Pilots - Here we go!

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
Hey guys, for one I am thankful for you sharing your expertise with us. IT is refreshing to know how the quiet (well at least before a strike) service operates. We dont hear much from you all except when the air is late because of weather or mechanical failures.

d
 
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U

Unregistered

Guest
dannyboy said:
"but you have 2500 pilots walk at peak, and you have big problems."

YEah, let them walk at peak and see what happens. Nothing like getting a black eye in the public arena of ideals. IF they manage to let the union call the strike at peak, and Hoffa calls the drivers out in support, look for massive crossings over the line. And look for 50-80% lay offs as a merry Christmas. All the way down the line.

The union won the public support in the last strike, sorta, but this one will bite them big time.

d

Have you changed your mind?
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
The wheels didn't just depart the aircraft on landing. This guy hit so hard it drove the hole nosegear assy thru and into the fuselage. HARD LANDING. Happens all the time..50 mil dollar airplane almost destroyed. Would of been if someone else owned it..Stop talking about on time. You make us (the $8:50 h/r) sit out in the rain. snow,heat just to get an on time instead of leaving early. We have 2 jobs, some guy's have 3 jobs, and a family to get home to..Cut that out also..
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
During the over 70lb wildcat stike the only 3 people to show up for work(cross the picket line) was the 727 crew. They got a ride over in the fuel truck so they can say they didn't cross picket line. So you do actually have scabs in your group...
 

scratch

Least Best Moderator
Staff member
I appreciate the info that Brown Bus Driver posts. As a driver, we don't hear much about what is going on in the pilot's job. I work in an area just below the Atlanta Airport in Delta country and am seeing firsthand all the turmoil going on with the Delta and Northwest employees. I still see a lot of Eastern Airlines bumper stickers on the cars around here. I hope that UPS does wise up and settle with the pilots as I believe that from a monetary point, what they want is not that much. Everytime that the company tangles with a union too far they seem to pay out a lot more than if they had just got together and agreed to a reasonable deal. And by the way, the MD-11 is a handful to land sometimes. A friend of mine works for the Flight Simulator Division at Delta and during the Christmas holidays when they have a light schedule, they let my son's Boy Scout Troop come in to play. I usually get to fly the MD-11 Sim, which is an older one. They are easy to take off, but I usually crash about 75% of the time on landing! I need to stick to my 2005 Freightliner P700D.
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
Your welcome. I have never flown the MD, but it does have a bad safety record, that is every where. FedEx has lost a couple. The nose gear problem was unfortunate, but as far as the information I have, which is not official, everyone tried to do their job, but it happened.

As far as the Houston thing goes, well, I was there in SDF that evening. I was about inches from being on that flight. I talked to the Capt right before he walked out the door. I know the FO, and have talked to him. I have often thought that could have been me.

No one, and I mean NO ONE in the operation from the top down blamed that accident on the crew, infact, it is the primary reason we now operate out of IAH.

There are always pressure on everyone, managers, mechanics, dispatchers, and the pilots to make service. It is the untimate responsibility of the crew, the Captain, to make sure that in the end the process can be done safely. The dispatchers play a very important role here, but ultimately, I have to sign the release and accept the aircraft.

Most people who comment on the ability/judgement of a pilots actions after the incident/accident fail to remember that the first person on the scene of the accident is the crew. The risk to us is real, and frankly, we appreciate everyone who contibutes to the process of getting us home safely each day.

I do this for a living, I'm working on my 6000 hr flying UPS aircraft, and I can not statistically afford to ignore the hazards or take unnecessary risk. I might have to make a decision that will affect service, maybe even not make it at all. The problem with relating that decision to management or ground personal, is that making service is their single mission, not mine. I must always make my decisions based on the collective knowledge of myself, my crew, and my support from ops, you guys. My primary decision is "can this operation be completed safely". Excluding the input of the dispatchers and mechanics, everyone else is focused on service, not safety.

My decision must always put safety above service, it is a very unique position. I have to do this every day at work. That is the job.

With almost 9000 hours of flighttime, I do not approach my decision from a perspective of fear, but one of respect for this job/profession that is extremely unforgiving of mistakes and bad judgement. Even if I make my decisions from this perspective, and an accident still happens. Everything I did or said will be analyzed and judged from a safety standpoint, not service. Dead or alive, I will be judged.

Maybe that is why we are considered arrogant. I don't know, I try my hardest everyday at work to approach all interactions with my fellow employees and supervisors with a sense of humbleness, but in the end it is my ass, and that of the crew who puts their trust in me. I try to explain to all others, even those who disagree with my decisions that this is the job you entrusted me with, and I get paid to make these decisions.

I try every day to make the system work. I work everyday to make it safe. I have to do this for almost 20 more years.

I don't think the pilots are heros, or above anyone here, but we are given great responsibility and I find it frustrating arguing with people who are singuarly focused on money, about justifying my compensation.

Unfortuately, I have become cynical enough about my employment here to believe that I and the IPA are the only ones with me and mine(my families) best interests at heart. We want guarantees of a livable schedule, we want support and facilities equal to that of our peers at FedEx, and yes, we want compensation for the skills and experience we bring to the company. Exactly how much, well, there lies the negotiations.

I appreciate all your work, and patience in this process. I'm sure I have probably talked to you over the radio or directly in the past years.

As for the others who, for their own personal reasons of monetary gain, who would make the pilots out as the enemy, well, that has been the problem from the moment I step out of the training center as a FE here. You always considered us the enemy, outsiders, not worthy of integrity or honor. No pilot gets hired at UPS angry or cyncial, we become that way here.

This job has been and continues to be a great blessing, but I am no man's servant. I do not survive by your leave, nor does my family. Am I worried about our future here, HELL YES, but I have every confidence both morally and mentally, that I am standing on the "right" side of this confrontation.

Here is my question for management. How did 2600 people of very diverse backgrounds and experience become so unified in their defiance? Are we brain washed? No, you made us this way. You could replace us all, and continue you current attitude and policies of placing your dividends above our health, safety and yes, compensation, and you will find your self exactly in the same place 10 years from now. That is my humble opinion.

I don't hate UPS, not at all. Do I love UPS, no, it is a corporation, it has no ability to love me back. I reserve love for that which has the ability to return love.

BrownBusDriver,
A humble A300 Captain
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
"No pilot gets hired at UPS angry or cyncial, we become that way here."

Funny, we drivers say we weren't a/hs before we worked here. We used to be nice guys. UPS made us a/hs.

Anyhow, the average rank and file driver wants to back the pilots 100%. The question is will Mr. Hoffa stand with us?
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
ScratchKing,

I appreciate your kind comments. I do not speak for the IPA, only as a line pilot for UPS.

I would like to add that I for one appreicate the fact that the history and future of UPS lies with the relationships that the drivers make and maintain every day with the business and private citizens you deliver to. I think you guys work harder than anyone in our industry.

I also hope that from our perspective, that we will be compensated, like you, only that which we negotiate fairly. We are now at a cross roads of these negotiations, and it has again, unfortunately come down to more agressive attitudes and tactics.

I hate the fact that the company seems to thrive in piting one group against another, to their own benefit. These actions in the end serve no one, and only take away from the fact that the competition is at the gates.

We, the pilot group, are negotiating compensation and benefits reflecting what we believe is our primary conpetition group, FedEx. We have spent years in the past listening to the company tell us we are not an airline, and that we should not aspire to "airline" pilots compensations. Now that the passenger carrying industry is being gutted, we are now being told that pasenger carrying pilots are our "peer group".

The fact of the matter is that our industry is thriving, and this group has helped expand the customer base well beyond the shores of the US to allow access to markets around the world. We have been promised compensation for almost 20 years, and now are being told we are extravagent. We have worked to build this system at sub-standard compensation, sub-standard work rules and facilities. We are tired of the promises that patience will provide solutions, while a few at this company profited to the extreme. Jim Kelly, our former CEO, and who I believe was the single figure in 1997 strike, exercised no less than 9 million dollars of options on UPS stock in the past year alone.

We are not your enemy. We might not have that much in common in our daily work lives, but rest assured that as in the past, the IPA will in your future stand by you to assure your success at claiming your fair share of the spoils of this great and profitable company. We have shown this time and time again.

If you have any question, please ask. I will to the best of my limited ability try to supply answers.

Best to you and yours,

BrownBusDriver
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
moreluck said:
Last night's news mentioned that Delta Airlines could be going under.......those Delta pilots will need a new home.


It took almost 3 months to train me for my new position on the A300. I have worked for UPS for more than 10 years. If the pilot group was to be replaced, even by seasoned and experienced pilots, it would take the training center more than a year to replace us. We barely were able to train the 275 new hires this year, many of who did work for USAir, Delta, and United.

Our job requires by FAA standards, company specific training. This training isn't optional. The company tried to hire 300 pilots this year, but recurrent training doesn't allow for that much training.

Could we be replaced, yes, but at what cost? It would surely make more sense to negotiate a fair and reasonable pace, than to replace us. It is also my strong belief that the company would find themselves at the same position of relationship with this new group in a very short amount of time.

Are the crewmembers of UPS brainwashed by the union. Most, as a matter of fact, probably came to UPS without much experience or enthusiasm for unions. Frankly, former military officers don't consider themselves strong union supports. The facts are that our current union president is a former Marine General, and our secretary is a current Air Force General in the reserves. Most came to the company originally, very thankful for the job, having been through Eastern, Continental, Braniff, and Frontier airlines demise. Their experience with unions isn't what most would consider a sucessful past, but here they are, IPA supporters all.

It isn't that the average IPA member supports all the union actions to the last man without question. I for one have been very critical of our actions in the past, and said so out loud. I am not alone. What you will find, to a man and woman at this point, a group convienced that the management of this company is willing to take advantage of us with out constrant to justify their own profit and ambitions.

Pay cuts? Who working for a living here will have to take a pay cut for the pilots? The board, no. Our CEO has had over 25% worth of raises in the past two years alone. The majority stock holders outside of funds are still the managers. They are the only ones truly worried about cuts, cuts in their options and bonuses.

I for one have never gotten a bonus, I work for a living, as do many of the managers, but my only compensation is that which the IPA negotiates on my behalf, with my support.

You might get some Delta pilots, but the fact is other than the faces, they would in the end reflect the same concerns and expectations that the current pilots.

BrownBusDriver
 

tieguy

Banned
What you will find, to a man and woman at this point, a group convienced that the management of this company is willing to take advantage of us with out constrant to justify their own profit and ambitions.

Pretty harsh statement don't you think? In fairness to the negotiating process it does appear UPS has been very quiet and positive in discussing these negotiations. At the same time it appears your union has been somewhat antaganistic in its approach with the full page ads in various newspapers. I understand these tactics on your unions parts are strictly such meant to intimidate and pressue the company into giving concessions in negotiations. But it would appear that it would be quite a leap to make at this point that the company is trying to take advantage of you when in watching this fight between you two it does appear your side is the only one throwing punches?
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
Jan will be the start of 4 years of negotiating. We by the contract started a year before the amendable date under a new for of negotations called "Interest Based Bargaining". It was a bit of an experiment, and in my opinion, a waste of time and money. We have negotiated two years since the amendable date.

We actually started negotiating before Sept. 11 to amend the contract. The attacks halted that effort. The company then tried to furlough 100 pilots, at a time where we were still working full schedules. We decided not to work days off, and the company decided not to furlough.

It was not long after that that the company decided to hire, an action that we were trying to get to happen for over 2 years.

They, by design, keep the airline at a very narrow margin of manning. Asia expansion has caused not only hiring, but new aircraft purchases.

I think the future is bright, and the only thing holding the airline back is the lack of ability to settle this contract.

BrownBusDriver
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
At low visibility, generally below 1/2 mile, some aircraft types are certified to autoland. This option is available down to 300 ft visibility. It is not a very comfortable thing, letting the computers do this, but that is the way the system is built.
This option is available only on certain runways at limited airports. The pilot, at this point, must monitor and certify at certain points on the approach that all information from the ground equipment is accurate to our charts, and that all systems of the aircraft are functioning as advertised.

I have personally done only about 3 of these in 10+ years of flying UPS aircraft. We train for it every year at recurrent training.

The other limitations include braking action reports on the runway, cross winds, and headwinds. We actually have autobrakes also, which are generally used every day to minimize braking temps. and wear.

Modern transport aircraft are amazing, complex and fun. That is why I love flying. My favorite time is from shuting the crew door to opening it, when the aircraft is mine. That is why I have spent 20 years training and growning my flying experiences.

I love to fly, but just because I love it doesn't make the fact that I do this for a living any less real.

BrownBusDriver
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
Ya, but you havn't seen the number of times we have had to fight for the simple things, coffee making capability on aircraft, food for long flights, a simple place to sit, waiting over 2 hours for sorting, safe stairs....the list over the last 15 years is long.

Tough, critical, hell yes. I have been here over 11 years, and of that time we have been officially negotiating 5 1/2 of those. This doesn't include the unofficial negotiations to protect the contract language every day.

They do not follow our contract, they test and break it regularly. This is systematic and premeditated.

Those are honest observations. Is the a company who's managment is awarded for integrity. I don't see it.
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
To tell you the exact numbers, I don't know. Our negotations are kept rather confidential until the end. I don't make those rules, or know exactly if the union, the company or the NMB forces them.

But, in a nut shell it is the following

1. Scheduling
2. Retirement
3. Compensation
4. Facilities

Scheduling is big, because it intertwines with almost everything else. We want to protect blocks of days off, allowing recovery from night flying. The flip flops between night and day flying kills you alittle at a time. We want schedules which frankly, we had before UPS improved their technology to "optimize" us for more productivity. It pointed out critical areas of contract language that are too loose. Do we want more days off, no, but we want protection that our days off aren't a single day from starting at 3am to 3am the next morning. I want schedules which will ensure that after 28 years here, I will have the health to enjoy the retirement, item # 2.

Retirement. We have alot of guys here since the creation of the airline in 1988 who under our current retirement will get squat. Because we have to quit flying as Captain at 60 by Federal Law, many have now returned to the FE seat to work as flight engineer at a lower salary, but earning more retirement. By the time I retire, there will be no FE seats left. New aircraft have 2 man crews. We want a retirement which fairly compensates the crewmembers who past experience was REQUIRED to start up this airline, and I mean REQUIRED by the FAA and insurance companies. We also want a retirement which will ensure that younger guys like me won't have to find an FE job after 28 years here. Are the older guys going to get a 30 retirement for 18 or 20 years of service, no, but what we currently have is very inadequate.

Compensation. To protect even the current contractual dollar power from the '97 dollars we signed, will take over 20%. We want inflation protections, and increase compensation for our FEs and FOs, who because of the way the scale was set up, have always trailed their counterparts at other carriers, (FEDEX).

We want facilities reflecting that of our peers, comparing to FedEx, we are a traveling band of campers. This includes areas where between sorts we can rest in some semi-private area, not being disturbed or disturbing others. We would like a locker at our home base. We would like a policy for pre-positioning crewmembers for trips that doesn't make every airplane stuffed to the hilt with crewmembers. It isn't safe, and very uncomfortable for everyone.

That is about it.

What else?
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
One more thing. Yes, we have after a very long time negotiating, had to go public and try to motivate the company to quit "slow rolling us". We are still working at wages negotiated in 1997. I have lost 20+ real income in inflation since then, and every day the company drags this out, they profit in real dollars, in todays dollar value.

Every day the company doesn't settle, they are provided the protection of work rules which we feel they are using to an extreme, and compromising not only safety at times, to certainly the long term health of the entire flying work force.

Unlike other groups, the RLA which we are governed by affords the company the protection of "delay" negotiations, which provides them the opportunity to work us today based on almost a decade agos rules and wages.

Are they taking advantage of us, YES. The RLA afford them this option through political influence and simply that the rules to not set a final date of decision making.

It is very different working under the RLA, even on a daily basis, I cannot refuse to do my assignment, even if I am certain that they are breaking the contractual rules. I must fly then grieve. We have some 300+ grievences currently unsettled, and everyday the company continues this premediated course of operations, they safe money, and cost me and my family compensation.

Am I being too harsh?

BrownBusDriver
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
Why wouldn't UPS want to settle, and set our contract as the standard, putting FedEx in the position of having to settle with their pilots based on our contract. We have been waiting for years, and for some items under discussions, over a decade. There are pilots here who have returned to lower positions to accrue retirement, which we are trying to fix in this contract. They would like to retire, but can not afford to with our current plan. Over 200 guys would leave as soon as this contract is finished.

The pilots have been very patient for well over 3 years. It is time to settle this. It has become time to go public with our grievances. I know this is very unsettling for others in the company who are not familiar with our negotations, and there is alot of bad information out there. There are management guys on another forum out there impersonating pilots trying to cause unrest.

We have with the passing of time come to the conclusion that without this public pressure on the company, they will not settle. We have been "slow rolled" time and time again. Time is on the company's side, not ours.

It is time to force this negotiations to a settlement, on way or another. I frankly expected no less than it being where it is now. I hate that I was right. I know everyone considers union members as radicals, but this pilot group is a very, very conservative bunch overall. Our union leader is former managment from Peoples Express airline, and a former Marine General, he is not a radical. I do think that he understands tatics, and has been forced to a more agressive approach.

FedEx is more than a year behind us. I don't think this group is willing to wait another year.

BrownBusDriver
 

tieguy

Banned
"One more thing. Yes, we have after a very long time negotiating, had to go public and try to motivate the company to quit "slow rolling us". We are still working at wages negotiated in 1997. I have lost 20+ real income in inflation since then, and every day the company drags this out, they profit in real dollars, in todays dollar value."

this wage scale is approximately what 205,000 a year for you? And don't get me wrong. Get what you can. But hardly inadequate?
 

BrownBusDriver

Active Member
Actually, even as a Capt at the top of the pay scale, not that much. I don't consider it inadequate, and never stated so, but I would think you don't come to work, accepting that your future is going to be less profitable at a time the company is so profitable. Where is the equity in that?

If you want to argue just compensation, well, what is just. Million upon millions for management around the country, even for poor performance. Our company is well managed from a fiscal stand point, and I respect that. But, am I to expect less in the future, because I work for a profitable company in a profitable industry, because other who do the same type of work in a less profitable industry are taking pay cuts? I would suspect if the day when this company finds itself there, the pilots would be up to carrying our fair share of the burden, just as many of the pilots of passenger carriers are now doing.

I chose to be a pilot. Frankly, it has was not for the money. I was just a kid that dreamed of flying from aircraft carriers for his country. That was then, this is now. This is a business, not the service.

I wish everyone the best to maximize their ability to leverage their skills for compensation. The trend in this country is becoming much to weighted in the direction of management compensation. It is some 400 to 1 now according to the GAO.

We are a very skilled group..and UPS for the most part didn't pay for that experience/training, though they do provide excellent training here. I have always been amazed at how well our pilots and management keep this stuff out of the training center. It is appreciated by every pilot here.

End the end, we are worth what we negoitate, even the management, but to buy into the idea that the pilots are going to destroy the company's profitablility is just not truthful.

As for job envy, it exist, and as I have said previously, I try to keep a humble attitude in how blessed that I have been in my career, but I have also worked hard to create these opportunities.

Being a guy flying night cargo has never been the most glamorous job in the world, but it does provide much stability it would seem.

Label us greedy, but I feel that our responsibility and skills to provide access to a world wide network, along with our continued commitment to providing the safest and reliable airline that it can be is worth the investment we are asking. Some don't agree I guess.

Look at it this way. At least we are negotiating, agressively at this point, but yes, we have tried to negotiate for a long time.

When we supported the Teamsters, it was out of a position of moral responsibility. I lost income, at a time when my kids were young, and I was very junior seniority wise. I would do it again, no matter the money, because it is the right thing to do. I hope that others can understand this view, but that is the way I feel, as do most every crewmember here.

Thanks for keeping this conversation at a level of politeness not generally maintained.

BrownBusDriver
 

ok2bclever

I Re Member
BBD,

I appreciate your insight and sharing your perspective with us here.

Yes, you make a ton more money than a driver or clerk, but we make more than a grocery store bagger.

So what?

Should we all aspire to stay at our current wage level until we are down to the equivalent of the grocery store bagger via inflation?

Of course not.

With the pilot compensation issue primarily to protect from inflation the company cannot even consider that of major import.

It does make for an easy target to sway the masses that commercial big body airplane pilots are greedy considering their high current wages.

Inflation protection as the issue deflates such rhetoric with knowledgeable listeners.

Retirement security is easily understood by most of us under the current circumstances.

Scheduling less so as most of us have pretty set schedules and are not required to turn our nights into day or visa versa, but would obviously be a key issue.

Obviously, doing nothing works great for the corporation as they are fine with not giving any raises or fixing inadequate retirement policies or limiting their ability to abuse the workforces scheduling.

I don't see any logical reason for the company to negotiate in good faith under the current circumstances without additional pressure being introduced somehow.

Frankly, after four years of basically unrewarding negotiations I would say the pilots union has been very patient.

How many think UPS would ever finish negotiating another contract with us and the Teamsters if not doing so allowed them to work us indefinitely at frozen wage levels, etc?
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
"I would do it again, no matter the money, because it is the right thing to do.

Exactly why I feel we should support you.
 
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