Management (ERO) Early Retirement Offer

[Bubblehead]

Wow. Reading these posts I see no management employees that seem satisfied with their employment. Truth is that the only people managing are in the "corporate tower". The ones I deal with on a daily basis are better labeled facilitators.

Finally found a plane in which hourly and management are on common ground. We want out.

The climate that we operate under working for this company is nothing short of a shame. I don't believe it's always been this way but don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[pemanager]

I just went to UPSers.com and linked off to "Retirement Calculator".
If I retire at age 55 with 36 years I get much less than if I work to 60.
I not sure how you define "Full Benefits" but $$$ less a month is not insignificant.

Hoax,

A large part of the difference may be on a higher final salary.

 

[Myron]

I'm not all that crazy about that site that calculates your pension. I haven't found them to be all that accurate.
Have you had anyone run an actual estimate for you? You can get one run if you are within 36 months - so if you're at least 52 you can get one. You can get them to run the estimates with a couple of dates as well. The estimates they run are far more accurate than the one on upsers.com.

Yes Bubblehead, you are sadly right. NOW SMF0605, given your statement about figuring management pension benefits, you must be of the position to either care, or be afraid, or both. However if you keep standing idle, and have not done your own stroke count in your district or other districts and have not actually determined the actual root causes of employment issues in your district, by you yourself physically contacting the people in your district as to why they are leaving, on disability, or why they are voluntarily stepping down or what caused their forcible demotion if applicable, then you don’t fully understand the forbearance of corporate finance in the matters I speak of.

Given your response, to only the benefit aspects of my lengthy writing earlier, suggesting what I believe to be age discrimination as a cultural aspect of UPS then I would guess you likely are just reaching 20 years employment yourself and more than likely are just now beginning to understand fear as you approach or pass age 40. Please don’t act in disbelief of what you have not researched to be true. It would not surprise me if you yourself have wept in fear of the district manager or region manager you work for, or know others who have. It should NOT come with the territory. That is what UPS culturally has instilled in you. If ANY of what I have suggested hits home, then hopefully you become less fearful for yourself and braver for others and go a bit deeper into this. It isn’t like the company is going around saying “lets get rid of old people.” On the other hand, if you look closely, then you will see why I am disturbed.

 

[nobber]

Hoaxter is correct about management pension

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I'm not all that crazy about that site that calculates your pension. I haven't found them to be all that accurate.
Have you had anyone run an actual estimate for you? You can get one run if you are within 36 months - so if you're at least 52 you can get one. You can get them to run the estimates with a couple of dates as well. The estimates they run are far more accurate than the one on upsers.com.

I have been told that our local charges for this service but I still plan on having one as I get closer to retirement.

 

[Catatonic]

Hoax,

A large part of the difference may be on a higher final salary.

Good thought but I went back and made sure of what I put in.
The last day worked was the same and the % annual pay increase was 0%. Just changed the date I wanted retirement benefits to start. Still got the >$700 a month difference.
When I changed to work until age 60 and had 0% annual pay increase, the difference is ~$1450 / month.
When I changed to work until age 60 and had 2% annual pay increase, the difference is ~$1900 / month

 

[pemanager]

Good thought but I went back and made sure of what I put in.
The last day worked was the same and the % annual pay increase was 0%. Just changed the date I wanted retirement benefits to start. Still got the >$700 a month difference.
When I changed to work until age 60 and had 0% annual pay increase, the difference is ~$1450 / month.
When I changed to work until age 60 and had 2% annual pay increase, the difference is ~$1900 / month

Hoax,

To verify my recollection, I pulled out my SPD and for those grandfathered it says there is no reduction under the alternative formula and a 3% per year reduction prior to 60 for the integrated formula.
I remember when the website changed that the pension numbers were different from the previous app. I wonder if the program and the tools provided to HR are incorrect or if this one of those things that someone hopes you don't read the actual documentation and stand up for yourself. If you are fortunate enough to retire shortly let us know how it turns out and good luck.

P.S. - Thanks for making go in my house files and realize I need to spend a LOT of hours purging them.

 

[BrownBlackandBlue]

PLEASE GET A CLUE. EARLY RETIREMENT??? WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING? THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER WAYS TO SAVE MONEY!

Early retirement package? Why again? The game is set up for as many people as possible to NOT make at least partial retirement as possible AND it's getting worse. Remember, 55 is NOT full retirement. It is a partial benefit retirement with full healthcare.

It used to be, UPS saved enormous costs by losing people before they reached full retirement. Go ahead leave before 62 take your stock you have enough! They begged you.

Now the age is 55. I have seen so many uncomfortable moves made to people when they reach 54 to 56 years of age it would make your head spin.

There are many age related savings UPS has been successful in adapting without a whimper of lawsuit. Who in their right mind would take UPS on?
They only promote people in their 30's and only hire people in their 20's. Please wake up and take a look around. Do your own stroke count!!

Take a look at how old the people are who are demoted, Take a look at who replaces the demoted individual if you can see through the 3 or 4 way move and swaps that invariably means a promotion for a 20 or early 30 something. Take a look at who are the ones that are out on stress and anxiety disability or worse. Over 40? I know the answer.

Make note which ones are quitting. Note how old the people are that are being moved without being promoted and then note who is being moved AND promoted!

Yes many younger management are leaving, but guess what? If it's a 50/50 split UPS does not have anything to worry about when it comes to EEOC and reaps the benefit of putting another less costly employee in place of hopefully not reaching even a partial retirement!

Do you really truly believe the pressure coming from above is accidental or not planned? Here's an idea, lets combine jobs and ask that the same work gets done. No one will have a clue it is designed to get as many older management to fall as possible....unless someone is smart enough to look (normally only the managment out west are smart enough to look and NOT BE AFRAID).

Lets make the manager run the local sort and preload but not provide any more resources, maybe even take some away!! This started in the south (I have record from Selma, Alabama. The sups were given a driver line of 30 and the local sort.) The older employee leaving is BONUS!

Performance problem? Integrity matters? Guaranteed a factor....but isn't it odd the number of integrity and performance issues seem to multiply as you are overworked, humiliated or berated? Why so many over 40's with this malady?

Hmmmm....now do your homework. I guarantee you will see a trend that no one is looking at but the people who account for cost from retirees and older management.

I think you need to do your own evaluations about the ERO and what the REAL package is.

Myron

First of all, how can you twist being able to retire comfortably at age 55 into a bad thing?
Second, the past practice has been to give more senior management people easier assignments (anything not in operations) later in their career. It apperars to me that they look at their cushy staff job and say to themselves, "I can do this for a few more years and pad my retirement". Instead, they get placed back into operations, which is not discriminating, and do not want to actually work that hard again, so they retire instead. It seems fair to me. Give some other 50-55 year olds a couple years out of operations at the end of their careers.

 

[jag_6819]

How reliable to you think your source of this inforamtion might be? Just my thought - Taken indivudially, the two issues, i. e., (1) offer to 52 yr olds with 20 yrs service, and (2) raising retirement age to 60, may make sense, but taken together, if done at the same time, would seem counter productive. They know how many 52 yr olds with 20 yrs service, so based on past EROs, they should know approximately how many people would take the offer. But by raising the retirement age, seems like they would be giving up the natural attritution "weeding out". But, who knows what mgmt is thinking!!!

I would be happy with an offer to 50 yr olds with 15 years experience. Then I wouldn't care about the retirement age!!!

I have to agree, by that logic all 45-50 year olds will now be working for FIFTEEN years to reach retirement. That puts UPS in a bad way when that mgt employee is like 56,57,or 58. Chances are they will have 25+ years and forced to wait it out till 60. I suspect lawsuits will be flying at UPS if they try to get rid of a mgt person with 25+ years that is trying to perform an operations job at 58 years old! regardless of whether that employee is even marginally effective.

 

[Myron]

First of all, how can you twist being able to retire comfortably at age 55 into a bad thing?
Second, the past practice has been to give more senior management people easier assignments (anything not in operations) later in their career. It apperars to me that they look at their cushy staff job and say to themselves, "I can do this for a few more years and pad my retirement". Instead, they get placed back into operations, which is not discriminating, and do not want to actually work that hard again, so they retire instead. It seems fair to me. Give some other 50-55 year olds a couple years out of operations at the end of their careers.

Dear Brownblackandblue,

It is not a bad thing to be able to retire at age 55. That is not what I am implying. What I am saying is; it has become increasingly hard to make it to age 55, the age partial retirement starts for management. For those trying to work to get the full pension benefit it has become doubly as hard.

The reason? I have seen disproportionate numbers of people in their 40's and 50's versus those in their 30's and younger 1) Going on stress or anxiety related disability/comp 2) being demoted (normally managers-voluntarily or forcibly) 3) resigning

This is typically done by staff level managers and lower being put into situations where they cannot be successful-forcing 1 through 3 above. The attrition rate for the over 40 crowd far exceeds the younger than 40 group. I have also seen a seeming step up by security in investigations of the over 40 group.

Call me cynical, whatever; but I am pretty well connected across my region as I have worked in a variety of capacities and have seen these patterns repeated over and over and over. It cannot be by coincidence.

That is why I am urging you to look in your district or region for yourself. From my end I could give a rip; I see the game. However, you might be glad you looked.

In terms of discrimination, there is only really one way UPS can actually save money. Keep as many people from reaching partial or full retirement as possible. It's not like they are running around saying, "We need to get rid of old people".

On the other hand I have heard this exact statement made....We need to convince Gary to retire. If that isn't indicative of a cultural mode of thinking regarding age, than nothing is. And let's face it. THERE ARE WAYS TO GET RID OF PEOPLE!

Please note for yourself, management who are demoted, on disability, or recently resigned. I will tell you without question they are replaced by younger people in most every instance...many in a 3 way type swap action.

I believe we haven't seen much mentioned about this because when it happens, the person it happens to is so fearful they standby and let it occur. I mean I think I read that the average settlement is like $250,000. THAT'S NOTHING! Why rock the boat???

If UPS pays a $250,000 settlement, they make out on it!!! They prolong a pension payout to a younger employee and they are liabile for a KNOWN AMOUNT FOR A KNOWN PERIOD OF TIME, not $60,000+ benefits until someone dies! Savvy?

Who in their right mind; as they approach retirement, would take UPS on over this? NO ONE!! UPS is not lowering OR RAISING the retirement age, they are creating managment attrition as fast as they can.

 

[Hawaii50]

Dear Brownblackandblue,

It is not a bad thing to be able to retire at age 55. That is not what I am implying. What I am saying is; it has become increasingly hard to make it to age 55, the age partial retirement starts for management. For those trying to work to get the full pension benefit it has become doubly as hard.

The reason? I have seen disproportionate numbers of people in their 40's and 50's versus those in their 30's and younger 1) Going on stress or anxiety related disability/comp 2) being demoted (normally managers-voluntarily or forcibly) 3) resigning

This is typically done by staff level managers and lower being put into situations where they cannot be successful-forcing 1 through 3 above. The attrition rate for the over 40 crowd far exceeds the younger than 40 group. I have also seen a seeming step up by security in investigations of the over 40 group.

Call me cynical, whatever; but I am pretty well connected across my region as I have worked in a variety of capacities and have seen these patterns repeated over and over and over. It cannot be by coincidence.

That is why I am urging you to look in your district or region for yourself. From my end I could give a rip; I see the game. However, you might be glad you looked.

In terms of discrimination, there is only really one way UPS can actually save money. Keep as many people from reaching partial or full retirement as possible. It's not like they are running around saying, "We need to get rid of old people".

On the other hand I have heard this exact statement made....We need to convince Gary to retire. If that isn't indicative of a cultural mode of thinking regarding age, than nothing is. And let's face it. THERE ARE WAYS TO GET RID OF PEOPLE!

Please note for yourself, management who are demoted, on disability, or recently resigned. I will tell you without question they are replaced by younger people in most every instance...many in a 3 way type swap action.

I believe we haven't seen much mentioned about this because when it happens, the person it happens to is so fearful they standby and let it occur. I mean I think I read that the average settlement is like $250,000. THAT'S NOTHING! Why rock the boat???

If UPS pays a $250,000 settlement, they make out on it!!! They prolong a pension payout to a younger employee and they are liabile for a KNOWN AMOUNT FOR A KNOWN PERIOD OF TIME, not $60,000+ benefits until someone dies! Savvy?

Who in their right mind; as they approach retirement, would take UPS on over this? NO ONE!! UPS is not lowering OR RAISING the retirement age, they are creating managment attrition as fast as they can.

This is very accurate observation.

 

[BrownBlackandBlue]

Dear Myron,
I think the pressure has increased tremendously on everyone in operations. I don't think I agree that it has disproportionatley increased on the elderly. We have lost a lot of management in our district this year, of all ages. I will agree that it is the older management that go on disability for stress, but that could be because they are less inclined to just leave because they have so much invested in UPS. I agree that UPS has a problem in this area and that it is worse than it was, but I don't think it is a coordinated effort to oust certain demographics of people. I think we are an equal opportunity pressure cooker.

 

[Myron]

Dear Myron,
I think the pressure has increased tremendously on everyone in operations. I don't think I agree that it has disproportionatley increased on the elderly. We have lost a lot of management in our district this year, of all ages. I will agree that it is the older management that go on disability for stress, but that could be because they are less inclined to just leave because they have so much invested in UPS. I agree that UPS has a problem in this area and that it is worse than it was, but I don't think it is a coordinated effort to oust certain demographics of people. I think we are an equal opportunity pressure cooker.

Perhaps an equal opportunity pressure cooker. On the other hand patterns and practices sure are strange. I mean why no over 30 drivers hired off street? Only feeders. Why 90% under 25 hires? Why only outside mangement hires younger than 30? Why so many under 40 promotions?

I know a guy who has worked as a division manager for 5 years off and on...he is 54. Very capable. He is constantly being asked to fill in as a division manager for months on end. They have promoted 5 division managers in the same time. All younger. 4 of them under 40. I don't get it.

I have not seen an over 40 person promoted and relocated out of the district in 21 years of management.

I did a stroke count of demoted managers (voluntary and forced), termed managers (who knows why-it's not always what you hear), termed sups (same), disabled managers and supervisors over the last 10 years. I then determined how old each replacement was. The numbers were astounding; they were far different than the internal demographics would suggest.

How did I do this? I used an old HR list for the district. They used to be available readily. Now much trickier to obtain. Why so hard to obtain now? Is it that way where you are? If you have an old one...don't lose it.

70% or so of UPS FT managers and supervisors are above 40, 30% under. (This is from Indiana) You would think the numbers of termed, demoted and disabled would be similar; they are not. Additionally, the numbers of promoted individuals to two unit and division manager levels also favors the under 40 crowd; 85% of the replacements are under 40, all are younger.

If discrimination is going on in any area; it is age related. If it is not a focused effort, the patterns certainly don't suggest this. My friends in the south and up north in Michigan and Wisconsin sure see it as well.

Please until you know for sure in your district; I urge you to find out for yourself. Don't say "you think".....please come to me and say "you know". It is important enough of a matter for all of us. My numbers are excellent; but people don't want to talk about it, and I know why. They are scared.

LAST NOTE: You state that the pressure has increased tremendously on everyone in operations. I wonder where the largest component of over 40's exists at UPS?

Happy New Year BB&B

 

[trplnkl]

Myron, I don't dispute you numbers and I'm sure there is a point....somewhere. What is the end result of your searching? An Age Discrimination Law Suit? A public expose' of UPS's unfair labor practices in management? OR do you just want to stick your finger in someones eye and wiggle it?

 

[trickpony1]

Myron, I don't dispute you numbers and I'm sure there is a point....somewhere. What is the end result of your searching? An Age Discrimination Law Suit? A public expose' of UPS's unfair labor practices in management? OR do you just want to stick your finger in someones eye and wiggle it?

trplnkl-
You seem to have had a blessed existance with "our" company......some of us haven't.
I seriously doubt the "finger in the eye" would benefit Myron or anyone.
At some point, perhaps, the age issue may affect you in terms of being disqualified from your driving position, either feeders or package car, due not to your true health but because the company is afraid you "might" file comp in the future.
I know of one district where the company nurse instructed the company doctor to disqualify a feeder driver.
It could very well happen to you.
Good Luck.

 

[upsdude]

trplnkl-
You seem to have had a blessed existance with "our" company......some of us haven't.
I seriously doubt the "finger in the eye" would benefit Myron or anyone.
At some point, perhaps, the age issue may affect you in terms of being disqualified from your driving position, either feeders or package car, due not to your true health but because the company is afraid you "might" file comp in the future.
I know of one district where the company nurse instructed the company doctor to disqualify a feeder driver.
It could very well happen to you.
Good Luck.

Trick,

trplnkl is asking a legit question, now what? Is Myron going to say oh well and walk away? I really think Myron, trplnkl, trickpony, and maybe me are on the same page here.

I really see this as an issue that senior hourly and management could unite on and take action.

 

[trickpony1]

Trick,

trplnkl is asking a legit question, now what? Is Myron going to say oh well and walk away? I really think Myron, trplnkl, trickpony, and maybe me are on the same page here.

I really see this as an issue that senior hourly and management could unite on and take action.

I agree completely.
Perhaps Myron was just trying to bring it to the forefront and make everyone aware.
Myron brings up some very good points.

To use a theme song from a popular law enforcement show:
"whatcha gonna do when they come for you"

or, for the more literary BC members, another quote:
".....and when they came for me there was no one left to speak out for me".

Martin Niemoller, author.

google it....you might actually learn something.

 

[trplnkl]

Thank you UPSDude, yes I was asking a serious question followed by a non-sensible very hypothetical reaction.(a joke)
I really wanted to know if there were, in deed, a goal to the posts other than stirring up folks. Mind you sometimes folks need to be stirred up to get action.
Other than documenting the things Myron has been talking about for legal purposes, I fail to see any use. OK, maybe just being aware of what is happening may keep one from being blindsided and that I suppose is of good use.
And Trick: "I seriously doubt the "finger in the eye" would benefit Myron or anyone."
you might be surprised on how much satisfaction could be gained with this technique.
also, you said :

I know of one district where the company nurse instructed the company doctor to disqualify a feeder driver.
It could very well happen to you

.
you say you KNOW this to be a fact? If this can be proven, there is one (possibly two) huge law suit just waiting on a lawyer to take hold and run.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe this could and probably does happen, but one doesn't have to just take it and lay down.

 

[trickpony1]

trplnkl-
yes I do know this for a fact. I have the court case number and I know someone with the transcript from a deposition.
Guess what? the feeder driver lost the case but, guess what else? the company was nice enough to let him work in the hub at all ungodly hours of the night (and with a $30,000 a year cut in earnings) until he gets his retirement.
Wasn't that sweet!

"....but one doesn't have to just take it and lay down". What would you suggest the affected feeder driver or anyone else do, short of civil insurrection?

I agaree with Myron completely.
Racial discrimnation won't save the company money.
Sexual discrimination won't either.

Handicap/age related discrimation WILL save the company money because, somewhere down the road, the company can hire a cheaper employee (with one week of vacation instead of six) to replace the employee that was forced/pressured/coerced in resigning (or was fired).

As a group, we are all getting older......the company doesn't care about us.
We better wake up and smell the roses (and maybe read the writing on the wall).

 

[trplnkl]

trplnkl-
yes I do know this for a fact. I have the court case number and I know someone with the transcript from a deposition.
Guess what? the feeder driver lost the case but, guess what else? the company was nice enough to let him work in the hub at all ungodly hours of the night (and with a $30,000 a year cut in earnings) until he gets his retirement.
Wasn't that sweet!

"....but one doesn't have to just take it and lay down". What would you suggest the affected feeder driver or anyone else do, short of civil insurrection?

I agaree with Myron completely.
Racial discrimnation won't save the company money.
Sexual discrimination won't either.

Handicap/age related discrimation WILL save the company money because, somewhere down the road, the company can hire a cheaper employee (with one week of vacation instead of six) to replace the employee that was forced/pressured/coerced in resigning (or was fired).

As a group, we are all getting older......the company doesn't care about us.
We better wake up and smell the roses (and maybe read the writing on the wall).

Well, since it went to court and the feeder driver lost, he must not have been able to prove that his disqualification was because the company nurse and the Doc were conspiring to have him disqualified. I'm pretty sure that would be illegal. Well, unless the driver was in fact unfit to drive, in which case he should have been disqualified. Surely the company Doc was not the only one that examined this guy?
And NO, that isn't sweet, but it is however better than nothing.
How long before his retirement was he? What did they use as an excuse to DQ him?