Home
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
Latest activity
Members
Current visitors
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Home
Forums
Brown Cafe UPS Forum
UPS Discussions
Is there anybody at the wheel at UPS that can pay attention to the real world?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="PobreCarlos" data-source="post: 543504" data-attributes="member: 16651"><p>Jon;</p><p> </p><p>I kinda' got a kick out of your maintaining that (1) such unilateral pay raises (under the terms "minimum only") would be allowed...and then (2) going on to enumerate in detail just why they would NOT be allowed. Interesting!</p><p> </p><p>In that vein, you were aware, weren't you, that when UPS DID try to implement a couple of things you mentioned - tuition reimbursement specifically comes to mind - they were NOT allowed to unilaterally do so? Or that they were forced to "negotiate" that "free gift" which you maintain they would NOT have had to negotiate?</p><p> </p><p>As for what consideration the Teamsters offer, you responded with "their labor" and "trade-offs and sometimes concessions". Tell me, do the Teamsters actually contract to PROVIDE the labor, regardless of situation, and does each and every member guarantee that they will be AVAILABLE to labor? If so, there are several times I can remember when I came up short drivers, and if Teamster labor was a "consideration", then they were definitely in violation of the contract, and the company deserved reimbursement. That the way you think it works? And since when have "concessions" and/or "trade-offs" - which exist solely as a RESULT of a contract - make for a contract CONSIDERATION? Guess if you can answer those question, then perhaps you can explain to me just what makes a union contract a TRUE contract? I.e. - a "meeting of the minds", with an exchange of tangible considerations, unforced by any third party. Be glad to hear it! Explain to me how a union negotiation is radically different from a "shake-down" of small shop owner with threats to break his windows if he doesn't sign; I'd be interested in understanding the fundamental difference. (BTW, the standard answer you're supposed to provide when asked what "consideration" the union provides is "labor peace"...at which time I would ask again just how that's fundamentally different from a "shake-down".)</p><p> </p><p>Beyond that, I'm not against "collective bargaining" in determining "market value" at all...I'm merely against COERCED collective "bargaining", as in the way you seem to be referencing with your "They are not a NLRB certified union and they are not your employees". Are you saying that labor unions (as collective bargaining units) can NOT exist outside of being "certified"? Or that they can ONLY be formed by employees? Or that because they ARE certified and they ARE employees, there's NO third party (governmental) coercion involved, and thus it is TRUE bargaining? That the employer can simply walk away and NOT negotiate, which, again, is the essence of any true "bargaining" environment. Which way do you plan to go with that one?</p><p> </p><p>As for how I would determine "market value"...well, isn't that obvious? "Market value" is whatever price the FREE, non-"synthesized" market will support. Don't think we need to be coy there. The fact that this country is in the shape it's in today is in large part due to the fact that many union members forgot that, eventually, they have to adhere in one fashion or another to true "market value" (i.e. - be cost-competitive on the world stage), or they're going to lose their jobs. And I would assume that, somewhere down the line, after losing 90% of the jobs in their once-core industry (LTL NMFA), the Teamsters would figure that out as well. So far, however, no joy in that regard; more Teamsters get kicked to the curb every day because they choose to deny their true worth. That's a shame.</p><p> </p><p>As for your comment that...</p><p> </p><p>"Why should shareholders vote on the wages, benefits, and working conditions of the bargaining unit? Shareholders don't vote on the wages, benefits, and working conditions of all the managers, supervisors, administrative, and technical employees."</p><p> </p><p>....well, all I've got to say to that is perhaps you ought to look into corporate governance a little closer. As a shareholder in various companies, I've voted on such wages, etc. on numerous occasions. And, to be honest, I'd like the chance to vote on union contracts as well. Perhaps we'll get there soon. (fully realizing that we've been inching in that direction at UPS ever since the "retirees revolt" and IPO of '99, the CSPF withdrawal being but one visible consequence).</p><p> </p><p>As for your claim that....</p><p> </p><p>"All paychecks are paid by our shipping customers through the monies they pay to ship packages. Management earns its share of that revenue; Labor earns its share. Each receives paychecks and benefits from the portion of revenues it earned"</p><p> </p><p>...I would submit that the paychecks are NOT "paid by OUR shipping customers", nor by management, but rather by the owners. And, while you're at it, the hourly employees of the company have only ONE customer; i.e. - only ONE client for their services....the employer. And I haven't noticed any of the COMPANY'S (not "ours", as in "yours and mine") customers rushing out to capitalize the hourly employees checks, either. Have you? In any event, I got news for ya' guy...it's the OWNERS that provide the payroll. You don't think so, then I suggest you find out what happens when they abandon ship. (hate to bring up GM again....but when the investors pull-out to the tune of a market capitalization of well over 70 billion dollars down to less than a half billion in a matter of months, I think one can see what happens)</p><p> </p><p>Finally, in terms of your "cool-aid" comment, and "Jim Jones" response, I kinda' expected as much . I suggest you do some research and see what the true brand name of "cool-aid" is, and then look into what powdered beverage was actually served-up at Jonestone (hint: the trademarked name of "FlaVor-Aid" might just pop-up.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="PobreCarlos, post: 543504, member: 16651"] Jon; I kinda' got a kick out of your maintaining that (1) such unilateral pay raises (under the terms "minimum only") would be allowed...and then (2) going on to enumerate in detail just why they would NOT be allowed. Interesting! In that vein, you were aware, weren't you, that when UPS DID try to implement a couple of things you mentioned - tuition reimbursement specifically comes to mind - they were NOT allowed to unilaterally do so? Or that they were forced to "negotiate" that "free gift" which you maintain they would NOT have had to negotiate? As for what consideration the Teamsters offer, you responded with "their labor" and "trade-offs and sometimes concessions". Tell me, do the Teamsters actually contract to PROVIDE the labor, regardless of situation, and does each and every member guarantee that they will be AVAILABLE to labor? If so, there are several times I can remember when I came up short drivers, and if Teamster labor was a "consideration", then they were definitely in violation of the contract, and the company deserved reimbursement. That the way you think it works? And since when have "concessions" and/or "trade-offs" - which exist solely as a RESULT of a contract - make for a contract CONSIDERATION? Guess if you can answer those question, then perhaps you can explain to me just what makes a union contract a TRUE contract? I.e. - a "meeting of the minds", with an exchange of tangible considerations, unforced by any third party. Be glad to hear it! Explain to me how a union negotiation is radically different from a "shake-down" of small shop owner with threats to break his windows if he doesn't sign; I'd be interested in understanding the fundamental difference. (BTW, the standard answer you're supposed to provide when asked what "consideration" the union provides is "labor peace"...at which time I would ask again just how that's fundamentally different from a "shake-down".) Beyond that, I'm not against "collective bargaining" in determining "market value" at all...I'm merely against COERCED collective "bargaining", as in the way you seem to be referencing with your "They are not a NLRB certified union and they are not your employees". Are you saying that labor unions (as collective bargaining units) can NOT exist outside of being "certified"? Or that they can ONLY be formed by employees? Or that because they ARE certified and they ARE employees, there's NO third party (governmental) coercion involved, and thus it is TRUE bargaining? That the employer can simply walk away and NOT negotiate, which, again, is the essence of any true "bargaining" environment. Which way do you plan to go with that one? As for how I would determine "market value"...well, isn't that obvious? "Market value" is whatever price the FREE, non-"synthesized" market will support. Don't think we need to be coy there. The fact that this country is in the shape it's in today is in large part due to the fact that many union members forgot that, eventually, they have to adhere in one fashion or another to true "market value" (i.e. - be cost-competitive on the world stage), or they're going to lose their jobs. And I would assume that, somewhere down the line, after losing 90% of the jobs in their once-core industry (LTL NMFA), the Teamsters would figure that out as well. So far, however, no joy in that regard; more Teamsters get kicked to the curb every day because they choose to deny their true worth. That's a shame. As for your comment that... "Why should shareholders vote on the wages, benefits, and working conditions of the bargaining unit? Shareholders don't vote on the wages, benefits, and working conditions of all the managers, supervisors, administrative, and technical employees." ....well, all I've got to say to that is perhaps you ought to look into corporate governance a little closer. As a shareholder in various companies, I've voted on such wages, etc. on numerous occasions. And, to be honest, I'd like the chance to vote on union contracts as well. Perhaps we'll get there soon. (fully realizing that we've been inching in that direction at UPS ever since the "retirees revolt" and IPO of '99, the CSPF withdrawal being but one visible consequence). As for your claim that.... "All paychecks are paid by our shipping customers through the monies they pay to ship packages. Management earns its share of that revenue; Labor earns its share. Each receives paychecks and benefits from the portion of revenues it earned" ...I would submit that the paychecks are NOT "paid by OUR shipping customers", nor by management, but rather by the owners. And, while you're at it, the hourly employees of the company have only ONE customer; i.e. - only ONE client for their services....the employer. And I haven't noticed any of the COMPANY'S (not "ours", as in "yours and mine") customers rushing out to capitalize the hourly employees checks, either. Have you? In any event, I got news for ya' guy...it's the OWNERS that provide the payroll. You don't think so, then I suggest you find out what happens when they abandon ship. (hate to bring up GM again....but when the investors pull-out to the tune of a market capitalization of well over 70 billion dollars down to less than a half billion in a matter of months, I think one can see what happens) Finally, in terms of your "cool-aid" comment, and "Jim Jones" response, I kinda' expected as much . I suggest you do some research and see what the true brand name of "cool-aid" is, and then look into what powdered beverage was actually served-up at Jonestone (hint: the trademarked name of "FlaVor-Aid" might just pop-up.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Home
Forums
Brown Cafe UPS Forum
UPS Discussions
Is there anybody at the wheel at UPS that can pay attention to the real world?
Top