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New York Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
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<blockquote data-quote="air_dr" data-source="post: 863596" data-attributes="member: 29929"><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Cachsux, I must again reply back to your words...</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">For those following our discussion:</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-size: 10px">My original comments</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Cachsux response</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="color: #0000cd"><span style="font-size: 10px">My reply to Cachsux</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="color: #b22222"><span style="font-size: 10px">Cachsux back to me</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #b22222"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Me back to Cachsux</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="color: #ff0000"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #ff0000">Traditional according to what you believe.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #000080">Traditional according to what nearly every society (of any religion) over the entire course of human history has believed. </span><span style="color: #000080"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">Traditional to what SOME MEMBERS of nearly every society believe,not the entire population.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Males marrying females is traditional according to what the overwhelming general consensus has been of nearly every society...</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd">I can’t say I agree with your conclusion that we go overboard in this country to accommodate the consciences of others.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd">As another example, on the subject of abortion, I would hate to see the government mandate that all pharmacies carry the morning after pill, even if the pharmacy owner (say a mom and pop operation) did not want to.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a">Why? The morning after pill is not the abortion pill. It is only an extra strength dosage of the normal birth control drug and only prevents pregnancy. If one takes it too late it, and the fertilized cell has implanted into the uterus wall, then it is completely ineffective and you are still preggers. That being said if there was such a mandate treat it like the previously mentioned gay marriage paperwork and treat it like the LEGAL item it is. So religious it threatens your beliefs? Then have your coworker reach over and scan the item and toss it in the bag for you. Conscience clear. By the way, will Mom and Pop still sell those death causing cancer sticks up front in the store? Funny how precious life is until it pops out of the mother and then its on its own.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">Bottom line, I believe each company should be free to not carry a particular item if for whatever reason they choose not to, some people have a problem with that, which I find troubling.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a">I`m pretty sure anyone "cured" of homosexuality was never really a homosexual to start with. As for Dr.Phil, if he is the authority you`re going to turn to as an expert in this situation then the debate has been lost on your part already.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">I have tried to educate myself some on this topic since it has been in the news so much, but I am not an "expert" and I doubt you are either. However, when the person (Spitzer), a liberal, Jewish, atheist, who led the effort to delist homosexuality as a disorder (no fundamentalist preacher), takes the politically incorrect position to say, that while he doesn't particuarly recommend doing so, based on his investigation, he has found homosexuals who have changed their orientation, and are pleased with the result, I am led to believe there is credibility to the idea that, at least some homosexuals who wish to, can change, and people should know, that is an option. <span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">(the wishes of the patient are very important in health care in general)</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #000080"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080"></span><span style="color: #000080"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080">Why should we not, so long as there is understanding and agreement among all the people involved, allow a man to have two wives and afford the same to this loving trio. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">First homosexuals living alone and now having men live with two wives. Cruelty, pure cruelty. (I am being a wise guy)</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">I don't get your sarcasm. Bottom line, where does all this lead and ultimately stop? I see this as a crucial point and question. Based on your ideology, where same sex couples are on the same level as heterosexual couples, who are you to say that a family of a mom and dad and three kids (5 people) is better than a family of a man with two wives and two children, one from each wife? Why can't the latter 5 be on the comapny insurance plan like the former 5. <span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">The rallying cry of many is equality, not just for gays, but the whole LGBT community.</span></span>Think about it, bisexuals must, by definition, be polygamists. Some people love their pets better than some others (sadly) love their children. The pets are their "babies." Why shouldn't they be allowed to claim the pets as dependents on their tax returns, take at least some couterpart to a child tax credit, and get the animals on their health insurance plan from work also?</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">Do you campiagn as vigorusly on the abused women forums on websites or since they meet the criteria for heterosexuality do you just mind your own business?</span><span style="color: #000080"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080"></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Lots of straw here...look at my other posts on BC. I think about and show interest in other things. As for the abused women forums...we can't all be everywhere. Most people are more outraged by cruelty to a child than cruelty to an animal. Does that mean that the person who works full time at an abused animal shelter has her priorites mixed up? Of course not.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd">I am encouraged by the recognition that there is such a thing as a “father unit” and that it is somehow separate and different from a “mother unit.” Tell me more about these units. I have a hard time picturing how the “father unit” of which you speak can rightly be a woman…</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">There`s lots of single moms, some on BC, that can educate you otherwise. Plus, to help settle this part or make it worse (ha ha), you could give the specifics of what you mean as the definition of each unit? My wife and I have been parents for 17 1/2 years and I don`t recall either of us acting as a defined "unit" like I am interpreting from your statements. It`s always been as a team or sometimes "good cop/bad cop". Do you mean this as the specific unit dealing with children of that units sex, such as education of ones similar body? We`ve always discussed it equally in our household so I guess I`m a bit lost as to your meaning.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">I think we're both a bit lost here... YOU originally used the phrase "father unit." It sounded like something I would agree with and wanted to learn more. I also concluded there must be a "mother unit" counterpart.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"></span><span style="color: #0000cd">My mind is drawn to an old Warner Bros. cartoon. An egg is placed under Fog Horn Leg Horn by the dog, and FHLH comes to think he’s laid an egg, and when the egg hatches he’s become a mother. The dog tells the little chick he’s ugly, and FHLH…I…I say FHLH feels “his family’s honor has been insulted and he demands satisfaction.” He and the dog will duke it out and FHLH tells his boy chick were “going to see who the better man is around here: that dog or your mother.” It was hillarious…</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">Once again not exactly the bedrock solid foundation for ones beliefs. What did Dr. Phil and Oprah have to say about this?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">Granted Warner Bros. is not a scholarly work in psychology, but that does not mean powerful truths or great ideas cannot be communicated. "The Places You'll Go" by Dr Seuss speaks of the adventures of life. It <span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">was written for small children, but I have heard it presented powerfully at </span></span>a high school graduation.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd">Men and women can parent equally well. What I am saying is that the man tends to offer something different to the child and the overall family unit than the woman does. That of course does not mean that a father cannot love or that a mother cannot discipline.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd"></span>It not too controversial to say that the primary role model for a child is the parent of the same gender.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a">I disagree on your percieved "controversy". There are countless children who are raised by a single parent of the opposite sex. Does that mean that they are the ones at greatest risk of becoming gay? The best role model is a good parent leading by example, as a good human being, regardless of what sex the parent is.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">But go on to say that a child will miss out on something when raised with a same sex couple, and that statement suddenly becomes very controversial.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd">It is good when that single mom can find a man who can be a father figure to her son. The boy can use that. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">Once again, why? Does mom have to go out and find a man to teach her son how to pee standing up?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a">What are those specific things on a man,or woman,can teach?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd">This is barely scratching the surface: According to research cited by Nicolosi mentioned above, 75% of boys who have a melancholic temperament, a highly protective or domineering mother AND an absent, uninvolved, or rejecting father end up having issues with homosexuality.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000cd"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">OMG! I`m gay! Or am I just one of the lucky 25%? Now I`m confused.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">None of us had a perfect childhood, perfect parents, or a perfect home. We can overcome things. Yes a mom can teach her son to pee standing up just as well as dad...but I think that would be one example of something that, if possible, would be good for dad to teach. There is something different about the relationship between a mother and a son, a father and a son, a mother and a daugther, and a father and a daughter...its far deeper than just teaching the child specific X Y or Z skill like peeing standing up. I think the vast majority of people would agree with that statement...I gotta think about this more...I don't disagree <span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a">The best role model is a good parent leading by example, as a good human being, regardless of what sex the parent is. </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">but I think that is simplistic and imcomplete. See below</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000"></span></span><span style="color: #000080">One one particular edition, Dr Phil was addressing wayward going male teens. The two young men who came in were flunking school, doing drugs, and driving drunk. Dr Phil wisely sent them to a prison to meet with men who had reformed but were still needing to finish their sentences. Those prisoners, I believe, in part because of their age and gender, were able to make an impression on (at least one) of those teens that the middle age, predominantly female audience in the Dr Phil studio shaking their heads going tisk, tisk, could not. Sometimes something needs to be conveyed by a very particular kind of person.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">Once again,Dr Phil. You do know he lost his licsense to practice psycology for inappropriate practices as a Dr? </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">I don't care if Dr. Phil had never had a license, I believe he handled those two young men well for the reasons I described. I wish you would put your biases aside and consider what I am trying to say.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"></span><span style="color: #0000ff">Your response both encourages me and challenges me here because masculinity and femininity are hard for me to define. <span style="font-size: 9px">It’s almost like the Supreme Court judge who, speaking of pornography, said he knew it when he saw it…</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #0000ff"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">Maybe that`s the real problem here. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Coming from me this may surpise you. One example of a person who, in may ways, does not present herself wellas a woman is Sarah Palin. The title of her book "Going Rogue" I'm not retreating, just reloading; and "Moma Grizzly" image I view very unfavorably. In addition my belief that we need someone to bring together, not further divide our broken and polarized Union, such comments coming from a woman, I find especially repugnant.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">My point was my sons have kindness in their hearts and are not afraid to show physical love to people without having someone question their masculinity. My daugther,equally as loving, is also not one to try and bully or treat as a lesser gender or you`ll face the very real risk of having her show you just how weak she isn`t. Lay a hand on her and draw back a stump. All while her retaining her feminiity. Steriotypes are in the eye of the beholder.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Your words above are so encouraging, especially where you expicitly said your daugter, even though she is of hardy stock, RETAINS her femininity.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000">Tell us one thing, just one, that shows how a homosexual relationship anywhere around you is going to adversly affect your life. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">You still haven`t given a specific affect on your life. Only interpretations and perceptions.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">In general, we all benefit from a stable and rightly ordered society, and are hurt by a chaotic one, directly or indirectly. No, we should not be busy bodies, but I do think it is good to think and care about more than just ourselves. 90 year olds concerned about the national debt and money owed to China is a virtuous thing. </span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px">I have a problem with laws that give recognition to relationships that are inherently disordered. I am also concerned about where all this will lead to and stop. (see above) As I grown man, I don't have to worry about being parented by two moms, but, I have my concerns for those who are in that situation and, even more so, issues with elected officials who are alowing such things. I am also troubled by schools who poison children with notions such as "one should not assume one is heterosexual to quickly." At certain seasons of life boys and girls to prefer companions of the same sex. That<span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000"> is normal and t</span></span>he last thing they need is someone troubling and confusing them. </span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #008000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="color: #000080"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">I was watching the news and they had on coverage from NewYork of protests against the gay marraige law...Anway, these people were very vocal to the point that one could feel the hate and anger. The black pastor (I thought God was love?) was spewing the most vile statements in his speach at the top of his lungs, even using the words "fa**ots and queers". </span><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">That is very wrong in my mind. I hope you don't feel I am being hateful, and I don't think you should.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000"></span></span><span style="color: #000080"><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a">I understand, there YOUR objections. But not necisarily all of ours. I don`t think anyone here doesn`t respect your right to them. No one is saying "You must like gays. You must agree with the laws. Etc" However there are lots of folks who share your views who do go out and tell folks "You must not like gays. Etc,etc" </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #000080"></span><span style="color: #a52a2a">This is why of all the people in the world I fear the overly religious the most. It`s not that they have religion. It`s that they are bound and determined to make sure you do also. And it has to be the same as theirs. Or else. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a">Feel free to tell me of your belief. I will tell you mine. But thats it, end of discussion. You have no further reason to try and make me holy any more than I should try and make you sin.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><span style="color: #a52a2a"></span><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #008000">I feel we are having this discussion as equals. I have never felt all the wisdom of the world resided in my cranium. The exchange of ideas between people is a good thing. I do not feel you have to think as I do, but certainly, if you changed your mind as a result of something I wrote, I would not be disappointed, and I am sure you the same way about me. There have been many times where I have changed or at least fine tuned my beliefs. Barack Obama, in speaking on the issue of religion and public life acknowledged how many great social justice movements historically were led by people who had deep religious convictions. He said people should feel free to let religious convictions shape their views on laws and public policy, but that, in order to have credibility, one should seek to articulate ones views in such a way that those who do not share your faith, can see the value of your viewpoint. That is what I have sought to do here.</span></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="air_dr, post: 863596, member: 29929"] [SIZE=1][COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]Cachsux, I must again reply back to your words... For those following our discussion: [/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=2]My original comments [/SIZE][COLOR=#ff0000][SIZE=2][/SIZE][SIZE=2]Cachsux response [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd][SIZE=2]My reply to Cachsux [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#b22222][SIZE=2][/SIZE][SIZE=2]Cachsux back to me [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]Me back to Cachsux [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000] Traditional according to what you believe. [/COLOR][COLOR=#000080]Traditional according to what nearly every society (of any religion) over the entire course of human history has believed. [/COLOR][COLOR=#000080] [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]Traditional to what SOME MEMBERS of nearly every society believe,not the entire population.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]Males marrying females is traditional according to what the overwhelming general consensus has been of nearly every society...[/SIZE] [/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]I can’t say I agree with your conclusion that we go overboard in this country to accommodate the consciences of others. As another example, on the subject of abortion, I would hate to see the government mandate that all pharmacies carry the morning after pill, even if the pharmacy owner (say a mom and pop operation) did not want to. [/COLOR] [COLOR=#a52a2a]Why? The morning after pill is not the abortion pill. It is only an extra strength dosage of the normal birth control drug and only prevents pregnancy. If one takes it too late it, and the fertilized cell has implanted into the uterus wall, then it is completely ineffective and you are still preggers. That being said if there was such a mandate treat it like the previously mentioned gay marriage paperwork and treat it like the LEGAL item it is. So religious it threatens your beliefs? Then have your coworker reach over and scan the item and toss it in the bag for you. Conscience clear. By the way, will Mom and Pop still sell those death causing cancer sticks up front in the store? Funny how precious life is until it pops out of the mother and then its on its own. [SIZE=2][/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]Bottom line, I believe each company should be free to not carry a particular item if for whatever reason they choose not to, some people have a problem with that, which I find troubling.[/COLOR][/SIZE] [COLOR=#a52a2a]I`m pretty sure anyone "cured" of homosexuality was never really a homosexual to start with. As for Dr.Phil, if he is the authority you`re going to turn to as an expert in this situation then the debate has been lost on your part already. [SIZE=2][/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]I have tried to educate myself some on this topic since it has been in the news so much, but I am not an "expert" and I doubt you are either. However, when the person (Spitzer), a liberal, Jewish, atheist, who led the effort to delist homosexuality as a disorder (no fundamentalist preacher), takes the politically incorrect position to say, that while he doesn't particuarly recommend doing so, based on his investigation, he has found homosexuals who have changed their orientation, and are pleased with the result, I am led to believe there is credibility to the idea that, at least some homosexuals who wish to, can change, and people should know, that is an option. [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000](the wishes of the patient are very important in health care in general)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][COLOR=#000080] [/COLOR][COLOR=#000080] Why should we not, so long as there is understanding and agreement among all the people involved, allow a man to have two wives and afford the same to this loving trio. [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]First homosexuals living alone and now having men live with two wives. Cruelty, pure cruelty. (I am being a wise guy) [/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]I don't get your sarcasm. Bottom line, where does all this lead and ultimately stop? I see this as a crucial point and question. Based on your ideology, where same sex couples are on the same level as heterosexual couples, who are you to say that a family of a mom and dad and three kids (5 people) is better than a family of a man with two wives and two children, one from each wife? Why can't the latter 5 be on the comapny insurance plan like the former 5. [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]The rallying cry of many is equality, not just for gays, but the whole LGBT community.[/COLOR][/SIZE]Think about it, bisexuals must, by definition, be polygamists. Some people love their pets better than some others (sadly) love their children. The pets are their "babies." Why shouldn't they be allowed to claim the pets as dependents on their tax returns, take at least some couterpart to a child tax credit, and get the animals on their health insurance plan from work also? [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]Do you campiagn as vigorusly on the abused women forums on websites or since they meet the criteria for heterosexuality do you just mind your own business?[/COLOR][COLOR=#000080] [/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]Lots of straw here...look at my other posts on BC. I think about and show interest in other things. As for the abused women forums...we can't all be everywhere. Most people are more outraged by cruelty to a child than cruelty to an animal. Does that mean that the person who works full time at an abused animal shelter has her priorites mixed up? Of course not.[/SIZE] [/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]I am encouraged by the recognition that there is such a thing as a “father unit” and that it is somehow separate and different from a “mother unit.” Tell me more about these units. I have a hard time picturing how the “father unit” of which you speak can rightly be a woman… [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]There`s lots of single moms, some on BC, that can educate you otherwise. Plus, to help settle this part or make it worse (ha ha), you could give the specifics of what you mean as the definition of each unit? My wife and I have been parents for 17 1/2 years and I don`t recall either of us acting as a defined "unit" like I am interpreting from your statements. It`s always been as a team or sometimes "good cop/bad cop". Do you mean this as the specific unit dealing with children of that units sex, such as education of ones similar body? We`ve always discussed it equally in our household so I guess I`m a bit lost as to your meaning. [/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]I think we're both a bit lost here... YOU originally used the phrase "father unit." It sounded like something I would agree with and wanted to learn more. I also concluded there must be a "mother unit" counterpart.[/SIZE] [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd]My mind is drawn to an old Warner Bros. cartoon. An egg is placed under Fog Horn Leg Horn by the dog, and FHLH comes to think he’s laid an egg, and when the egg hatches he’s become a mother. The dog tells the little chick he’s ugly, and FHLH…I…I say FHLH feels “his family’s honor has been insulted and he demands satisfaction.” He and the dog will duke it out and FHLH tells his boy chick were “going to see who the better man is around here: that dog or your mother.” It was hillarious… [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]Once again not exactly the bedrock solid foundation for ones beliefs. What did Dr. Phil and Oprah have to say about this?[/COLOR] [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]Granted Warner Bros. is not a scholarly work in psychology, but that does not mean powerful truths or great ideas cannot be communicated. "The Places You'll Go" by Dr Seuss speaks of the adventures of life. It [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]was written for small children, but I have heard it presented powerfully at [/COLOR][/SIZE]a high school graduation.[/COLOR][/SIZE] [COLOR=#0000cd]Men and women can parent equally well. What I am saying is that the man tends to offer something different to the child and the overall family unit than the woman does. That of course does not mean that a father cannot love or that a mother cannot discipline. [/COLOR]It not too controversial to say that the primary role model for a child is the parent of the same gender. [COLOR=#a52a2a]I disagree on your percieved "controversy". There are countless children who are raised by a single parent of the opposite sex. Does that mean that they are the ones at greatest risk of becoming gay? The best role model is a good parent leading by example, as a good human being, regardless of what sex the parent is.[/COLOR] [SIZE=2][/SIZE] But go on to say that a child will miss out on something when raised with a same sex couple, and that statement suddenly becomes very controversial. [COLOR=#0000cd]It is good when that single mom can find a man who can be a father figure to her son. The boy can use that. [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]Once again, why? Does mom have to go out and find a man to teach her son how to pee standing up? What are those specific things on a man,or woman,can teach? [/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]This is barely scratching the surface: According to research cited by Nicolosi mentioned above, 75% of boys who have a melancholic temperament, a highly protective or domineering mother AND an absent, uninvolved, or rejecting father end up having issues with homosexuality. [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]OMG! I`m gay! Or am I just one of the lucky 25%? Now I`m confused.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]None of us had a perfect childhood, perfect parents, or a perfect home. We can overcome things. Yes a mom can teach her son to pee standing up just as well as dad...but I think that would be one example of something that, if possible, would be good for dad to teach. There is something different about the relationship between a mother and a son, a father and a son, a mother and a daugther, and a father and a daughter...its far deeper than just teaching the child specific X Y or Z skill like peeing standing up. I think the vast majority of people would agree with that statement...I gotta think about this more...I don't disagree [SIZE=1][COLOR=#a52a2a]The best role model is a good parent leading by example, as a good human being, regardless of what sex the parent is. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]but I think that is simplistic and imcomplete. See below [/COLOR][/SIZE][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2][SIZE=1][COLOR=#a52a2a][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#000080]One one particular edition, Dr Phil was addressing wayward going male teens. The two young men who came in were flunking school, doing drugs, and driving drunk. Dr Phil wisely sent them to a prison to meet with men who had reformed but were still needing to finish their sentences. Those prisoners, I believe, in part because of their age and gender, were able to make an impression on (at least one) of those teens that the middle age, predominantly female audience in the Dr Phil studio shaking their heads going tisk, tisk, could not. Sometimes something needs to be conveyed by a very particular kind of person. [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]Once again,Dr Phil. You do know he lost his licsense to practice psycology for inappropriate practices as a Dr? [/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]I don't care if Dr. Phil had never had a license, I believe he handled those two young men well for the reasons I described. I wish you would put your biases aside and consider what I am trying to say.[/SIZE] [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000ff]Your response both encourages me and challenges me here because masculinity and femininity are hard for me to define. [SIZE=1]It’s almost like the Supreme Court judge who, speaking of pornography, said he knew it when he saw it…[/SIZE] [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]Maybe that`s the real problem here. [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd][/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]Coming from me this may surpise you. One example of a person who, in may ways, does not present herself wellas a woman is Sarah Palin. The title of her book "Going Rogue" I'm not retreating, just reloading; and "Moma Grizzly" image I view very unfavorably. In addition my belief that we need someone to bring together, not further divide our broken and polarized Union, such comments coming from a woman, I find especially repugnant.[/SIZE] [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a] [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]My point was my sons have kindness in their hearts and are not afraid to show physical love to people without having someone question their masculinity. My daugther,equally as loving, is also not one to try and bully or treat as a lesser gender or you`ll face the very real risk of having her show you just how weak she isn`t. Lay a hand on her and draw back a stump. All while her retaining her feminiity. Steriotypes are in the eye of the beholder. [/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]Your words above are so encouraging, especially where you expicitly said your daugter, even though she is of hardy stock, RETAINS her femininity.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]Tell us one thing, just one, that shows how a homosexual relationship anywhere around you is going to adversly affect your life. [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]You still haven`t given a specific affect on your life. Only interpretations and perceptions. [/COLOR][COLOR=#008000][SIZE=2]In general, we all benefit from a stable and rightly ordered society, and are hurt by a chaotic one, directly or indirectly. No, we should not be busy bodies, but I do think it is good to think and care about more than just ourselves. 90 year olds concerned about the national debt and money owed to China is a virtuous thing. I have a problem with laws that give recognition to relationships that are inherently disordered. I am also concerned about where all this will lead to and stop. (see above) As I grown man, I don't have to worry about being parented by two moms, but, I have my concerns for those who are in that situation and, even more so, issues with elected officials who are alowing such things. I am also troubled by schools who poison children with notions such as "one should not assume one is heterosexual to quickly." At certain seasons of life boys and girls to prefer companions of the same sex. That[SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000] is normal and t[/COLOR][/SIZE]he last thing they need is someone troubling and confusing them. [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=#000080] [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]I was watching the news and they had on coverage from NewYork of protests against the gay marraige law...Anway, these people were very vocal to the point that one could feel the hate and anger. The black pastor (I thought God was love?) was spewing the most vile statements in his speach at the top of his lungs, even using the words "fa**ots and queers". [/COLOR][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]That is very wrong in my mind. I hope you don't feel I am being hateful, and I don't think you should. [/COLOR][/SIZE][COLOR=#000080][SIZE=1][COLOR=#a52a2a]I understand, there YOUR objections. But not necisarily all of ours. I don`t think anyone here doesn`t respect your right to them. No one is saying "You must like gays. You must agree with the laws. Etc" However there are lots of folks who share your views who do go out and tell folks "You must not like gays. Etc,etc" [/COLOR][/SIZE] [/COLOR][COLOR=#a52a2a]This is why of all the people in the world I fear the overly religious the most. It`s not that they have religion. It`s that they are bound and determined to make sure you do also. And it has to be the same as theirs. Or else. Feel free to tell me of your belief. I will tell you mine. But thats it, end of discussion. You have no further reason to try and make me holy any more than I should try and make you sin. [/COLOR][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]I feel we are having this discussion as equals. I have never felt all the wisdom of the world resided in my cranium. The exchange of ideas between people is a good thing. I do not feel you have to think as I do, but certainly, if you changed your mind as a result of something I wrote, I would not be disappointed, and I am sure you the same way about me. There have been many times where I have changed or at least fine tuned my beliefs. Barack Obama, in speaking on the issue of religion and public life acknowledged how many great social justice movements historically were led by people who had deep religious convictions. He said people should feel free to let religious convictions shape their views on laws and public policy, but that, in order to have credibility, one should seek to articulate ones views in such a way that those who do not share your faith, can see the value of your viewpoint. That is what I have sought to do here.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
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