New GPS Time Study: What they are not telling you

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Yes, I did gain a small amount of time....for the first time in over 22 years.

Hey, if you shove enough quarters into a slot machine for long enough, you will wind up hitting a jackpot....eventually. It doesnt change the fact that the slot machine...like the timestudy...is designed to produce only the outcome that its programmers want.

And as far as the poor manager that thinks every driver is out to "screw" the company....they might not think that way if the standards that they were using to judge their drivers had some basis in reality. When your own job security and goals of promotion are based solely upon the ability of your drivers to manufacture arbitrary and impossible numbers, its human nature to think they are "screwing" you for failing to meet those goals.

We have gone round and round on this before... I have done countless studies, countless audits, taught classes, and was certified in original analysis. Not once was there any hint of a rigged system out to "screw" a driver.

I've been in these conversations before and there will be nothing I can say.... The response will be that either I'm lying, or so naive that I was fooled by the big conspiracy. There is no way to ever counter an argument like that.

If you lose time, its because they were out to screw you. If you gain time, its because they were out to screw you.

As I said, just like a poor manager. You can't convince them that drivers are not out to screw the company. I can't convince you that work measurement is not conceived to screw a driver.

Finally, you asked about what happens when a driver has a good job setup and good methods, but is still over allowed. What is the recourse? There is something called a variance for cases where the work measurement does not fit. It requires region approval, but I have put in many, many of them.

Its not easy to do, but can be done.

P-Man
 

old levi's

blank space
We have gone round and round on this before... I have done countless studies, countless audits, taught classes, and was certified in original analysis. Not once was there any hint of a rigged system out to "screw" a driver.

I've been in these conversations before and there will be nothing I can say.... The response will be that either I'm lying, or so naive that I was fooled by the big conspiracy. There is no way to ever counter an argument like that.

If you lose time, its because they were out to screw you. If you gain time, its because they were out to screw you.

As I said, just like a poor manager. You can't convince them that drivers are not out to screw the company. I can't convince you that work measurement is not conceived to screw a driver.

Finally, you asked about what happens when a driver has a good job setup and good methods, but is still over allowed. What is the recourse? There is something called a variance for cases where the work measurement does not fit. It requires region approval, but I have put in many, many of them.

Its not easy to do, but can be done.

P-Man

Could the advanced age of the driver be used to justify a variance?
 

Bubblehead

My Senior Picture
They have implemented the new GPS time studies here and most of the drivers gained some good time. Drivers with big piece stops seem to be effected a little more and have lost some time. The route that I was on I went from bonusing a half hour a day to an hour, hour and a half over on. My stops per hour never changed so I filed 9.5s constantly. Eventually I gave up that route because of the long hours and being over allowed, now that route has agined a little over an hour with the new time studies, go figure! It wasnt my fault after all!

I did file a grievance back when they did the virtual time study so now we are just waiting for all the information to see exactly how the measurements where done.

Filed a grievance for what?
Under what Article?
It's my opinion, as well as the opinion of my local, that to acknowledge in any of these allowances would be the equivalent of opening pandora's box.
The company would love to negotiate these numbers.
We are much better off leaving it at "a fair days work for a fair days pay".
 

govols019

You smell that?
Finally, you asked about what happens when a driver has a good job setup and good methods, but is still over allowed. What is the recourse? There is something called a variance for cases where the work measurement does not fit. It requires region approval, but I have put in many, many of them.

Its not easy to do, but can be done.

When you have a center manager that thinks every driver is just out to screw the company then how could could something like this ever make it to region approval? That's the center manager we have. Just because that was the type of driver he was he thinks everyone else is the same.

How do these GPS time studies work on a mall route?
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
Filed a grievance for what?
Under what Article?
It's my opinion, as well as the opinion of my local, that to acknowledge in any of these allowances would be the equivalent of opening pandora's box.
The company would love to negotiate these numbers.
We are much better off leaving it at "a fair days work for a fair days pay".

You hit the nail on the head. We get paid by the hour, there is no time allowances or bonus. It will not be discussed by the Union. End of story.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
When you have a center manager that thinks every driver is just out to screw the company then how could could something like this ever make it to region approval? That's the center manager we have. Just because that was the type of driver he was he thinks everyone else is the same.

How do these GPS time studies work on a mall route?

First, as I said multiple times. A manager that thinks every driver is out to screw the company is poor, inappropriate, and hurts the company. Yes, I know they exist. They won't listen to reason and you cannot prove to them otherwise. They think that drivers that when drivers don't take advantage, its because they monitor them so closely.

The other side of that coin is drivers who think no matter what that the company is out to screw them. They also wont listen to reason and only look at facts that prove their point.

Luckily, both examples really are the minority.

As far as a mall route goes, the distances for walks must be manually input (I believe). Satellite maps will not allow for these to be accurately determined. The new GPS time study is best in residential areas.

P-Man
 
:happy2:In a two month period I had one day off. That day off was the day they used for my new time study. My route is 85% resi's. The cover driver that did it breaks every safety rule in the book. Not only do we see his poor methods, he will tell you himself. He scans package as he jumps off car and immediately doe a DR Front door(stop complete) before he's halfway to actual door, then runs back and on to the next stop. BTW management loves this guy! My question is: Does GPS only count from scan to stop complete. If so, Im screwed. Also I heard today a driver in So. Fla who had been harrassed and received several warning letters over a years period about being over allowed has initiated a lawsiut against UPS. His route gained 35 minutes to the plus side with the new time study. It seems he has a clear cut case of unjust harrassment in the past. Hopefully it will go class action. If anyone has info please share. :happy2:
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
:happy2:In a two month period I had one day off. That day off was the day they used for my new time study. My route is 85% resi's. The cover driver that did it breaks every safety rule in the book. Not only do we see his poor methods, he will tell you himself. He scans package as he jumps off car and immediately doe a DR Front door(stop complete) before he's halfway to actual door, then runs back and on to the next stop. BTW management loves this guy! My question is: Does GPS only count from scan to stop complete. If so, Im screwed. Also I heard today a driver in So. Fla who had been harrassed and received several warning letters over a years period about being over allowed has initiated a lawsiut against UPS. His route gained 35 minutes to the plus side with the new time study. It seems he has a clear cut case of unjust harrassment in the past. Hopefully it will go class action. If anyone has info please share. :happy2:

What I was told is the walk distance is measured by the GPS, has nothing to do with when scanned or stop completed. Originally I thought it measured to the stop complete location, but I was told yhat is not the case.

P man??
 

upssuckz

New Member
ups is only going to do things that will benefit them. they don't care about there employees. we are just a piece of meat, and they seem to be trying to get someone hurt or injured. more sphro, less time to do things in. i have been with the company over 27 yrs. and in the 27 yrs, mangement has never laid off management. until now, well news to them, they could lay off 4 times that many, because they are all dead weight. they are the ones screwing this company. we have to get sales leads as well? what are those dead weights doing? just sitting around trying to find ways that they think we screw up. with all the modern technology, they don't need that many managers, they only have to push a button on a computer, and they have all the answers, or the supposedly answers. boy could i go on
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
What I was told is the walk distance is measured by the GPS, has nothing to do with when scanned or stop completed. Originally I thought it measured to the stop complete location, but I was told yhat is not the case.

P man??

As I recall, you are correct. All they are doing is trying to measure walk distances. They look at a satellite image and put a mark at the car park location and at the delivery location. The distance between them is walk distance.

They will look at the GPS reading of Scan, Sig, Stop Complete to see where you were and then move the points.
(I honestly don't remember if they use the DIAD 1 second readings or not.) The key is that they move the points to reflect where you park and walk to.

It may be worth asking the local IE guy to show you. Its really a very nice system.

P-Man
 

OVERBOARD

Don't believe everything you think
P man I was wondering if they added time for folding in the mirror and putting out the orange safety cones. There a memo posted in the pcm room that says we have to pull in the mirror at every stop and put out safety cones on downtown rts.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
P man I was wondering if they added time for folding in the mirror and putting out the orange safety cones. There a memo posted in the pcm room that says we have to pull in the mirror at every stop and put out safety cones on downtown rts.

No extra time as far as I know.

P-Man
 

freecarry88

Member
HTML:
As I recall, you are correct. All they are doing is trying to measure walk distances. They look at a satellite image and put a mark at the car park location and at the delivery location. The distance between them is walk distance.
  They will look at the GPS reading of Scan, Sig, Stop Complete to see where you were and then move the points.  (I honestly don't remember if they use the DIAD 1 second readings or not.) The key is that they move the points to reflect where you park and walk to.  It may be worth asking the local IE guy to show you. Its really a very nice system.  P-Man
They are not actually marking the true walk path like the timestudies of a few years ago. It is straight line to front door from midpoint of the street/road. There is a factor that compensates for the obvious difference, based on class of walk 1,2, etc.... Interestingly enough, the per package allowance on both pickup and delivery is partially based on size of package car (P500 has different allowance than P1200). Most centers that I have known of gain. This all might be moot if we truly go to a P&L model at the center level. We may find out some of the things we thought were so important may not be. I personally cannot think of a better way to measure a service providers efficiency than some combination of SPORH, NDPPH, and Ov/UN.
 

OVERBOARD

Don't believe everything you think
Last week they instituted the new time studied and this week as been the best week I had in a long time, it was nice to get out at a decent hour, before I had to be dispatch with over 9.5 hours of work to be over 8 on paper, I hope it stays this way, but I think they will switch the numbers back to the previous ones, things are to good right now.
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
P man I was wondering if they added time for folding in the mirror and putting out the orange safety cones. There a memo posted in the pcm room that says we have to pull in the mirror at every stop and put out safety cones on downtown rts.

Time allowed for folding in the mirror: none.
Time allowed for putting out a cone; none.
Time allowed for putting the package in a bag to keep it dry; none.
Time allowed for locating an out-of-sight, dry location to release package; none.
Time allowed for walking around the car to make sure the kid you saw behind you isnt hiding someplace; none.
Time allowed for getting out to check clearance when forced to back up in an unfamiliar location; none.
Time allowed for going back to change the delivery notices you left at 4 different apartments because you tried to indirect and the manager was out to lunch; none.
Time allowed for making 3 indirect delivery attempts on a signature required package; none.
Time allowed for making 2 or 3 dozen 8-point turnarounds because your non-power steering pkg car has the turning radius of an aircraft carrier; none.
Time allowed for driving 5 miles uphill in 2nd gear at 11 MPH because your non power-steering pkg car is so underpowered that it cant get out of its own way; none.
Time allowed for bagging smalls; none.
Time allowed for correcting invoice errors on an international shipment; none.
Time allowed for applying highlight tape to all 6 sides of an over-70 lb package; none.
Time allowed for waiting for a customer to fill out ASD's and waybills for an on-call air; none.
Time allowed for waiting for a customer to finish printing the online end-of-day report to scan; none.
Time allowed for sorting and re-handling the 40 stops that you are sent to take off of an overdispatched driver; none.
Time allowed for looking in a map book in an unfamiliar area; none.
Time allowed for verifying the address on a house that doesnt have a visible number; none.
Time allowed for sorting your load when preload forces 400 packages into your P-800; none.
Time allowed for reading and responding to text messages in the DIAD from the center; none.

In I.E. world, none of these things are necessary so there is no need to allow any time for them.
In I.E. world, all the allowances are fair and realistic, and every day is sunshine and lollypops.

Isnt I.E. world a lovely place?
 

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
Last week they instituted the new time studied and this week as been the best week I had in a long time, it was nice to get out at a decent hour, before I had to be dispatch with over 9.5 hours of work to be over 8 on paper, I hope it stays this way, but I think they will switch the numbers back to the previous ones, things are to good right now.


Enjoy it while it lasts.

Those numbers are entirely arbitrary and can be changed at the whim of the company. You will have no recourse.

I am in a similar situation at the moment, for whatever reason it has been decided that my work will be given a fairly realistic allowance. It didnt use to be that way. I didnt recognize the numbers when they were rigged against me, and I dont recognize them now. For all I know I will show up at work tomorrow and find out that I have lost an hour or two, and it will be like "old times" all over again.:happy2:

The key is to detach yourself from any concern for the allowances. To me, they might as well be lottery numbers. I dont play the lottery, so I dont really care what they are.
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
Time allowed for folding in the mirror: none.
Time allowed for putting out a cone; none.
Time allowed for putting the package in a bag to keep it dry; none.
Time allowed for locating an out-of-sight, dry location to release package; none.
Time allowed for walking around the car to make sure the kid you saw behind you isnt hiding someplace; none.
Time allowed for getting out to check clearance when forced to back up in an unfamiliar location; none.
Time allowed for going back to change the delivery notices you left at 4 different apartments because you tried to indirect and the manager was out to lunch; none.
Time allowed for making 3 indirect delivery attempts on a signature required package; none.
Time allowed for making 2 or 3 dozen 8-point turnarounds because your non-power steering pkg car has the turning radius of an aircraft carrier; none.
Time allowed for driving 5 miles uphill in 2nd gear at 11 MPH because your non power-steering pkg car is so underpowered that it cant get out of its own way; none.
Time allowed for bagging smalls; none.
Time allowed for correcting invoice errors on an international shipment; none.
Time allowed for applying highlight tape to all 6 sides of an over-70 lb package; none.
Time allowed for waiting for a customer to fill out ASD's and waybills for an on-call air; none.
Time allowed for waiting for a customer to finish printing the online end-of-day report to scan; none.
Time allowed for sorting and re-handling the 40 stops that you are sent to take off of an overdispatched driver; none.
Time allowed for looking in a map book in an unfamiliar area; none.
Time allowed for verifying the address on a house that doesnt have a visible number; none.
Time allowed for sorting your load when preload forces 400 packages into your P-800; none.
Time allowed for reading and responding to text messages in the DIAD from the center; none.

In I.E. world, none of these things are necessary so there is no need to allow any time for them.
In I.E. world, all the allowances are fair and realistic, and every day is sunshine and lollypops.

Isnt I.E. world a lovely place?

And that is just a drop in the bucket
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
We have gone round and round on this before... I have done countless studies, countless audits, taught classes, and was certified in original analysis. Not once was there any hint of a rigged system out to "screw" a driver.

I've been in these conversations before and there will be nothing I can say.... The response will be that either I'm lying, or so naive that I was fooled by the big conspiracy. There is no way to ever counter an argument like that.

If you lose time, its because they were out to screw you. If you gain time, its because they were out to screw you.

As I said, just like a poor manager. You can't convince them that drivers are not out to screw the company. I can't convince you that work measurement is not conceived to screw a driver.

Finally, you asked about what happens when a driver has a good job setup and good methods, but is still over allowed. What is the recourse? There is something called a variance for cases where the work measurement does not fit. It requires region approval, but I have put in many, many of them.

Its not easy to do, but can be done.

P-Man

p-man, so would having a car that is cubed out on a daily basis be a basis for having a variance on a route? Selection time will be nothing close compared to someone with a walkthrough with proper load quality. If your answer is yes, what would the first step be to get something like that done???
 

brownelf

Well-Known Member
Last week IE had us start 5 min early to review stops from previous weeks timestudy. (ie store/ dock / office ect) it took most of us at least 10 min to do..Why am I not surprized? After 32yrs with the company nothing surprizes me anymore, it is what it is and getting upset over this is pointless.
 
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