Mr. Smith attends Obama"s meeting on fiscal cliff deficit

[vantexan]

And what did Bush do after more than 3000 died on American soil? Invade a country and start a war which had no involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

I've said plenty of times I wish we had limited the war to Afghanistan.

 

[Goldilocks]

And what did Bush do after more than 3000 died on American soil? Invade a country and start a war which had no involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

OMG, please leave Bush out of this. He has been gone for 4 years. You guys will still bring him up after the failure of this party.

 

[vantexan]

Again I ask the question of you,do you have anything of substance ? An original thought ? Not regurgitated talking points from conservative websites? Do you ???? Or should I use Google to actually find out where all of your talking points are coming from ?

Please do, all you do is talk about talking points without discussing facts. Maybe you'll learn something...

 

[Goldilocks]

Jesus was above such things. He would not force anything on anyone, but rather expected personal responsibility and our taking care of our fellow man on an individual basis.

Let it go Van, this women is all about FREE SEX, FREE ABORTIONS, FREE DRUGS, FREE MONEY,FREE HEALTHCARE,FREE FOOD. Let the wealthy take care of the problem. RIGHT....THE NEW CENTURY CHRISTIANS....BLAAAA.....Its the GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME Genreration.....They need to get on their hands and knees to do a lot of soul searching.....

 

[MAKAVELI]

This sounds a lot like the Horatio Alger/American Exceptionalism argument. The trouble is that opportunity is not equal. When it is, then perhaps it will hold water. Did I have the same level of opportunity to start a business as Fred S, who inherited today's equivalent of $20M? Absolutely not. Sure, he took a risk, but 99.9% of us would not have had the opportunity.

Does the minimum-wage Hispanic worker who has 2 jobs and can't even make ends meet have the opportunity to be "exceptional"? Not really. At least not in the sense that Mitt Romney's son has a chance to be "exceptional" because Daddy paid for his education and then provided the seed money for a business start-up.

This is where the GOP argument falls flat on it's face, but you still embrace it. Van, you are obviously a hard worker. Why aren't you a millionaire too?

Was Bill Clinton born into wealth? Plenty of examples out there of people who started humble and ended up wealthy. My answer still stands, some farmers might be grossing $80k a year, some $800k, many in between. If they shelled out $20hr to workers, how much would they have leftover? If you take away the profit incentive to do better people stop producing because it isn't worth it. In much the same way there will soon be less doctors.

Does it matter that you and I aren't millionaires? Again envy is at the heart of this discussion. I could care less how much anyone else has as long as I have a roof over my head, food to eat, the ability to travel, take care of my family, have something to live on when I'm old. I'm against exploitation, but is it exploiting people who come where they have no work to gladly take what is available?

People think of illegal migrants as desperately poor, living in squalor. Fact is many, if not most, aren't here for the American dream. They live many to a cheap home to cut costs and send money home. They use that money to build homes and businesses in Mexico. Remittances to Mexico is one of the top sources of hard capital that country has. You also have to understand the mindset of Mexicans(and other Latinos). Americans tend to look at some work as beneath them. Mexicans see laboring in fields as honorable work, what they do to make money. All work is honorable. What's dishonorable is not being willing to work hard to take care of your family. USA Today had an article last week about how Mexico is now a middle class country. About half the population is middle class. Much of that growth in personal income came from not only trade with the States but hard working people willing to take the risk and head north to take work, in all kinds of venues. We tend to think of a constant push north, establishing themselves here. And certainly the growth of the Hispanic minority supports that. But many millions more have come and gone, because Mexico is where their home and family is, and where they want to be. I've also worked with Hispanic couriers in Texas and New Mexico. Many were first generation born in the U.S.. They tend to revere their parents, who worked so hard to give them a chance at a better life. You see, Hispanics don't just work in minimum wage jobs. In South Texas for example, they are the doctors, lawyers, judges, teachers, police, etc. White liberals, while well intentioned, seem to always think of minorities as needing their help and patronage i.e. White Paternalism. But given the chance to better themselves they do just fine without the great white father looking out for them. And no, they aren't all millionaires. I don't hear the ones I've been around complaining about it either.

You republicans will always have an excuse why the cost of labor has to be low so low that it is below poverty level. And some field workers may think it's honorable but I'm sure they don't want their kids or grandkids in the fields. They work in the fields not because they love the work but out of necessity. Merely a means to an end. Something most of you republicans can not empathize with. Most don't have an education to choose another career. So what other opportunities do they have?
And to say they don't live in poverty is just ignorance. Again I personally see it every day.

 

[vantexan]

You republicans will always have an excuse why the cost of labor has to be low so low that it is below poverty level. And some field workers may think it's honorable but I'm sure they don't want their kids or grandkids in the fields. They work in the fields not because they love the work but out of necessity. Merely a means to an end. Something most of you republicans can not empathize with. Most don't have an education to choose another career. So what other opportunities do they have?
And to say they don't live in poverty is just ignorance. Again I personally see it every day.

Where did I say they weren't living in poverty? I said they do what they need to to send money home. And many, if not most who live here, with plans to stay here, who are willing to work hard(some aren't just like in any group), work themselves out of poverty. Something you don't seem to understand is they come here knowing they'll have to work hard, that it'll be tough, and they are still willing. They don't come here with the mindset that they'll stay poor forever but that's ok because the gov't will give them everything anyways.

 

[vantexan]

You republicans will always have an excuse why the cost of labor has to be low so low that it is below poverty level. And some field workers may think it's honorable but I'm sure they don't want their kids or grandkids in the fields. They work in the fields not because they love the work but out of necessity. Merely a means to an end. Something most of you republicans can not empathize with. Most don't have an education to choose another career. So what other opportunities do they have?
And to say they don't live in poverty is just ignorance. Again I personally see it every day.

If you aren't happy with your pay then take on another job on weekends. Volunteer for overtime. Take up a sideline you can do in your garage. Whatever. Oh wait, that'll cut into your me time where you go play with your buddies or watch sports or go fishing. No one ever said it was easy but people today, watching others have wonderful lives on TV, think they have to have it all or they are somehow getting cheated. Again, if you aren't willing to start and grow a business, or get training in something that pays well, or move up the ladder in this very cutthroat company, then you better be content with what you have or else you are going to end up very frustrated.

 

[MAKAVELI]

You republicans will always have an excuse why the cost of labor has to be low so low that it is below poverty level. And some field workers may think it's honorable but I'm sure they don't want their kids or grandkids in the fields. They work in the fields not because they love the work but out of necessity. Merely a means to an end. Something most of you republicans can not empathize with. Most don't have an education to choose another career. So what other opportunities do they have?
And to say they don't live in poverty is just ignorance. Again I personally see it every day.

Where did I say they weren't living in poverty? I said they do what they need to to send money home. And many, if not most who live here, with plans to stay here, who are willing to work hard(some aren't just like in any group), work themselves out of poverty. Something you don't seem to understand is they come here knowing they'll have to work hard, that it'll be tough, and they are still willing. They don't come here with the mindset that they'll stay poor forever but that's ok because the gov't will give them everything anyways.

Again more ignorance. You really need to stop watching faux news and listening to Limbaugh. Get out in the real world and get a glimpse of reality.

 

[vantexan]

Again more ignorance. You really need to stop watching faux news and listening to Limbaugh. Get out in the real world and get a glimpse of reality.

Seriously, that's all you have?

 

[MAKAVELI]

Again more ignorance. You really need to stop watching faux news and listening to Limbaugh. Get out in the real world and get a glimpse of reality.

Seriously, that's all you have?

No, just busy playing with my friends, watching sports, going fishing, etc. You know all the stuff we lazy, greedy, dumb, average Americans do on the weekends.

 

[vantexan]

No, just busy playing with my friends, watching sports, going fishing, etc. You know all the stuff we lazy, greedy, dumb, average Americans do on the weekends.

Exactly, I knew you'd come around!

 

[MrFedEx]

OMG, please leave Bush out of this. He has been gone for 4 years. You guys will still bring him up after the failure of this party.

He sunk the ship, and now you want to blame the guy patching the holes so it can be re-floated.

 

[Lordtekk]

Please do, all you do is talk about talking points without discussing facts. Maybe you'll learn something...

Maybe I will,but not from you. Again all you do is regurgitate something someone else says and you claim it's yours. I think that's called plagiarism . Not an original thought or idea just Talking points from Fox News.

 

[Lordtekk]

Let it go Van, this women is all about FREE SEX, FREE ABORTIONS, FREE DRUGS, FREE MONEY,FREE HEALTHCARE,FREE FOOD. Let the wealthy take care of the problem. RIGHT....THE NEW CENTURY CHRISTIANS....BLAAAA.....Its the GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME Genreration.....They need to get on their hands and knees to do a lot of soul searching.....

The purpose of hands and knee's is what ? Soul Searching is achieved if someone is on their hands and knees ?

 

[TUT]

And illegals didn't cross the border to work during the Carter years, and the Clinton years? Are there no wealthy Dems in California with illegal housekeepers, gardeners? Only Repubs hire illegals? Illegal migrant farm workers have been picking crops for generations. Americans stopped doing it because it's backbreaking work that doesn't pay well. There's little chance farmers are going to pay $20 hr because they don't get enough from brokers to pay that and make a living themselves. Just the way it is, and food in this country isn't cheap now. You'd have riots if the poor can't afford to buy food.

Going by percentages owners of companies gravitate towards being republican, no matter the administration. Right farmers won't pay $20 because the system has been hijacked. If they worked under standard labor laws over the years the scale would have gradually increased. But they circumvented the laws, ran Americans out of those jobs and made is so it was attractive to an illegal only. So ****ty. What a wonder web we weave. But if no one shows up for work, I guess they'll have to figure out what it will take to get people to work for them.

 

[MrFedEx]

Going by percentages owners of companies gravitate towards being republican, no matter the administration. Right farmers won't pay $20 because the system has been hijacked. If they worked under standard labor laws over the years the scale would have gradually increased. But they circumvented the laws, ran Americans out of those jobs and made is so it was attractive to an illegal only. So ****ty. What a wonder web we weave. But if no one shows up for work, I guess they'll have to figure out what it will take to get people to work for them.

Yep. By tightening the borders, the GOP has screwed the Right-leaning farmer out of their cheap labor. I love how Republicans scream about illegals using ER's, having anchor babies, and otherwise using "government services", but who employs these people...mainly Republicans. Sure, there are Berkeley lefties who hypocritically hire illegals, but the real problem is farmers, construction, and the trades, where illegals are rampant.

Many years ago one of my regulars was a high-end boat manufacturer that employed illegals almost exclusively on the shop floor. The wealthy owner was a well-known GOP figure who was a major political player. Every once in awhile, the place would get raided, and half the employees would get shipped home, and the other half ran or drove-off before they could be rounded-up. The next week, they'd all be back. I asked, and the pay for floor workers was $5.00 per hr. This was in the late 80's.

Locally, the Home Depot parking lot is still full of illegals who are semi-skilled laborers. Every morning, contractors and landscapers grab their crew. Restaurants, semi-skilled manufacturing, landscape companies, and all of the usual suspects get their low-cost labor and then kvetch about "open borders" etc. What a laugh, especially in the Southwest.

Half the restaurants in Southwest cities would shutdown without illegals, and so would a lot of farms. Every year, farmers let crops rot because there aren't enough laborers to harvest them, and it's gotten worse since the tightening of the borders.

 

[Goldilocks]

The purpose of hands and knee's is what ? Soul Searching is achieved if someone is on their hands and knees ?

One day, trust me, you will get what I am saying. Maybe too late.....

 

[vantexan]

Yep. By tightening the borders, the GOP has screwed the Right-leaning farmer out of their cheap labor. I love how Republicans scream about illegals using ER's, having anchor babies, and otherwise using "government services", but who employs these people...mainly Republicans. Sure, there are Berkeley lefties who hypocritically hire illegals, but the real problem is farmers, construction, and the trades, where illegals are rampant.

Many years ago one of my regulars was a high-end boat manufacturer that employed illegals almost exclusively on the shop floor. The wealthy owner was a well-known GOP figure who was a major political player. Every once in awhile, the place would get raided, and half the employees would get shipped home, and the other half ran or drove-off before they could be rounded-up. The next week, they'd all be back. I asked, and the pay for floor workers was $5.00 per hr. This was in the late 80's.

Locally, the Home Depot parking lot is still full of illegals who are semi-skilled laborers. Every morning, contractors and landscapers grab their crew. Restaurants, semi-skilled manufacturing, landscape companies, and all of the usual suspects get their low-cost labor and then kvetch about "open borders" etc. What a laugh, especially in the Southwest.

Half the restaurants in Southwest cities would shutdown without illegals, and so would a lot of farms. Every year, farmers let crops rot because there aren't enough laborers to harvest them, and it's gotten worse since the tightening of the borders.

Again, have a guest worker program, pay them decent wages. Only allow them to be hired where there's a demonstrated need. Citizens should have first crack at any job, but good luck getting them $20hr if Walmart and others pay half that. We all want better pay, good luck getting it.

Interesting that you want them paid better, but don't want them to have the better paying jobs like construction. By the way, Cesar Chavez had goons at the border beating illegals to keep them from taking union farm jobs. Democrats don't have any moral high ground here, and you certainly want them to be made legal to vote Democrat. At any rate I've said all along that they should be paid better, but don't allow whole families in that strain, even exhaust our resources. That goes back to Democrat spending, y'all seem to think there's a bottomless pool of money that can cover anything and everything. By the way, most of the restaurants in NYC would shut down without illegals too.

 

[Goldilocks]

Again, have a guest worker program, pay them decent wages. Only allow them to be hired where there's a demonstrated need. Citizens should have first crack at any job, but good luck getting them $20hr if Walmart and others pay half that. We all want better pay, good luck getting it.

Interesting that you want them paid better, but don't want them to have the better paying jobs like construction. By the way, Cesar Chavez had goons at the border beating illegals to keep them from taking union farm jobs. Democrats don't have any moral high ground here, and you certainly want them to be made legal to vote Democrat. At any rate I've said all along that they should be paid better, but don't allow whole families in that strain, even exhaust our resources. That goes back to Democrat spending, y'all seem to think there's a bottomless pool of money that can cover anything and everything. By the way, most of the restaurants in NYC would shut down without illegals too.

By the way, I often shop at a Fiesta Grocery Store, 100 percent hispanic, that drive very nice cars, better than what I have.....

 

[Lordtekk]

One day, trust me, you will get what I am saying. Maybe too late.....

I don't live my life in fear or worry about a fictional paradise if I am good enough to get in. I don't care. Trust Me I don't give a damn or care.