Management in Browns

[tieguy]

He went by the contract. When that extra work causes me to file a 9.5 grievance then I too am following the contract.

Curious . how do you win a 9.5 grievance when you don't recognize any performance standards? So if the company dispatchs you with 200 stops and they believe you should be able to complete it in 8 hours and you took 10 hours how do you deny you were out there over dispatched since you have no performance standard to use?

 

[tieguy]

He went by the contract. When that extra work causes me to file a 9.5 grievance then I too am following the contract.

which highlights the differences we have between us and fdx. Fdx is paid by the package and tries to get as many as they can on their truck while you try to file grievances to keep if off your truck.

Its probably a great example why union membership continues to decline.

 

[RockyRogue]

Fdx is paid by the package and tries to get as many as they can on their truck while you try to file grievances to keep if off your truck.

Tie, I think we might actually disagree for the first time. I'm not saying drivers don't need to be kept busy. Quite the contrary, I think they do! That having been said, when do you--as a member of management--say enough is enough of working these guys 10, 11, 12+ hours a day?? I worked with a couple great drivers in Denver last year. They weren't ones to complain about working. Quite the contrary, one said he liked the overtime--wife, kids, car payments, mortgage, etc, etc. He had his family's budget built around 45-50 hour weeks. He didn't grieve for excessive overtime unless he was physically exhausted from 60 hour weeks for a month or whatever it was straight. I guess my problem here is that the only way UPS drivers can reduce their work is to file over 9.5 grievances. When they're worked 60 hours a week for say 6 or 8 weeks straight when its supposed to be 'slow,' I can't blame them for being upset. What do you propose to fix this problem?? I'm really curious. My undergrad degree is in Arts and Humanities. My graduate degree is a professional degree but I don't have the knowledge or experience to come up with a solution, which is why I ask this question. Anybody have any suggestions??? -Rocky

 

[govols019]

Curious . how do you win a 9.5 grievance when you don't recognize any performance standards? So if the company dispatchs you with 200 stops and they believe you should be able to complete it in 8 hours and you took 10 hours how do you deny you were out there over dispatched since you have no performance standard to use?

What the computer says a planned day is has no weight in a 9.5 grievance. You know that.

If we going into a grievance hearing with me having worked excessive over 9.5 days and your defense is the OR saying the route should have been in run in 8.9 I win. Every time.

 

[govols019]

which highlights the differences we have between us and fdx. Fdx is paid by the package and tries to get as many as they can on their truck while you try to file grievances to keep if off your truck.

Its probably a great example why union membership continues to decline.

That doesn't even make sense. Just because FDX Ground gets paid by the package doesn't mean he can make businesses stay open later.

FDX Ground also has the option of not going to certain out of the way areas until they have enough stops to justify going out there. They will also use the USPS to mail certain far out stops to the final destination. It's cheaper for them to do that because they lose money on driving out there.

Those are just a couple of examples of why we are better than they will ever be. We as UPS drivers still believe in the golden rule. Service to the customer comes first.

 

[tritese]

I agree sups working is just covering up the real issues.........sups working is an everyday occurence in our hub........my full time sup on the night sort told my part time sup that he didn't have enough scans, what kind of crap is that?!! these kids i work with in the hub think it is his job as he does it so much.......i have told him once he is tired of working i would solve the problem for him.......after all, how in the world can he run his area if he is in a trailer loading.......we will be blown up and he won't even know.......hire more teamsters!

 

[705red]

This is precisely what high seniority hourlies attempt to tell new supervisors to confuse them. They generally hope the supervisor hasn't read the contract (and I suggest a supervisor should read it as often as the stewards do). Unless there's a supplement in 705red's area that's different than where I am, there IS a provision in the contract for management working. The bar it sets is pretty high, you have to be able to show that no hourly within 1 hour of the building was available to perform the job, but it's there.

The steward I described in an earlier post said exactly those words above, then filed, then the union lost the grievance at arbitration. Moreover, he tried to instruct ME to quit working. I told him I would have to respectfully decline his request, and for 10 seconds he actually didn't know what to say. Apparently the supervisors in that building did whatever he said...

Anyhow, this is the type of attitude that prevents labor and management from working together better. I see the multiple posts about how certain individuals in management act inappropriately, and I deplore it. But there's quite a bit of unnecessary flak going the other way and let's not pretend there isn't.

Yes sir you are right on that. Here in chicago both locals that cover ups have seperate contracts from the national. Here in 705s contract it states that sups will not work, and it also states that they must exhaust all efforts calling in double shifters, vacationers etc. Now we all know that ups will never go above and beyond yo het that work covered with a union memeber. They will use a sup and hope they get away with it. I once had a manager tell me that i have 50 plus p-time sups and your only giving me a grievance for 4 of them working. I can promise you he ate those words real quick, we now randomly sweep the shift with stewards and some agents from time to time and now in the last year he has paid over $15,000 in sups working. Everyday i make it a point to walk past him and smile.

 

[BROWNDAWG]

Curious . how do you win a 9.5 grievance when you don't recognize any performance standards? So if the company dispatchs you with 200 stops and they believe you should be able to complete it in 8 hours and you took 10 hours how do you deny you were out there over dispatched since you have no performance standard to use?

union doesnt recognize production standards. we win grievances by the number of excessive hours we were forced to work.

 

[705red]

Curious . how do you win a 9.5 grievance when you don't recognize any performance standards? So if the company dispatchs you with 200 stops and they believe you should be able to complete it in 8 hours and you took 10 hours how do you deny you were out there over dispatched since you have no performance standard to use?

Fair days work for a fair days pay! How can we recognize something that we have no say so in?

 

[705red]

which highlights the differences we have between us and fdx. Fdx is paid by the package and tries to get as many as they can on their truck while you try to file grievances to keep if off your truck.

Its probably a great example why union membership continues to decline.

You said it all. They all get equal pay for stop and piece, it all balances itself out. Its not like our bonus were its only given to the chosen ones.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Explain in more detail. Why won't it work? Is your whole paragraph about your center only? Our are you speaking "Nationally" about the problem?

For filing on sups working with the hope that it will force them to create more full-time driver positions....I was talking about my building but I have no doubt that it probably fails in other buildings as well. We've been trying to get more drivers added for a very long time.

For PAS/EDD I was referring to the fact that there have been so many complaints on here, as well as from drivers that are friends and relatives of mine in other areas, about exactly how effective the system is. Once I got a taste of it for myself it didn't take me long to see exactly what people were talking about.

I wish I was wrong about both because if I was then I'd be full-time now and more drivers would be praising PAS/EDD than bashing it.

 

[upsgrunt]

Is it possible that it is cheaper for UPS to just pay the grievances than to put on more drivers? It just crossed my mind that it just might be the case. It would explain the fact that the company so reluctantly hires more help. If this is the case, then the union needs to get it changed so it would be cheaper for UPS to hire more help than to pay grievances. Seems like that's the only way UPS listens is when they have to reach for their checkbook.

 

[RockyRogue]

Is it possible that it is cheaper for UPS to just pay the grievances than to put on more drivers? If this is the case, then the union needs to get it changed so it would be cheaper for UPS to hire more help than to pay grievances. Seems like that's the only way UPS listens is when they have to reach for their checkbook.

Its very likely to be cheaper to pay the grievances than hire more drivers. Think of it this way: a supe/manager works 5 drivers for 11 hours in one day. Instead of having to pay union benefits (H&W, retirement, etc), package car, DIAD, etc, etc you pay just five people. Lets say just one of those drivers grieves and wins. The manager is getting a h*lluva deal! Getting this mindset changed is going to be a long road, Grunt. Its the way UPS has thought for 100 years. Hitting a company in the pocketbook is sometimes the only way to win change. -Rocky

 

[area43]

Curious . how do you win a 9.5 grievance when you don't recognize any performance standards? So if the company dispatchs you with 200 stops and they believe you should be able to complete it in 8 hours and you took 10 hours how do you deny you were out there over dispatched since you have no performance standard to use?

Tie, I was glad you hit on the standards issues. By who's standards are you referring tooo. UPS's standards. The standards that have no Teamsters input. Standards that are often tainted and falsely skewed to the companies advantage. Why dosen't UPS be fair and let an outside, un bias, third party handle them????? Strange how UPS conducts the standards. Its just like the BCS computer ratings for who's going to play in the college bowl football games. UPSers, UPS just loves to twik, twik, twik the standards to their advantage. Standards, Ahhh Phoooey!!!!! I'll put it to you another way. Lets say one NFL football team makes all the rules up for the NFL. Well, dont you think that team is going to maybe, just maybe set the rules up to their advantage. That is what UPS exactly does in making up these so called skewed standards. Tie, tell me something. Were you ever a driver? If so, how long did you drive? I believe Jim Casey would like to know? Tell me, honestly, Were you over or under? How many stops? Pkgs? Pick ups? Pieces? Heavy weights? Sales leads? Internationals? NDA? What were your stats? It appears you are a blind loyalist.

 

[area43]

Its not always retaliation.
Supervisors that don't follow the rules of the contract probably don't follow all rules that apply to doing their job like supervising their people. So a grievance may result in pissing the sup off where he actually starts doing his job and holding his people accountable for the job they do. His people then view this as the sup retaliating. His drivers want to dictate the set of rules the sup will follow. They want to hold him accountable to the contract but they don't want him to hold them accountable for the job they do.

If a driver files on a sup running a route and the sup then splits the route out and adds work to the drivers did he retaliate or did he abide by the contract?

Wow!!!! Incredible. Let me first go with the bottom paragraph. Who made up the 9/5 rule. I believe it was UPS. Yes, they claim it was because they had a big heart and wanted us to be with our little families,but in actuality it was to save money on OT. Remember, "Going Public". Jim Casey would have been against it. Greed folks. I will use the quote from ol Tie Guy himself on the sup running the route, "Otherwise, file away". Do you remember that Tie? Or are you like most sups with that selective memory?

Tie, likes to refer to the contract in this post. Ok, here we go. Tie your beef is not with us Teamsters. Its with your "No Balls" UPS national negiotating committee. They agreed to everything in the contract. If they didn't like certian or all parts of the contract do not sign on the line. Send us Teamsters out to the picket line,but thats not how they the Brass works). What about all that stock they have stocked piled? They manipulate the stock price. One of their own sups told me this. Tie the center manager and sups are talking. Their pissed. They are smart enough to know there is no Job security whatsoever at UPS. That's unless they are a feeder supervisor and by the way folks in our center they got rid of the feeder sup just after the stock offering. They delegated(spread) the duties to the del sups. Just another cut throat measure by the upper brass. Oh back to why they wont send us packing. Stocks!!! Bunches of Stocks riding on this. The Brass could lose selfish millions. Again, Jim Casey, would be rolling over in his grave.

The center manager and sups are to set the good example. The higher standard. Yeah right. They do this by going back on their word. They also eat their own. A sup that was a driver for 16 years and than a del sup for another 16 years was fired. What a joke. This guy trained me back in 88 when I became a driver. He was great. He was loved by all in our center. Those that are sups now don't think that they won't do the same to you. They will. What have you done for me lately. Thats their motto. This sup did bleed brown. 32 years. Incredible. Gone. I saw him a walmart a couple years ago. Delivering bread. Great attitude. Happy. No resentment. You ask what he was fired for. He did nothing more then what the others do. He did not play golf. Maybe thats what his problem was. Didn't kiss enough ass or the right ass. Jim would have been totally pissed. By the way he works for fedex now. Also I heard he had heart by pass surgery. The guy grew up in the projects. A true life sucess story. Worked his butt off and than just got crapped on.......

 

[area43]

I am human folks, but thats no excuse. I deeply regret the last two posts. I wrote those posts in anger. Ah yes anger. When you do something in anger your reasoning or the consequences of your actions usually take a back set. I mean a way back seat. I let things fly. I went back to my old confrontational self. I again apologize to the members and non members of this site. Tie, I espcially want to apologize to you. Believe it or not I do have a great respect for you. I crossed the line that I have drawn in the sand to how far I should go. UPSers, I just want to say this. We can disagree, but there is a right way in presenting your arguements and a wrong way. As I have said before I have gone the confrontational approach and very little gets done. The hate builds. I do not like it. Non-Confrontational builds trust and forgiveness. I have found that out with the center manager and sups. They will confide in you. Even though you are not one of their own. I will use the word, purge. They are fearful of purging up stream due to the fact they might say the wrong thing or piss off the wrong person and be out the door. They have no backing. I honestly try and help them out. I have my experience to rely on. Our center manager is younger than me. He at times will ask me what he should do at times. I am sometimes, lets say and I don't want to get mushy here. Flattered or feel important. I truely want to help hourlies as well as mgt. I believe that is why I was put on this earth. Too help people in general.

UPSers, I strongly feel we must not lose focus on who the real enemy is. That is the competition. As Diadlover mentioned in his Mad Lib thread. Fedex is one of the real enemies. Lets not forget that. So, all you hard core Teamsters you can call me a Puss all you want. LOL It dosen't really matter. The great Jim Casey, I believe would want us to try and work things out in a more peaceful manner. Its ok to admit your wrong. I find it is a whole lot healthier. No use carrying around all that extra baggage. Why shoot, the plane just might not get off the ground. Well, I think I'll close on that. area 43 out

 

[[email protected]]

Wow! You are comparing robbing a bank to handling a pkg?!? OUCH.

 

[area43]

First welcome to the Brown Cafe. Second are you in mgt or hourly. I assume you are in mgt. God help us.

I'll call you metal. ( I mean that in a positive way). First read my whole post. Two wrongs do not make a right. That means if one person breaks the contract than that gives the other the right to to break the contract in order to make things right. I did not do as you suggest in your post. I did not compare robbing a bank to pkg handling. Ok, I used the robbing a bank example to better explain the two wrongs equal a right. I could have used any other examples. Ok the problem with that is that the next time I see a sup do something wrong, than I can justify myself into doing something wrong in thinking I m making things right. Do you see what could happen with that type of logic. I hope I explained it clear enough for you. Any questions please feel free to post again. Again, Welcome to the Brown Cafe.

 

[mathematics]

the contract, or at least the local 804 supplement, says that the pace of work will be at the company's discretion. i do not remember the wording verbatim, but it gives the company the right to say what "fair day's work" is.

unfortuately, too many teamsters take advantage of, and skew the reasons why labor unions are around in the first place. at the night sort in my hub, teamsters constantly no-call and call-in (4 day weekends), and think there is nothing wrong with that because of their union protection. the discipline process is a joke, and it takes 12 months for someone to get fired over that kind of behavior (which all of us should realize is wrong, because, after all, this is a business). would you hire a teamster like that if you owned a business? probably not. you'd want reliable people that you can count on showing up to work.

let's be honest here. an employee is supposed to notify a supervisor 2 hours prior to start time that they aren't coming to work so we can try and find double shifter's to do the work. at my hub, we're lucky if they call 5 minutes before the start of their shift because they usually don't call ar all (see above paragraph if you are going to bitch about supervisors holding people accountable). does that give me any time to get someone into work, realistically? am i really going to bend over backwards to obide by the contract when i'm getting **** on and sodomized by teamsters? i will work when i have to work until the teamsters stop their bull**** protection of employees who don't come to work. are the stewards that stupid that they would rather fight with magagement for the sake of fighting, rather than being pissed off at their own teamsters for screwing them out of pension credits?

this is a business, and sups have to do what they have to do to get the packages out when teamsters don't show up for work. we can't just keep hiring people every week and end up with 100 people on the schedule just to hope that some people show up. that is NOT how to run a business. the teamsters make more work for themselves by accepting the behavior of their members. they believe they are being good brothers and sisters when they are sticking it in their own asses.

also, stop crying about UPS stock. it's clear that none of you knows anything about the subject. FREE CASH FLOW is what allows UPS to expand and innovate. They don't do this by decreasing earnings. Such things have to be cleared by shareholders. CEO's and the like do not just do whatever they want without shareholder approval. If they did, that would be a major, illegal SEC violation. UPS stock is considered one of the best income-investor stocks to buy for a reason. You need to stop thinking you know everything about UPS stock just because you work for them. Give me my 10% off the purchase of stock, along with dividends, and years of compunding....and I will be one happy person 30 years from now even if the stock never goes past $85

 

[govols019]

So full of hate and excuses.