where we did not before. Take a look at history. We park our troops where we sit fit to stabalize a part of the world. Korea is another example. Fairly stable area. If north korea wanted to make it appear things are getting worse all they would have to do is step up DMZ attacks against us. The press would then becme alarmist and state that conditions were worsening in that region. But in the end North Korea can talk all they want but they do not have the food or resources to fight a sustained war and would collapse quickly if they engaged us. The nuclear threat is limited. North Korea has limited means to produce the product required. We have the technology to liquidate those means anytime we feel North Korea is a threat. In reality North korea is a very containable threat. So as you look at the bits and pieces of the alleged foriegn policy failures you keep trying to raise you find that Bush is actually following the same general philosophy that we have followed for the last century and that the logic is sound. We tend to overstate the threat of other countries to the united states much like the republican guard was overstated as a threat to our troops. Time
will tell but at this point the logic is actually very sound.

[/quote]

 

[tieguy]

One more thing, tie. Do you know who the person co-ordinating the push for regional democracy in the Middle East is?
None other than the eminently unqualified Elizabeth Cheney, the vice president's daughter. She's doing a heck of a job!

Your point?

 

[tonyexpress]

Iraq: Misunderstood and distorted by most of the media

Here are some excerpts and a link to a story shedding some truth on Iraq.

The following is from Joe Lieberman a Democratic senator from Connecticut.

Our Troops Must Stay

America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.

BY JOE LIEBERMAN

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.

There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way toward a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern.

Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.

 

[susiedriver]

tony,
Did you catch Lieberman on Imus this morning?

Doesn't Lieberman have ties to AIPAC?

Have you read any blogs from our soldiers who are actually there, and not on some sanitized Senatorial tour? Talked to any Iraqis who have relatives over there?

You posting a Liebernman link would be akin to me posting a moveon.org link. Do you think there is a reason that Lieberman's opinions are the opposite of Murtha's?

 

[susiedriver]

tie,
I can post real facts till my fingers are nubs, and they wouldn't sway you a bit. You call me every name your little mind can think of, and object when I use the term 'Neo-Con'? What the hell do you think Bush's philosophy is? He's sure not conservative, he might be theocratic, but he definitely is pursuing Neo-Con agendas.

I can give you a rundown on how the 'area is progressing', but it would be wasted, your understanding of Mid East politics and your blind alliance to the emperor have addled your thinking. Here's a clue though, the Islamo-Facists have a firm grip on most of the Mid East. There is a reason that free elections have not been held in Egypt.

Luckily, your time, and that of those who think like you is almost over, unless 'Grecian Formula' George launches a nuclear attack somewhere, or a lets another jihadist strike the homeland.

Now if you could get off your rear and actually do some UPS work and get the stock above $80, I'll cash out and never be seen again on this board; so get to work, my little puppy.

 

[moreluck]

I like this from my home state..........


"The only Republican congressman who did not offer to have sex with John Murtha on the House floor was Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio. While debating Murtha's own proposal to withdraw American troops from Iraq in the middle of a war waged to depose a monstrous dictator who posed a threat to American national security, Schmidt made the indisputably true remark that Marines don't cut and run. (She was right! Murtha voted against his own proposal.)"

 

[quebec_driver]

I`ve read most of your threads on the pro`s and con`s of this conflict. wheter you like it or not US troops will be there for a while, and more deaths regretfully will continue, but complaining about it does nothing. I can`t be biais one way or the other, but this reminds me a lot like Vietnam, it was easy to get in but hard to get out...
I feel most for the troops in IRAQ, who will have to spend the Christmas season in IRAQ rather than with their families.

 

[over9five]

"get the stock above $80, I'll cash out and never be seen again on this board"

$77.90 today,
.

Susie WE WILL HOLD YOU TO THAT.

 

[susiedriver]

I like this from my home state..........


"The only Republican congressman who did not offer to have sex with John Murtha on the House floor was Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio. While debating Murtha's own proposal to withdraw American troops from Irag in the middle of a war waged to depose a monstrous dictator who posed a threat to American national security, Schmidt made the indisputably true remark that Marines don't cut and run. (She was right! Murtha voted against his own proposal.)"

Nice uniformed, untrue, racist comment. You realize Schmidt nearly was censured for her remarks, and later retracted them, don't you?

Here's the real resolutions, even you should be able to tell the difference:

Murtha's resolution:

Whereas Congress and the American People have not been shown clear, measurable progress toward establishment of stable and improving security in Iraq or of a stable and improving economy in Iraq, both of which are essential to "promote the emergence of a democratic government";
Whereas additional stabilization in Iraq by U, S. military forces cannot be achieved without the deployment of hundreds of thousands of additional U S. troops, which in turn cannot be achieved without a military draft;
Whereas more than $277 billion has been appropriated by the United States Congress to prosecute U.S. military action in Iraq and Afghanistan;
Whereas, as of the drafting of this resolution, 2,079 U.S. troops have been killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom;
Whereas U.S. forces have become the target of the insurgency,
Whereas, according to recent polls, over 80% of the Iraqi people want U.S. forces out of Iraq;
Whereas polls also indicate that 45% of the Iraqi people feel that the attacks on U.S. forces are justified;
Whereas, due to the foregoing, Congress finds it evident that continuing U.S. military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the people of Iraq, or the Persian Gulf Region, which were cited in Public Law 107-243 as justification for undertaking such action;
Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That:
Section 1. The deployment of United States forces in Iraq, by direction of Congress, is hereby terminated and the forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable date.
Section 2. A quick-reaction U.S. force and an over-the-horizon presence of U.S Marines shall be deployed in the region.
Section 3 The United States of America shall pursue security and stability in Iraq through diplomacy.



Republican Resolution (The one that was voted on):

RESOLUTION
Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that
the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately.
Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces
in Iraq be terminated immediately.

 

[susiedriver]

"get the stock above $80, I'll cash out and never be seen again on this board"

$77.90 today,
.

Susie WE WILL HOLD YOU TO THAT.

No Problem, you'll miss me more than me you

 

[moreluck]

"even you should be able to tell the difference:"

You know, lady, I am tired of you making comments to folks (me included) insinuating that we are dumb just because we don't happen to agree with you. Even Elvis said, "Don't Be Cruel".

I hope the stock hits $80 and you are on the next plane to Canada tomorrow. Put me back on ignore so my ignorance doesn't effect you.

Looking forward to missing you......NOT !!!!

 

[susiedriver]

I`ve read most of your threads on the pro`s and con`s of this conflict. wheter you like it or not US troops will be there for a while, and more deaths regretfully will continue, but complaining about it does nothing. I can`t be biais one way or the other, but this reminds me a lot like Vietnam, it was easy to get in but hard to get out...
I feel most for the troops in IRAQ, who will have to spend the Christmas season in IRAQ rather than with their families.

Probaly true QD, it would have been nice to have had a plan going in, or even have junior listen to his father, who knew better. Perhaps your new PM will get you involved as well

No season isd a good season for Americans in Iraq, as least it's cooler in the winter.

 

[susiedriver]

"even you should be able to tell the difference:"

You know, lady, I am tired of you making comments to folks (me included) insinuating that we are dumb just because we don't happen to agree with you. Even Elvis said, "Don't Be Cruel".

I hope the stock hits $80 and you are on the next plane to Canada tomorrow. Put me back on ignore so my ignorance doesn't effect you.

Looking forward to missing you......NOT !!!!

Why did you post lies?
You know, I've changed my mind, I'm staying for a long, long time. America is my home, and I intend to fight to keep it free. Why don't you quit posting on my threads, and put me on ignore? Why did you post racist a slur and highlight it?

 

[moreluck]

When I copied and pasted, the word Iraq came out that color. I backspaced on it and retyped it and it came out blue.....racial slur, my !!

 

[moreluck]

And another thing......these are not YOUR threads. This is a community and we all can post messages here as long as Cheryl allows us to. I'll post my comments wherever I choose, whenever I have something to add to the debate.

 

[tieguy]

Doesn't Lieberman have ties to AIPAC?

An effort to smear the reputation of lieberman because he disagrees with your point of view?

"Have you read any blogs from our soldiers who are actually there, and not on some sanitized Senatorial tour? Talked to any Iraqis who have relatives over there?"

No but I had the privledge of meeting some near our airport and buying them a few beers. Great people. Highly motivated. Proud of what they are accomplishing in Iraq.

You posting a Liebernman link would be akin to me posting a moveon.org link. Do you think there is a reason that Lieberman's opinions are the opposite of Murtha's

In comparison it would appear that Lieberman is much more successfull in life as a statesman speaking for our country. Lieberman being a democrat would tend to discount the association between him and anyone with alleged conservative views. Where the only question about you and moveon.org would be which one is the greater liberal con.