Murtha Bringing New Life or Same Ole, Same Ole?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by wkmac, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Abscam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Read Section 4 of the article. Yeah, it's 20 plus years ago but like wolves and sex perverters, once politicians taste the blood money I'm not convinced they can be salvaged.

    JMO

    Word is also out that George Soros and crew aren't happy with Murtha either. This may prove worth watching. I love Bloodsport especially when the combatants are politicians and powerbrokers. If it gets bad enough they tend to throw each other under the bus and then we begin to learn more of the truth. If we're lucky, Washington will turn on itself and implode and we get to watch the festive event!

    What's more dangerous to America than an Al Queda dirty nuke bomb or fully fueled jet? Politicians and their running buddies, when they smell the chance at real power!
    :tongue_sm

    Now if we could get an unbias media with access in Washington to start really telling the truth. Oh that's right. if they did that they wouldn't have the access! Damn, foiled again!
    :wink:

    One other thing, have you heard any democrats say a thing about reversing the many powers that the President envoke upon himself during the last 6 years? For 6 years we've heard screams and cries of this but what happens now? Watch this closely my firends, watch this very closely!
    :detective
     
  2. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    It's amazing that the Dem. infighting was held at bay while the elections were held......no self control now, it's busting out all over .:crying:
     
  3. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Hey, it's not just the democrats either. Infighting going on amongst the elephant crowd but the story is the majority party so you'll hear more on this and them. The White House just along for the ride now. Even Newt was critical of Bush after he waited to dump Rumy after the election. I'm not so sure that dumping Rumy would have made the difference for the Republicans but the decision by Bush was self serving if you ask me.

    Another interesting op-ed on the elction results is found at Reason Magazine - The Return of Two-Party Rule and I think the writer has a lot right in his opinion piece. JMO however!
     
  4. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    two party rule may not be enough to describe the democratic party. It appears we basiclally had mainstream democrats elected to office while the liberal extremist now fight to hold leadership positions. Should be real interesting.
     
  5. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    I'm also looking for the democratic parties mandate. Other then a quicker Iraq exit and a dislike for Bush I don't see a whole lot that unites this group.
     
  6. The Democratic Party

    1) Honest, Open Government
    2) Security
    3) Energy Independence
    4) Economic Prosperity & Educational Excellence
    5) Working Healthcare System
    6) Retirement Security

    That's for starters, there's more...

    Would you care to list the accomplishments of the Republican held executive and legislative branches over the last six years?
     
  7. CTOTH

    CTOTH Not retired, just tired

    There is a huge difference between agenda and accomplishment. Democrats haven't accomplished anything on this list. Remember, they didn't have the majority, but they still had a voice. Many of them just went along with their right wing bretheren for the last 6 years. And that list of accomplishments you speak of, changes depending on the news network you watch.
    Where were all these democrats during the initial vote on the war?
    Answer: Probably at home for a long weekend.
     
  8. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Response to Common Ground's post


    No argument from me that the republicans have done little to nothing except grow gov't in the tradition of their across the isle brethren. The one difference is they were more efficent in growing the gov't at a faster pace so no wonder the dems want them out for making em' look so bad! Besides, you know something is wacked when the democrats are talking the need to balance budgets, control spending, etc. while the repubs act like horny men overdosed on Viagra with unlimited funds in a whore house.
    :lol: Question now, will the dems start taking the little blue pill?

    All the issues above are not just "johnny come lately" issues as they have been there for years. Here goes my take!

    Energy warning signs were seen as early as the 70's and what has been done? Nothing and it wasn't just a one party foot dragging as both parties in the last 30 years has held all 3 branches of gov't at the same time and had the position to move the country forward. Did they? If they had we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?

    Security you ask. Well the threat of the Middle East has been on slow boil since the waning Carter days (some including me would argue this began as England took control of the old lands of the Ottoman empire according to the settling of WW1) and what has happened? At first, the rise to power of extreme Islamic forces in Iran were seen in a "not serious" roll once the hostages in Tehran were free and I'll give you the Cold War was a front burner issue. Our only response at the time was to back Iraq in the Iraq/Iran war thinking that our backing of the Sunni to face the Shi'a forces of Iran was enough to stall if not kill this process. A few of you here made joke of understanding the difference between Sunni and Shi'a and go ahead and make joke but you'll never understand the political chessgame of the region if you don't and you'll also never understand the current civil war in Iraq. Also it was in this Iran/Iraq war period that Saddam introduced chemical weapons into this process and let me ask you something here so you might start connecting dots. Saddam prior to this had no infastructure for chemical production, this being the cold war period US presense made Soviet connections highly unlikely and on the other side of Iran you had USSR pinned down in it's own Vietnam where Osama was being trained by CIA forces to later haunt America and the world with. OK, remember the political term domino effect? There was a huge thought process that USSR would beachhead in Afghanistan and then roll west through the oil region and also remember that during this and preceeding years the Soviets were better thought of in the Islamic lands of the mideast because of US backing of Israel. Remember those chemical weapons Saddam used in battle and on the Kurds? I'd be willing to bet the farm that they were stamped "Made In USA" and "from your friends at CIA" all over them. During these times the democrats for the most part control the houses of the legislature and the White House flipped flopped between the 2 parties. Both parties have this blood on their hands.

    Educational excellence? You're kidding me right? Over the last 40 years our educational system has gotten worse and worse and continues to this day to do so and the parties continue to only throw out gimmicks to try and solve it. Isn't it ironic that when the Dept. of Education was created and the Federal level began to sieze control of education away from the local jurisdictions that almost tracking the trendlines of control, the level of education in this country began to drop. Oh, that's of no consequence you say. OK, you keep believing that and let's revisit this issue in 10 more years.

    The latest to my shock was under the "no child left behind" concept. Local high school has a "real" problem kid who drops out for a period and then returns so that he maintains his status for family purposes of gov't programs and benefits. I'm sure this isn't an isolated case but one that I finally came to know because of a teacher in that school. This student is currently 20 years old and when I learned this I just said when he walks out don't let him back in. No can do I was told. Under the "no child left behind" he can't be barred until he hits 21 years old. At least this approaches with due haste. Talk about stupid. Back in the day, once you pasted 18 your option for education was called "Night School" with other adults. There was no going back and in some cases once you left, night school was your only option no matter what age you were. But that was the draconian local control rules and now we have a kinda, gentler, compassionate system? Where's the compassion for the 16 year olds who have to put up with this disruptive 20 year old in a so-called learning environment?

    Economic prosperity. Well some good and some bad here and both parties can take some credit and some blame. This is somewhat dicey to judge because we have a mis-mash of economic principles and theories in play and how it works out is still left somewhat in play. On the one hand you have the Fascist theories of Mussolini and it's Corporatism dynamics but then you have among this some Keynesian principles influenced by greater statist controls more along the lines of more left leaning economics and then a small sprinkle of free-market mostly for the effect of maintaining the illusion that we are economically free. Sometimes taking the best of all worlds gets you the best of all worlds and then sometimes what you take actually competes and counters each other to the point that nothing works over time in a good way and only gets worse. I actually believe we are the latter rather than the former by that is JMO.

    Economics is much like religion even though is considered a science by most. If you take a little Judaism, a little Islam and a little Christianity and throw em together for a single religion it might work but under one condition. The people that live by it were never jews, never muslim, never christian or never anything. They have no prior experience (no precondition at all) to prejudge so they come in with a clean slate. This is not so with economics or any other function that gov't assumes for itself with our alledged permission.

    Healthcare. Truly a double edge sword and both parties built it. On the one hand our healthcare has made wonderful advances and it appears will do so into the future but starting in the last century as we started to advance, the gov't came to regulate more and more in this area and if one dare take the time to look at the happenings within the legislative body at the time these controls expanded, you'll find corp. interests in the middle of it all pushing these controls as a means not of safe guarding the public but rather to limit the potential of competition in a free and open market. In the meantime, as the process grew, gov't in order to protect it's own costs and claims window started regulating prices in the market place thus adding further pressures. At first, gov't was an open checkbook as the new program had few people involved so the ration of funds to particpate was outstanding but over time politicians began to learn the mechanism of buying votes and when distressed voters called about their problems, the politician saved the day. As this process esculated the ratio gap closed and thus began other means of controlling the payouts. If gov't issues a drop dead rate of what they pay and the true cost is greater then where do you think that cost goes too? Ever considered the Hill-Burton Act? You might as there is a real shocker buried inside it that all public hospitals hope and pray never gets out but it does and I've seen it used and yes, America does have totally free healthcare for anyone if you know the secret password.

    Retirement. How many folks here feel absolutely safe and secure about their retirement future? I'll let the answers to that quetion stand on it's own and again both parties share in equal blame.

    The truth is, neither party is doing what is in the best interest of this country. You know who I'd like to see run for office? A bunch of folks who stand there and to my face tell me that they don't have all the answers (because the truth is they don't) but that the first thing once in office is to knock the doors off the hinges and expose everything to the light of day. How can we have a national discussion on taxes, or healthcare or retirement or even national security when the fact of the matter as a people we are so ignorant of what has gone on in the past and how all these laws play on one another. Have you ever even wondered about our international trieaties we've signed on to and what legisaltive effect that has. Having read a few treaties and their delegated authority supported legislation you'd be shocked to learn how much of our laws are a result of this. How many times have you seen some law that you know in your gut voilates the intent and spirit of the constitution but yet is accepted by all parties and no court stands in it's way. Bet the farm there is a treaty somewhere behind it as treaties supercede all in it's force and effect.

    If you want some knight in shining armor to ride in and save the day while you enjoy more wine and circus, well you may enjoy some more wine and circus for a time and mostly at the expense of someone else being denied thier's but in the end you'll be right back again staring at the same problem that has only grown worse and the gov't more powerful and you of even less significance than you were.
     
  9. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    RE: EDUCATION

    I don't know exactly when it happened, but when they stopped teaching basic phonics in school, the schools turned out 5th,6th & 7th graders who can't read worth a damn.

    I don't care which party attacks the problem. I'd just like to see kids reading a "Dick & Jane" book in the 2nd grade.

    Did you see the 8 yr. old daughter of Steve Irwin reading aloud at her father's memorial? That's what I want for U.S. kids.
     
  10. Quick note...

    My post was in response to Tieguy's asking for the dems plans.

    CToth, the dems are not yet in power, wait until after the first of the year.

    Moreluck, much has changed since you were taught by phonics (1950's I would guess). Working moms and television are a couple that come to mind real quickly.
     
  11. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Moreluck,
    Phonics was phased out in the 60's and replaced for the most part with what is known as the Look, See method. Look, See was the means used to teach deaf children how to read as the use of sound was impossible. This may have changed somewhat as some parental pressures and falling test scores in some local districts may have forced some changes. Phonics is used many private schools and is most popular amongst Home Schoolers. This may answer why they tend to dominate in various Spelling Bee competitions.

    Same is true of mathmatics as we've begun to slide in these areas while others, especially the far-east who use manipulatives and stress place values are moving ahead of us at light speed.
     
  12. CTOTH

    CTOTH Not retired, just tired

    I realize this but my point is simple. Politicians will say what they think you want to hear. Dems have a list of issues they speak of, and Reps another but once they win their seat, for the most part, they are the same.
    Republicrats are the peoples' enemy and their only agenda is making money at the expense of you and I. They don't care where the money comes from as long as it's final destination is their pockets. No one in Washington is there to be the voice of their constituants anymore, only personal gain and bragging rights.

    You can see it on their faces when they win elections. It's as if they've won a game or contest. My life, freedoms and wages are not a game and should not be taken lightly.
     

  13. Agreed, though I have yet to see anything the republicans have done that has a positive effect on me or my family, aprt from reducing capital gains taxes, where the democrats have accomplished a host of legislation that positively impacts Americans regardless of wealth.
     
  14. FWIW, I say give them a chance, after all it's our ONLY chance.
     
  15. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    I'd appreciate it if you would educate us on all these accomplishments and the specifics of each as to the positive impact on society, the cost per taxpayer and specifically the amount of growth in number of new employees to the size of federal gov't to accomplish this task and a timeframe as to when the goal of the legislation will be met. The republicans have grown gov't at an unbelievable rate that made the Clinton years growth rate look stanch conservative. To add insult, much of this unneeded growth made the unbalanced budget even worse and piled onto an ever growing federal gov't debt proving the fiscal talk of the republicans and the Bush adminstration as nothing but hollow spin. I've heard democrats over the last couple of years attempt to address this concern so I'm certain based on their fiscal responsible nature that all programs will be cost effective, goal accomplishing that needs no pepetual bureaucracy and most important not a burden on national debt, pressure on an already grossly unbalanced budget and more so, a burden especially on lower middle class taxpayers who many pundits of both right and left say are taking it on the chin as the middle class is getting squeezed out.

    To help you in your efforts I've included the link to the Library of Congress to accelerate your search efforts in order to link legislation and recordings in the Federal Register of all these wonderful accomplishments as I'd like to see the specific bills and recording of delegations of authority to the executive branch that oversees the bureaucratic operations that control federal programs.

    Looking so forward to hear of these great things after watching the republicans do so little to really get much done that does benefit the country in the longterm.

    BTW CTOTH, Nice post! Let's hope more and more folks start waking to the same conclusion as this will result in better results come election time.
    :thumbup1:
     
  16. wkmac,

    Since you seem to have the time to write a doctoral presentation on every post, why don't you crunch those numbers and research that legislation?

    Care to list Republican achievements in the post Ike era?

    Libertarianism hasn't worked ever, BTW.
     
  17. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    From the above link:

    Now we have a problem and it begins with Rep. John Murtha who could become the democrat leader in the House. Here's what Murtha said to Chris Matthew's in recent TV interview:

    Murtha defends his ethics - Hardball with Chris Matthews - MSNBC.com

    Murtha should hit the golf course immediately because he has that backspin working perfectly! LOL!

    Hey Common, you might want to contact Murtha and give him the link you posted. I think he needs to read this more than any of us here need too.
    :lol:

    There is good news folks and that is the democrats are starting off and showing the very same hypocrisy as the other clowns that just got booted out. Reid linked to Abramoff by Abramoff himself and now Murtha calling the democrat bill to curtail lobby abuse "total crap!"
    OK, we watched the Limbaugh's and the Hannity's of the world dance the fast foot dance when the repubs started their hyprocrisy so now the shoe is on the other foot. Damn, this is gonna be so much fun!
    :clap:

    I love a good train wreck especially when I know both trains are screaming down the wrong track. What makes this even better is these idiots have managed to place themselves on the same "wrong" track and barreling towards one another at ever increasing speed! They can't hit soon enough for me.
     
  18. tonyexpress

    tonyexpress Whac-A-Troll Patrol Staff Member

    Murtha earlier this year:
    Last November and December, when Rep. Murtha (D-Pa.) came up with his proposal to “redeploy” U.S. troops out of Iraq — “My plan says redeploy to the periphery, to Kuwait, to Okinawa, and if there’s a terrorist activity that affects our allies or affects the United States’s national security, we can then go back in” — few, if any, Democrats dared to publicly embrace his idea.
    Pelosi:
    But then Pelosi spoke up. “I’m endorsing what Mr. Murtha is saying,” she said. “I believe that a majority of our caucus clearly supports Mr. Murtha.”


    Hoyer:
    The “majority of the caucus” thing was a bit much. “I believe that a precipitous withdrawal of American forces in Iraq could lead to disaster,” said Rep. Hoyer (D-Md.), begging to disagree, “spawning a civil war, fostering a haven for terrorists and damaging our nation’s security and credibility.”


    So much for Murtha! At least the moderate Democrats stand a better chance at working together with the republicans. Murtha would have been a disaster and Pelosi already is. At least Hoyer has some common sense and a lot of support with 149-86 vote.:cool:


    BREITBART.COM - House Democrats Name Hoyer to No. 2 Post
     
  19. Sorry, I'm not a fan of wrecks of any kind, especially those that involve my country. Let me guess, you're a NASCAR fan too, right?

    It seems as if the right wing can hardly wait to blame someone other than themselves for the mess this country is in. Let's wait until Spring 2007 before we pass judgement on a Congress that hasn't even been seated yet.

    Face it, there is a mighty deep hole that has to be dug out from, glad to see all the patriots here getting behind the new Congress
     
  20. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Strike a nerve there my Arizona Cactus flower?
    :lol:
    I believe your post and link concerned only democrat party achievements and I've already and am more than willing to concede the fact that republicans got nothing done except make things worse. As for the libertarians, they haven't gotten the chance to rule and to be honest what they want to do with gov't is so radically different from the democrat and republican fascist models that any comparsion is just not possible. The goals and achievements are on very different planes.

    Even though I'm vocal and will remain so, I've also adapted and adjusted to the fact that some type of socialist/fascist Empirical gov't model will rule over me and the generations of my children and likely grandchildren. I can live with that and will scream and shout in the hopes that at least my pain in their backside might just force some element of honesty in gov't so that when they say we'll do this or do that, that in fact that is exactly what they will do and not engage in corrupt and dishonest acts after lying to us. I also get sweet satisfaction knowing that in my world of no compulsary gov't and where the individual is free to live and work with others as he sees fit, that you could never adapt and adjust and survive in that type of society. I take great pleasure in that thought!

    Maybe this will make it even worse.

    Seems Speaker Pelosi and Co. are in the process of assigning committee Chairman and Congressman Alcee Hastings of Florida appears to be at the top of the list for the Chair of the House Intelligence Committee. Now this will be a fine appointent in sending a clear message to the American voter of where the new Democrat party stands on corruptions and dishonest gov't. I can say after reading below that I feel more and more confident about where the position on such issues by the demcrats will fall.

    Alcee Hastings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Really looking forward to those first 100 hours!
    :lol:

    Same ole, same ole, folks!
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2006