Ohio local 348 gets special treatment?

[chuchu]

Read the 4th page of the link you posted (vote count), it does state 407 is already in Central States. What is the ratio of part-time vs full-time? As far as filing a grievance maybe you have filed a grievance but you didn't respond about presenting grievances or negotiating contracts. It's easy to criticize and say what you would do until you are sitting in that seat. I am not a "troll" but I guess if you can't respond you resort to calling people a troll to deflect.

You maybe have the wrong person? I never posted a link.
And yes, I presented and signed for about 85 grievances in a year until the whole management team was replaced and some quit. I know about setting in "that seat". I know about being called names, my job being threatened multiple times (and winning the grievances anyway) and the BA trying to get me fired for not supporting Obama. Don't assume what you don't know.
If I had a chance to negotiate this contract and had the staff to back me I sure as heck wouldn't be posting on this site to relieve stress. Take that wherever you want to go with it but don't ever demean a brother that has a whole centers support and respect because I stick up for the members no matter what the cost. Your opinion means nothing to me but I post on this site to challenge the mindset that we have to let the IBT run over us at will and screw the least financially stable workers in this union. This contract sucks in regards to the lower seniority drivers and part time Americans. You think TDU sucks? So does Hoffa and Hall and I'm embarrassed to have to tell the part time members in the center where I work that the membership let them down. For no good reason.

 

[chuchu]

Do you read what you post?

The OMS types it for us.

 

[Stonefish]

You maybe have the wrong person? I never posted a link.
And yes, I presented and signed for about 85 grievances in a year until the whole management team was replaced and some quit. I know about setting in "that seat". I know about being called names, my job being threatened multiple times (and winning the grievances anyway) and the BA trying to get me fired for not supporting Obama. Don't assume what you don't know.
If I had a chance to negotiate this contract and had the staff to back me I sure as heck wouldn't be posting on this site to relieve stress. Take that wherever you want to go with it but don't ever demean a brother that has a whole centers support and respect because I stick up for the members no matter what the cost. Your opinion means nothing to me but I post on this site to challenge the mindset that we have to let the IBT run over us at will and screw the least financially stable workers in this union. This contract sucks in regards to the lower seniority drivers and part time Americans. You think TDU sucks? So does Hoffa and Hall and I'm embarrassed to have to tell the part time members in the center where I work that the membership let them down. For no good reason.

So you stopped filing grievances when management quit? Doesn't make sense. Everything just got better? If you were doing such a great job settling grievances by yourself why did they have to get filed in the first place? Your BA should be settling a grievance once they are filed. As far as your BA allegedly trying to get you fired for not supporting Obama did you do anything about it? I would love to know what local that was in. If you ever had a chance to negotiate a contract you would have a totally different outlook when the responsibility of thousands of members not just a select few employees in one center. You never have to let anyone walk all over you but to say you or your coworker got screwed without being in negotiations and knowing what actually happened is an injustice to all of those involved and trying to do the right thing by the membership. Maybe what happened those people actually protected the future of you and the employees in your center. The contract does not suck you just didn't get everything you wanted. That's why they call it negotiations. I never said a word about TDU they have their right to their opinion. I don't have to agree with it. If you were at UPS in 97 I can not recall them ever saying a bad thing about him. I am in no way saying the current administration is perfect but I do think they do the best job possible with the state of the economy, the fact that the majority of members do not go to meetings, do not help in organizing drives, do not get involved in politics to get rid of the politicians who support anti union legislation, etc. The local i am in is a good local if yours isn't you shouldn't blame that on the IBT. You can feel they let you down i don't. It is hard enough to organize it doesn't help when people say the union is constantly screwing them.

 

[chuchu]

So you stopped filing grievances when management quit? Doesn't make sense. Everything just got better? If you were doing such a great job settling grievances by yourself why did they have to get filed in the first place? Your BA should be settling a grievance once they are filed. As far as your BA allegedly trying to get you fired for not supporting Obama did you do anything about it? I would love to know what local that was in. If you ever had a chance to negotiate a contract you would have a totally different outlook when the responsibility of thousands of members not just a select few employees in one center. You never have to let anyone walk all over you but to say you or your coworker got screwed without being in negotiations and knowing what actually happened is an injustice to all of those involved and trying to do the right thing by the membership. Maybe what happened those people actually protected the future of you and the employees in your center. The contract does not suck you just didn't get everything you wanted. That's why they call it negotiations. I never said a word about TDU they have their right to their opinion. I don't have to agree with it. If you were at UPS in 97 I can not recall them ever saying a bad thing about him. I am in no way saying the current administration is perfect but I do think they do the best job possible with the state of the economy, the fact that the majority of members do not go to meetings, do not help in organizing drives, do not get involved in politics to get rid of the politicians who support anti union legislation, etc. The local i am in is a good local if yours isn't you shouldn't blame that on the IBT. You can feel they let you down i don't. It is hard enough to organize it doesn't help when people say the union is constantly screwing them.

Don't put words in my mouth to develops your response. Yes, we went from 85 to 5 the next year. You have no clue what our grievances were about.
I am not upset about what I "didn't get". Where did you read that in my post? I AM UPSET ABOUT WHAT WE GAVE UP. Read that. You are a very confused person.
I was on the strike line in 97 with a kid in college. Economic condition? Ups netted 1 billion in 96 with pkg volume at 11 million per day. Today we net over 4 times that amount with a little over 50% more volume (approx) and 10% less drivers in our center. Have you read the new Inside UPS yet? Check out the FedEx/ UPS comparison chart. We, the company, are doing very well. Say what you want, your opinion isn't shared by me and many others. Don't take my picture and paint it your way. If you found out what local I'm in I'm sure that would change our world.

 

[Stonefish]

Don't put words in my mouth to develops your response. Yes, we went from 85 to 5 the next year. You have no clue what our grievances were about and neither can you sort out who negotiated he contract(s). I am not upset about what I "didn't get". Where did you read that in my post? I AM UPSET ABOUT WHAT WE GAVE UP. Read that. You are a very confused person. Is that stone or stoned?

That was funny. So who negotiated the contracts? You? If you did you know how negotiations work. If you didn't you should learn more about it and actually try it. You might understand the process then. It isn't sitting around looking for ways to upset the members it's trying to do what's best for them. Sometimes people don't like the results. If you did processed 85 grievances in a year I'm sure you didn't make everyone of your members happy with all 85 of them. If you can make everyone happy you deal with tell me where i can come get a job with you. It might just be a perfect world. I am fine with you and others being upset, my issue is with the comments about being "screwed" by their union. There are alot of good union brothers and sisters who do a good job for the members they represent, we have several in my local. Our stewards and officials do a good job for the members. They deserve credit not criticism for the work they do. How many people show up at you union meetings? How many showed up at your proposal meeting? Does anyone talk with those who live next to you or even their family to look at what is happening around the world and actually have a sense of reality instead of entitlement? People say I would pay $50 a week to keep my healthcare in the UPS. The reality is they wouldn't and UPS is not going to have that plan next year or any year after that. The progression is too long. The part-time employees don't make enough. Where do you think the money for wages, benefits, high back seats in feeders, triple time for 9.5 grievances, the right to force the company to hire drivers, etc. comes from? Local 348 has their own healthcare plan. They have had that plan since probably before we were born and no one cared. I am sure it's a good plan, it's a good local but the reality is look at all healthcare plans around the country not just UPS or union plans and see the funding levels and benefit levels of those plans. Being upset is fine you shouldn't be a sheep you should have the right to voice your opinion. I just don't agree when people think they got screwed when something changes they aren't happy with. It served no purpose for the IBT or local officials to upset the members, they have to get re-elected.

 

[Stonefish]

Don't put words in my mouth to develops your response. Yes, we went from 85 to 5 the next year. You have no clue what our grievances were about.
I am not upset about what I "didn't get". Where did you read that in my post? I AM UPSET ABOUT WHAT WE GAVE UP. Read that. You are a very confused person.
I was on the strike line in 97 with a kid in college. Economic condition? Ups netted 1 billion in 96 with pkg volume at 11 million per day. Today we net over 4 times that amount with a little over 50% more volume (approx) and 10% less drivers in our center. Have you read the new Inside UPS yet? Check out the FedEx/ UPS comparison chart. We, the company, are doing very well. Say what you want, your opinion isn't shared by me and many others. Don't take my picture and paint it your way. If you found out what local I'm in I'm sure that would change our world.

I also was on the strike line in 97 and was discharged after it. My local did their job and i was taken care of. I appreciated their support and supported them and got more involved after that. I doesn't sound like you feel that way about you local which is unfortunate. There is no doubt UPS is making money off our hard work but my opinion is we need to make sure they continue to make those profits now and in the future so we can continue to provide for our families. I am not painting any pictures of you or anyone else. Take a step back and look at your posts you've painted the picture not me.

 

[Anonymous 10]

That was funny. So who negotiated the contracts? You? If you did you know how negotiations work. If you didn't you should learn more about it and actually try it. You might understand the process then. It isn't sitting around looking for ways to upset the members it's trying to do what's best for them. Sometimes people don't like the results. If you did processed 85 grievances in a year I'm sure you didn't make everyone of your members happy with all 85 of them. If you can make everyone happy you deal with tell me where i can come get a job with you. It might just be a perfect world. I am fine with you and others being upset, my issue is with the comments about being "screwed" by their union. There are alot of good union brothers and sisters who do a good job for the members they represent, we have several in my local. Our stewards and officials do a good job for the members. They deserve credit not criticism for the work they do. How many people show up at you union meetings? How many showed up at your proposal meeting? Does anyone talk with those who live next to you or even their family to look at what is happening around the world and actually have a sense of reality instead of entitlement? People say I would pay $50 a week to keep my healthcare in the UPS. The reality is they wouldn't and UPS is not going to have that plan next year or any year after that. The progression is too long. The part-time employees don't make enough. Where do you think the money for wages, benefits, high back seats in feeders, triple time for 9.5 grievances, the right to force the company to hire drivers, etc. comes from? Local 348 has their own healthcare plan. They have had that plan since probably before we were born and no one cared. I am sure it's a good plan, it's a good local but the reality is look at all healthcare plans around the country not just UPS or union plans and see the funding levels and benefit levels of those plans. Being upset is fine you shouldn't be a sheep you should have the right to voice your opinion. I just don't agree when people think they got screwed when something changes they aren't happy with. It served no purpose for the IBT or local officials to upset the members, they have to get re-elected.

Is your name Obi Wan Kenobi???????? You seem like a wise man. Are you related to Inthegame??

 

[chuchu]

That was funny. So who negotiated the contracts? You? If you did you know how negotiations work. If you didn't you should learn more about it and actually try it. You might understand the process then. It isn't sitting around looking for ways to upset the members it's trying to do what's best for them. Sometimes people don't like the results. If you did processed 85 grievances in a year I'm sure you didn't make everyone of your members happy with all 85 of them. If you can make everyone happy you deal with tell me where i can come get a job with you. It might just be a perfect world. I am fine with you and others being upset, my issue is with the comments about being "screwed" by their union. There are alot of good union brothers and sisters who do a good job for the members they represent, we have several in my local. Our stewards and officials do a good job for the members. They deserve credit not criticism for the work they do. How many people show up at you union meetings? How many showed up at your proposal meeting? Does anyone talk with those who live next to you or even their family to look at what is happening around the world and actually have a sense of reality instead of entitlement? People say I would pay $50 a week to keep my healthcare in the UPS. The reality is they wouldn't and UPS is not going to have that plan next year or any year after that. The progression is too long. The part-time employees don't make enough. Where do you think the money for wages, benefits, high back seats in feeders, triple time for 9.5 grievances, the right to force the company to hire drivers, etc. comes from? Local 348 has their own healthcare plan. They have had that plan since probably before we were born and no one cared. I am sure it's a good plan, it's a good local but the reality is look at all healthcare plans around the country not just UPS or union plans and see the funding levels and benefit levels of those plans. Being upset is fine you shouldn't be a sheep you should have the right to voice your opinion. I just don't agree when people think they got screwed when something changes they aren't happy with. It served no purpose for the IBT or local officials to upset the members, they have to get re-elected.

I hope this bunch doesn't get reelected and "changes"....is that your word for a 4 yrs progression, not being able to file a 9.5 for 4 yrs, using single day vac coverage drivers all year long without covering vacations to keep part timers from getting full time jobs?
Yeah, that's change. For the worst. Screwed fits, oh wise one. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not. This is a huge waste of time. Are you with DRIVE? Should be.

 

[Bubblehead]

Bubblehead........ UPS Teamsters to varying degrees focus on achieving the following employment related goals:

1) Strengthening our own personal position at UPS (better wages, pensions, general contract language that affects them personally)
2) Strengthening the position of our co-workers at UPS (concern over part-time wages, progression, etc.)
3) Strengthening the position of the Union at UPS (insuring that our Union representation exists well into the future)

Each one of us has individual feelings on how much emphasis we put toward achieving any one or a combination of these three goals. In a perfect world, we should care equally about all of them. They are integrated and and all equally important. In reality and unfortunately, there is a significant number of UPSers that put more emphasis on only achieving goal number 1. Some, like yourself and others I believe...... truly do care about all of them equally.

I am a believer in constructive criticism of our Union leadership if it has the potential of achieving goal #3. There comes a time however when constant criticism can actually weaken our Union and create division. I have asked myself many times at what point do I stop criticizing and start supporting our Union leadership which hopefully leads to achieving goal #3. The truth is.... none of us actually has all the information to be critical of our Union leadership on a continuing basis.... UNLESS....we absolutely...undeniably have ALL the facts, considerations, etc.. that that they face when making decisions. Negotiations are far more complex than most people will ever realize. At some point....I believe it is important to put your faith in our leadership, unite, and move forward knowing that our representatives did the best they could under the conditions at that time. I trusted Ken H back in 1997.....I still have faith in him today...

I'm really not that different in my skepticism, criticism, and beliefs than you Bubblehead. Our only difference is that I now want to move forward with the language we have and make the best of it. Am I happy with all the language?....not at all. I don't like part-timers having to wait 4 years for top wage when they already waited 10+ years to go driving. Does it affect me personally....no. I truly believe that this whole package is simply "dollars and cents" on one big Excel spreadsheet. There is a bottom line number that remains the same (the SUM...the maximum that UPS will compensate...the last, best, and final offer if you will) while individual categories are changed. Yes....the part-time column often does subsidize the full-time wages and benefits.... which in reality is not all that unfair from a Union leadership perspective. Hopefully we will see this "bottleneck" of part-timers waiting for driving jobs ease as the new pension amounts take effect 1/1/14.

A very well written post, but incomplete.
You forgot the fourth goal, which in reality may trump the other three.

4?) Strengthen the overall financial position of the IBT.

It is very hard to reaffirm "trust" in officials who engaged in a pattern deception and half truths.
Like you, I long to move forward, but not through blind faith in officials who didn't trust us enough to give us the truth that we deserve.

In the end, I agree that goal 4?) is very important.
But it shouldn't be at the expense of integrity and transparency.

 

[Stonefish]

I hope this bunch doesn't get reelected and "changes"....is that your word for a 4 yrs progression, not being able to file a 9.5 for 4 yrs, using single day vac coverage drivers all year long without covering vacations to keep part timers from getting full time jobs?
Yeah, that's change. For the worst. Screwed fits, oh wise one. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not. This is a huge waste of time. Are you with DRIVE? Should be.

Again funny one no i am not with DRIVE I am a member of DRIVE and support it. I am a driver though. The language in Article 37 does not prohibit a driver from filing a grievance for 4 years. That is not how it is applied. I am assuming you are in the Central Region because of your reference to single day vacation drivers. It is not intended to be applied the way YOU are reading it. If they are you should grieve for more drivers if they are using single day drivers in violation of the contract. The goal is to make more full-time jobs that is why the language in Article 37 gives us the right to file a grievance and an arbitrator to force the Company to hire drivers and award back pay. Although I understand your concern about the 4 year progression it is again negotiation. I am truly sorry you feel the way you do about the contract but again take a step back and at some point think about the positives instead of constantly thinking of all of what you perceive to be negative. It would have been nice for someone to explain the changes to you in more detail so you could possibly understand them better and maybe your outlook would be different maybe not. I can't help that part. I do not fault you for your opinions. We just disagree with each other on some issues. It isn't personal. On a different note thanks to you and anonymous for the oh wise one comment I appreciate it.

 

[Inthegame]

A very well written post, but incomplete.
You forgot the fourth goal, which in reality may trump the other three.

4?) Strengthen the overall financial position of the IBT.

It is very hard to reaffirm "trust" in officials who engaged in a pattern deception and half truths.
Like you, I long to move forward, but not through blind faith in officials who didn't trust us enough to give us the truth that we deserve.

In the end, I agree that goal 4?) is very important.
But it shouldn't be at the expense of integrity and transparency.

An increase in wages will provide a dues increase that will strengthen the IBT marginally but locals actually fear a reduction in dues as the four year progression keeps members at the lower rates one additional year hence less dues. The three year progression has had an detrimental impact already. Add in enhancements to pension rates which will entice more senior (highest dues payers) members into retirement and the impact could become severe. A senior FT pays around $82+ per month. A new drivers dues are half that, which corresponds to less per capita for the IBT.
If indeed the IBT lacked integrity and transparency and only was seeking point 4, they'd have pushed hard for wage increases and tank bennys.
Lengthy progression is hard on everyone.

 

[chuchu]

i

Again funny one no i am not with DRIVE I am a member of DRIVE and support it. I am a driver though. The language in Article 37 does not prohibit a driver from filing a grievance for 4 years. That is not how it is applied. I am assuming you are in the Central Region because of your reference to single day vacation drivers. It is not intended to be applied the way YOU are reading it. If they are you should grieve for more drivers if they are using single day drivers in violation of the contract. The goal is to make more full-time jobs that is why the language in Article 37 gives us the right to file a grievance and an arbitrator to force the Company to hire drivers and award back pay. Although I understand your concern about the 4 year progression it is again negotiation. I am truly sorry you feel the way you do about the contract but again take a step back and at some point think about the positives instead of constantly thinking of all of what you perceive to be negative. It would have been nice for someone to explain the changes to you in more detail so you could possibly understand them better and maybe your outlook would be different maybe not. I can't help that part. I do not fault you for your opinions. We just disagree with each other on some issues. It isn't personal. On a different note thanks to you and anonymous for the oh wise one comment I appreciate it.

How do you grieve what hasn't been implemented in reference to the single day vacation driver coverage? The proposed contract is clear that they can be used all year long with volume fluctuations.
We WERE made aware of the language change interpretation by our BA. I disagree with your assessments of the limitation of lesser seniority (<4 yrs) to file 9.5 grievances.
We had to protest the MMI "sudden death" clause in the Central and the "service, safety and methods" language that was added to 17i to get them removed. It appears that we are negotiating with the union now. Haven't heard a peep out of the company because the union has been pushing this contract.
There's no use argueing about what you or I think is a worthy contract because I believe that I hold the union negotiations to a higher standard than you do in performance during highly profitable years and many of us drivers and stewards believe that the members were greatly short changed in communication and support. As a steward I know what happens when language is left open to interpretation and I have no faith in this IBT leadership now. We are the ones left to defend our coworkers when this is all done.
They've earned the distrust we feel. I've never had negative feelings about Hall but thousands of us do now. I'm not on a witch hunt here. But we have never felt like we have had to fight so hard against our own leadership as we have this contract and the IBT and our BAs agreed that it was handled very wrong from the beginning. The feeling of betrayal runs deep and it's very much justified. This whole deal has been a butchered affair and it sure as heck hasn't been the members fault. This union will never be the same unless we get new leadership and that leadership quits sleeping with the enemy.

 

[Bubblehead]

An increase in wages will provide a dues increase that will strengthen the IBT marginally but locals actually fear a reduction in dues as the four year progression keeps members at the lower rates one additional year hence less dues. The three year progression has had an detrimental impact already. Add in enhancements to pension rates which will entice more senior (highest dues payers) members into retirement and the impact could become severe. A senior FT pays around $82+ per month. A new drivers dues are half that, which corresponds to less per capita for the IBT.
If indeed the IBT lacked integrity and transparency and only was seeking point 4, they'd have pushed hard for wage increases and tank bennys.
Lengthy progression is hard on everyone.

You're right!!!
This contract is like an onion, the more layers I peel back, the more my eyes water.
I'm going to VOTE NO AGAIN!!!!

 

[Bubblehead]

Is your name Obi Wan Kenobi???????? You seem like a wise man. Are you related to Inthegame??

I think Stonefish has a crush on chuchu?

 

[chuchu]

I think Stonefish has a crush on chuchu?

Don't start it. I think it's pronounced "stoned" fish.

 

[Stonefish]

How do you grieve what hasn't been implemented in reference to the single day vacation driver coverage? The proposed contract is clear that they can be used all year long with volume fluctuations.
We WERE made aware of the language change interpretation by our BA. I disagree with your assessments of the limitation of lesser seniority (<4 yrs) to file 9.5 grievances.
We had to protest the MMI "sudden death" clause in the Central and the "service, safety and methods" language that was added to 17i to get them removed. It appears that we are negotiating with the union now. Haven't heard a peep out of the company because the union has been pushing this contract.
There's no use argueing about what you or I think is a worthy contract because I believe that I hold the union negotiations to a higher standard than you do in performance during highly profitable years and many of us drivers and stewards believe that the members were greatly short changed in communication and support. As a steward I know what happens when language is left open to interpretation and I have no faith in this IBT leadership now. We are the ones left to defend our coworkers when this is all done.
They've earned the distrust we feel. I've never had negative feelings about Hall but thousands of us do now. I'm not on a witch hunt here. But we have never felt like we have had to fight so hard against our own leadership as we have this contract and the IBT and our BAs agreed that it was handled very wrong from the beginning. The feeling of betrayal runs deep and it's very much justified. This whole deal has been a butchered affair and it sure as heck hasn't been the members fault. This union will never be the same unless we get new leadership and that leadership quits sleeping with the enemy.

The language in the contract is retro active so i would grieve now and when the contract does get ratified it will go back. We have grievances over the issue now. The interpretations you are getting i don't feel are accurate with regards to everything you mentioned above.The MMI language has been in the Southern Region for several years without incident but the law would supersede the contract language and someone would also have ADA language we have several coworkers that use it. The safety, service and methods was put in there so rouge center manager would not be able to take someone out of service for not wearing a seatbelt, not grabbing a handrail or not delivering a NDA on time like they have tried to do in the past. I might agree with you on the communications you received but not that didn't happen with me.

 

[Stonefish]

I think Stonefish has a crush on chuchu?

I always had a thing for southern girls. Are you one of them???

 

[Stonefish]

Don't start it. I think it's pronounced "stoned" fish.

Sounds like bobblehead is jealous your talking to me instead of him.

 

[chuchu]

I always had a thing for southern girls. Are you one of them???

I wasn't there when I got up this morning.

 

[chuchu]

I always had a thing for southern girls. Are you one of them???

No, but my mom is.she is still upset with my dad for dragging her up north. Especially in the winter time.