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<blockquote data-quote="tieguy" data-source="post: 73025" data-attributes="member: 1912"><p><span style="color: Red">I'm sorry I saw that quote on one of the message boards with a link attached for the source . I'll see if I can find it again. I believe the quote figure was for a 10 year captain making 205,000 a year. Does this mean you are not a 10 year captain yet?</span></p><p></p><p>"I don't consider it inadequate, and never stated so, but I would think you don't come to work, accepting that your future is going to be less profitable at a time the company is so profitable. Where is the equity in that?"</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">Thus my question as to why you thought you were being offered less. From what I saw the starting salary for a UPS pilot is unusually low. The top rate seems to be in the upper tier of the pilot scale. I would agree that the starting wage should probably be higher. I am confused though why this issue may be a sticking point with pilots who primarily are not affected by it. During the course of many union negotiations less is usually given to the "unborn" those not with us so more of the total compensation package can be awarded to those presently working for the company. </span></p><p> </p><p>"If you want to argue just compensation, well, what is just. Million upon millions for management around the country, even for poor performance."</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">I fully understand you are probably psyching yourself up for a long labor dispute or even a strike and thus you may be posting with passion when you make the above statement. But I am trying to figure out why you think UPS management is being paid millions for poor performance? Do you have any specific managment people you were referencing? Very few UPS management even make a million a year and most of those do so drawing interest off investments collected over the years. If you're not referring to UPS management specifically then are you trying to compare your profession to that of corporate ceos who run large corperations that provide thousands of jobs per corporation?</span></p><p></p><p>Our company is well managed from a fiscal stand point, and I respect that. But, am I to expect less in the future, because I work for a profitable company in a profitable industry, because other who do the same type of work in a less profitable industry are taking pay cuts? I would suspect if the day when this company finds itself there, the pilots would be up to carrying our fair share of the burden, just as many of the pilots of passenger carriers are now doing.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">Again the question as to why you think you're being offered a pay cut if negotiations have been kept confidential. </span></p><p> </p><p>I chose to be a pilot. Frankly, it has was not for the money. I was just a kid that dreamed of flying from aircraft carriers for his country. That was then, this is now. This is a business, not the service. I wish everyone the best to maximize their ability to leverage their skills for compensation. The trend in this country is becoming much to weighted in the direction of management compensation. It is some 400 to 1 now according to the GAO.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">Another point that does not seem to be relevant here since you probably make about 3 times what the average management person at UPS makes?</span> </p><p> </p><p>We are a very skilled group..and UPS for the most part didn't pay for that experience/training, though they do provide excellent training here. I have always been amazed at how well our pilots and management keep this stuff out of the training center. It is appreciated by every pilot here.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">I would also make a case for the skill of a package driver who can dump 150 stops a day without any service disconnects. Or the feeder driver who not only has to have the skill to drive under all types of conditions but also has a lot closer contact with other drivers then you will ever have. How do you rate your skill compared to them. </span></p><p> </p><p>End the end, we are worth what we negoitate, even the management, but to buy into the idea that the pilots are going to destroy the company's profitablility is just not truthful.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">I agree but only in comparing youself to other pilots. At the same time I don't think thats necessarily the logic required to price ourselves out of the market. What makes your compensation worth 3 times a feeder drivers compensation? What makes your compensation worth 5 times a paramedics compensation? What factor do you believe the other airlines that were once very profitable and now face financial difficulty should play in the decision of what is fair? Do you believe that your compensation should be above and beyond any other airlines just because UPS may presently in todays world be able to afford more? If UPS lost profitability in the future by say 30 percent would you be willing to take a 30 percent pay cut to compensate? Just trying to gauge how you think this should work.</span></p><p> </p><p>As for job envy, it exist, and as I have said previously, I try to keep a humble attitude in how blessed that I have been in my career, but I have also worked hard to create these opportunities.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">I hope your not offended but the envy I might feel is that you are paid so well for so little work. Everyone else at UPS even the incompetent management work much harder than you and actually have more of an impact on customer satisfaction then you do. Your impact on our service will increase as we continue to expand overseas but for now the brown drivers and the package handlers pay the bills. Including yours that we should all feel so envious over. </span></p><p> </p><p>"Being a guy flying night cargo has never been the most glamorous job in the world, but it does provide much stability it would seem."</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">How glamorous would it be to pull a set of doubles through 6 inches of snow. How glamourous would it be to dump 250 stops during peak. You make more than anyone else. You work less hours and you get to parade around in those pretty military style uniforms. Seems pretty glamorous to me. </span> </p><p> </p><p>"Label us greedy, but I feel that our responsibility and skills to provide access to a world wide network, along with our continued commitment to providing the safest and reliable airline that it can be is worth the investment we are asking. Some don't agree I guess."</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">I would never label you greedy. I do agree your safety record is outstanding and I do think you deserve to be one of the best compensated in your profession. I just wonder if you know how good you have it. I don't agree with the idea that you earn that compensation by trying to destroy the company that provides that compensation. Since you do appear to have appointed yourself the pilots spokes person on this board I thought I might ask you a few tough questions while most everyone else is busy bending over to kiss your rear end. </span></p><p> <span style="color: Red"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tieguy, post: 73025, member: 1912"] [COLOR=Red]I'm sorry I saw that quote on one of the message boards with a link attached for the source . I'll see if I can find it again. I believe the quote figure was for a 10 year captain making 205,000 a year. Does this mean you are not a 10 year captain yet?[/COLOR] "I don't consider it inadequate, and never stated so, but I would think you don't come to work, accepting that your future is going to be less profitable at a time the company is so profitable. Where is the equity in that?" [COLOR=Red]Thus my question as to why you thought you were being offered less. From what I saw the starting salary for a UPS pilot is unusually low. The top rate seems to be in the upper tier of the pilot scale. I would agree that the starting wage should probably be higher. I am confused though why this issue may be a sticking point with pilots who primarily are not affected by it. During the course of many union negotiations less is usually given to the "unborn" those not with us so more of the total compensation package can be awarded to those presently working for the company. [/COLOR] "If you want to argue just compensation, well, what is just. Million upon millions for management around the country, even for poor performance." [COLOR=Red]I fully understand you are probably psyching yourself up for a long labor dispute or even a strike and thus you may be posting with passion when you make the above statement. But I am trying to figure out why you think UPS management is being paid millions for poor performance? Do you have any specific managment people you were referencing? Very few UPS management even make a million a year and most of those do so drawing interest off investments collected over the years. If you're not referring to UPS management specifically then are you trying to compare your profession to that of corporate ceos who run large corperations that provide thousands of jobs per corporation?[/COLOR] Our company is well managed from a fiscal stand point, and I respect that. But, am I to expect less in the future, because I work for a profitable company in a profitable industry, because other who do the same type of work in a less profitable industry are taking pay cuts? I would suspect if the day when this company finds itself there, the pilots would be up to carrying our fair share of the burden, just as many of the pilots of passenger carriers are now doing. [COLOR=Red]Again the question as to why you think you're being offered a pay cut if negotiations have been kept confidential. [/COLOR] I chose to be a pilot. Frankly, it has was not for the money. I was just a kid that dreamed of flying from aircraft carriers for his country. That was then, this is now. This is a business, not the service. I wish everyone the best to maximize their ability to leverage their skills for compensation. The trend in this country is becoming much to weighted in the direction of management compensation. It is some 400 to 1 now according to the GAO. [COLOR=Red]Another point that does not seem to be relevant here since you probably make about 3 times what the average management person at UPS makes?[/COLOR] We are a very skilled group..and UPS for the most part didn't pay for that experience/training, though they do provide excellent training here. I have always been amazed at how well our pilots and management keep this stuff out of the training center. It is appreciated by every pilot here. [COLOR=Red]I would also make a case for the skill of a package driver who can dump 150 stops a day without any service disconnects. Or the feeder driver who not only has to have the skill to drive under all types of conditions but also has a lot closer contact with other drivers then you will ever have. How do you rate your skill compared to them. [/COLOR] End the end, we are worth what we negoitate, even the management, but to buy into the idea that the pilots are going to destroy the company's profitablility is just not truthful. [COLOR=Red]I agree but only in comparing youself to other pilots. At the same time I don't think thats necessarily the logic required to price ourselves out of the market. What makes your compensation worth 3 times a feeder drivers compensation? What makes your compensation worth 5 times a paramedics compensation? What factor do you believe the other airlines that were once very profitable and now face financial difficulty should play in the decision of what is fair? Do you believe that your compensation should be above and beyond any other airlines just because UPS may presently in todays world be able to afford more? If UPS lost profitability in the future by say 30 percent would you be willing to take a 30 percent pay cut to compensate? Just trying to gauge how you think this should work.[/COLOR] As for job envy, it exist, and as I have said previously, I try to keep a humble attitude in how blessed that I have been in my career, but I have also worked hard to create these opportunities. [COLOR=Red]I hope your not offended but the envy I might feel is that you are paid so well for so little work. Everyone else at UPS even the incompetent management work much harder than you and actually have more of an impact on customer satisfaction then you do. Your impact on our service will increase as we continue to expand overseas but for now the brown drivers and the package handlers pay the bills. Including yours that we should all feel so envious over. [/COLOR] "Being a guy flying night cargo has never been the most glamorous job in the world, but it does provide much stability it would seem." [COLOR=Red]How glamorous would it be to pull a set of doubles through 6 inches of snow. How glamourous would it be to dump 250 stops during peak. You make more than anyone else. You work less hours and you get to parade around in those pretty military style uniforms. Seems pretty glamorous to me. [/COLOR] "Label us greedy, but I feel that our responsibility and skills to provide access to a world wide network, along with our continued commitment to providing the safest and reliable airline that it can be is worth the investment we are asking. Some don't agree I guess." [COLOR=Red]I would never label you greedy. I do agree your safety record is outstanding and I do think you deserve to be one of the best compensated in your profession. I just wonder if you know how good you have it. I don't agree with the idea that you earn that compensation by trying to destroy the company that provides that compensation. Since you do appear to have appointed yourself the pilots spokes person on this board I thought I might ask you a few tough questions while most everyone else is busy bending over to kiss your rear end. [/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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