Pilots Talks Fail

[dannyboy]

Air

Is it just me, or did you maybe phrase this a bit wrong?

When we gave you a brown uniform we made you

From my very limited knowledge of UPS, no one is given a damn thing. We earn it, with the exception of maybe a promotion.

Our workforce ought to be the best compensated, it works harder than the others.

Now if they could only get the air to our center before start time. You want us to support your raises, get the air here.

d

 

[Anonymous Coward]

Air

Is it just me, or did you maybe phrase this a bit wrong?



From my very limited knowledge of UPS, no one is given a damn thing. We earn it, with the exception of maybe a promotion.

Our workforce ought to be the best compensated, it works harder than the others.

Now if they could only get the air to our center before start time. You want us to support your raises, get the air here.

d

Now who gets to "air to our center before start time"? Are you refering to the pilots?

A LINE SLUG?

 

[dannyboy]

Could be, you figure it out.

d

 

[Anonymous Coward]

Could be, you figure it out.

d

Thanks for the smart answer. It was a real question, Ever thought about the sort being late, as in a 15, 30, 45, 60 .... minute window? Are you familiar with the sort window? The Pilots get blamed for everything, even all the things beyond are control. But thats ok, we are just labor, no big deal! Crap rolls down hill! Blue Skies!

A LINE SLUG!

 

[dannyboy]

Thats about what I figured. See to you its just crap. To me, or those doing what I used to do, we are where the "crap" quits rolling down hill. I guess you could call us the crap catchers, because we are the ones that do catch it when it is late.

And yes, I do know about weather, and I would expect there to be days where the air is late. But not each and every day.

Judging from your posts, I can understand where you want more money and less accountability. More money and fewer results.

Glad that was a real question. But the question made not one bit of sense. Try again.
d

 

[DS]

I have an idea to fix the late air.
Start an hour earlier...so the planes arrive at 5AM
in the bldg by 7AM wrapped by 830...$190 an hour
how much would that be for a 59.99 hr week?
I`m with Dannyboy,get the air here early,and I`ll
try to forget how much you make.

 

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats about what I figured. See to you its just crap. To me, or those doing what I used to do, we are where the "crap" quits rolling down hill. I guess you could call us the crap catchers, because we are the ones that do catch it when it is late.

And yes, I do know about weather, and I would expect there to be days where the air is late. But not each and every day.

Judging from your posts, I can understand where you want more money and less accountability. More money and fewer results.

Glad that was a real question. But the question made not one bit of sense. Try again.
d

I have to laugh! Nowhere did I say anything about weather, I used the term "sort window". The air hub in Louisville uses that as a "catch all" for their inability to get the cans out to the aircraft on time. The sort window is for the cans at the aircraft, ready for departure, not the greedy pilots who, "want more money and less accountability. More money and fewer results.", your words, not mine! Do you suggest that we depart on time without the aircraft loaded? I'll make sure I do that, just so we show up on time and "You" do not have to wait! Operating an airline (flying aircraft) is like an Orchestra performing a piece of music; everyone interacts and plays off of each other. Timing is everything, if one musician is off, everyone will know it. The concert will receive a bad review. When the airline (sort) is running late, due to maybe heavy volume in Louisville, we (Pilots) catch it from everyone else. Hey those darn pilots are late again! Its the easiest thing to do; we are the point of the spear. There are times when WX, ATC, or a mechanical, and yes even pilots, are a factor. That is what operating an airline is all about. Sound bitter? Yes I do, I'm tired of being blamed, or second guessed by other managers or employees who do not take the time to understand, or give a ____ (darn) about what really happens! Any pilot delay that can be attributed to our actions and/or conduct is documented in our "exception report". To suggest that I asked for "less accountability" is typical. No big deal, I expect it at this point, nothing more, nothing less!

I have posted several "Anonymous Coward" posts, signed as "A LINE SLUG! in this thread and others, and I'm the one that is attacked, not the message. Attack the messenger, not the message! Fire one and the others will fall. Look back a couple of posts, were I said I had flown with a couple of the Legacy Pilots, and how two had already quite UPS, during their probationary year. You choose to ignore that. How about the number of grievances on file? Any thoughts as to why? I have posted to try and give insight to other UPSers some of the issues we face as a company, you can choice to use it how you please!

THE NMB denied the IPAs request to be release from talks, we expected that. UPS cannot HIDE behind the RLA act and the NMB forever. UPS wants the pilots frustrated, my observation; we are not frustrated, just RESOLVED! Know this, the issue is not going away, what ever it takes! The ball is in UPS court!



A LINE SLUG!

Flame away!

 

[dannyboy]

You know, I would suggest that we walk a mile in each others shoes. Maybe then we could understand and correct the problem. But in the customers eyes, I the driver am the one to blame for the air getting delivered late, and UPS for finding excuses to justify not returning the money for missing the guarantee.

d

 

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I would suggest that we walk a mile in each others shoes. Maybe then we could understand and correct the problem. But in the customers eyes, I the driver am the one to blame for the air getting delivered late, and UPS for finding excuses to justify not returning the money for missing the guarantee.

d

Dannyboy, the first response of yours I can agree with! Progress! I (the Pilot) would not have a job @ UPS if it was not for all the hard work that the sorters, loaders, package car drivers... do. You guys are the backbone of our company. My hat is off to you guys. What I've tried to point out to the groundside is perspective. (Walk a mile in each others shoes) Unfortunately, everyone is bitter, it is not going to get any better unless the company changes course. Both sides are backed into a corner and nobody wants to give. For the last 8 years UPS has paid WELL BELOW the industry wage standard. With the legacy carriers in trouble, their wages have deteriorated & we are now paid about the same scale. UPS is now proud to have the highest paid pilots. Are our Teamsters Drivers the highest paid drivers in the country? Guess what, American Airline, is one step away from bankrupy, their pilots make $196.00 after a 35% pay cut, a full $6.00 more! Go figure! A passenger Airbus A300 full of passengers vs. a UPS or FEDEX A300 full of overnite packages, which one has the higher profit? It is not all about the money. SCOPE! Are you familiar with the term? Jobs, basically it means if it is branded UPS, anyway, shape or form, the IPA flys it. Example, China Air flying a B-747 into Nashville TN with UPS cargo on board, Our contract permits UPS the fly up to 4 containers on someone elses aircraft (B-747 carries 30 plus containers) vs. a dedicating a UPS aircraft that the 4 cans that would not pay to operate, good for the company. The company is demanding a change in the new contract, from the 4 cans to 10. Do you know why? They can tie growth to a brand new aircraft that is coming available, a Boeing B737-700 freighter that will haul 8 cans. Guess what, UPS would not buy those aircraft. They would contract that flying out. Where would this flying take place? China, India. IPA JOBS going to foreign pilots. OUTSOURSING AMERICAN JOBS! UPS PR is in the media saying, "no pilot has lost their job, matter a fact, we are hiring". Yes they are right, nobody has lost their job, but there won't be new jobs. I've been reading about the Package Car Drivers spending more hours behind the wheel and delivering more packages and asking when are we going to get additional drivers, SAME THING!

What the IPA is asking for is reasonable. It is not out of line. These are good times for UPSers; Managers bonuses are up, growth, and a positive outlook! All the pilots are asking for is to be included in this growth. Nothing more: nothing less.

5 Items Remain:
1) COMPENSATION-lead the industry. Pay top scale, not by default but lead. Show how proud UPS is of their pilots!
2) RETIRMENT MEDICAL-take care of your people once you have used them up, Flying on the backside of the clock is killing us. In the past 2 years we've had 6 pilots have heart attacks & die! I don't know how many pilots have lost their medicals and can't fly. The backside of the clock flying is raking havoc on our pilots health. We will die at a younger due to or profession.
3) SCHEDULING-directly tied to #2. Quality of life, circadian rhythm issues (day/night/day... flipping of schedules), days off, believe it or not UPS/IPA negotiating what a day off is? (UPS 24 hours, no matter when it started, a rolling clock VS. IPA a defined start/stop time, the exact time we are asking for I don't know 7:00 AM or 7:00 PM) very important for writing the schedules
4) RETIRMENT-Guys retiring right now make less the 15% of their earnings
5) Scope-NO OUTSOURSING AMERICAN JOB!

Let me end by saying this, the Package Car Drivers are what makes UPS special! They, you are the face of the company, you interact with our customers, the customers love there PCDers. I personally feel that is what makes UPS so different, special!!! My job would be meaningless without you. That being said, what we expect out of this contact is addressing these issues and rewarding us for what we as pilots provide this company. What we expect is nothing more than the COST OF DOING BUSINESS! Nothing more, nothing less! The 5 items Ive listed have the potential of destroying this 100-year-old company; I will say again, THE BALL IS IN UPS COURT! I hope UPS decided to reward employees.

A small, short walk with ya, Hopefully you understand some of the issues facing OUR company,

BLUE SKIES, a.c. aka A LINE SLUG!

 

[dannyboy]

You bring up some good points, but let me ask you some other questions.

Forgive my stupidity but you stated

IPA JOBS going to foreign pilots. OUTSOURSING AMERICAN JOBS!

Do all the packages from foreign soil come to America? Do all packages come here first before they go to where they belong? Are all pilots that belong to the IPA US citizens?

If the answer to the first is no, then why should a pilot that resides here, fly to wherever, say China to pick up his load and fly to Frankfort and then back. What says that a pilot can not belong to the IPA and be German, French, Chinese?

1) COMPENSATION-lead the industry. Pay top scale, not by default but lead. Show how proud UPS is of their pilots!

From what you stated with all the cuts of other carriers, you should be the very close to the top, if not the top paid in the industry right now. .And I hope you stay that way.

2) RETIRMENT MEDICAL-take care of your people once you have used them up, Flying on the backside of the clock is killing us. In the past 2 years we've had 6 pilots have heart attacks & die! I don't know how many pilots have lost their medicals and can't fly. The backside of the clock flying is raking havoc on our pilots health. We will die at a younger due to or profession.

Wonder what the rate is nation wide at UPS. I know of several drivers that have died on duty.

3) SCHEDULING-directly tied to #2. Quality of life, circadian rhythm issues (day/night/day... flipping of schedules), days off, believe it or not UPS/IPA negotiating what a day off is? (UPS 24 hours, no matter when it started, a rolling clock VS. IPA a defined start/stop time, the exact time we are asking for I don't know 7:00 AM or 7:00 PM) very important for writing the schedules

The same thing could be said for feeder drivers, so I guess that would mean they need to be paid close to what you make?

4) RETIRMENT-Guys retiring right now make less the 15% of their earnings

So that means you and I would be retiring with about the same amount per year, with you drawing more than I.

As for the #5, you and I are in the same boat, so I agree.

d

 

[traveler]

5 Items Remain:
1) COMPENSATION-lead the industry. Pay top scale, not by default but lead. Show how proud UPS is of their pilots!
2) RETIRMENT MEDICAL-take care of your people once you have used them up, Flying on the backside of the clock is killing us. In the past 2 years we've had 6 pilots have heart attacks & die! I don't know how many pilots have lost their medicals and can't fly. The backside of the clock flying is raking havoc on our pilots health. We will die at a younger due to or profession.
3) SCHEDULING-directly tied to #2. Quality of life, circadian rhythm issues (day/night/day... flipping of schedules), days off, believe it or not UPS/IPA negotiating what a day off is? (UPS 24 hours, no matter when it started, a rolling clock VS. IPA a defined start/stop time, the exact time we are asking for I don't know 7:00 AM or 7:00 PM) very important for writing the schedules
4) RETIREMENT-Guys retiring right now make less the 15% of their earnings
5) Scope-NO OUTSOURSING AMERICAN JOB!

I, and I believe most others on this board appreciate the information you gave here. Up to this point I wasn't sure just what the hang-ups were.

I would like to comment on a few of these points.

1) Compensation - I feel you should be paid fairly. Does that mean more than anyone else? Not necessarily. I think the fact that you have a job with virtually no chance of give-backs and little or no chance of downsizing has to be worth more than being the highest paid when it includes uncertainty as to whether or not you will have a job tomorrow.

2) Retirement medical - Can't argue about this as I would want the same benefit.

3) Scheduling - In your shoes, I would have to go for the same as you seem to be asking.

4) Retirement - Being retired myself, sure, I would love to get more than I do now but UPS has never missed a check and I knew through my career what to expect. Your 15% alone doesn't tell the story such as 'after what length of service' is that 15% being paid?

5) Scope - "NO OUTSOURCING AMERICAN JOB!" "Where would this flying take place? China, India. IPA JOBS going to foreign pilots. OUTSOURCING AMERICAN JOBS! UPS PR is in the media saying, "no pilot has lost their job, matter a fact, we are hiring"." Here I would have to strongly disagree. One of the ways a company remains profitable is to get the job done well and at as reasonable cost as possible. I know you folks are much more mobile than drivers but do you think the teamsters should look at Germany of France and say "you should have American teamsters working those jobs"? I have seen many "Union jobs" lost over the years and companies fail due to overreaching union people. I am NOT union bashing, unions do certainly have their place but some surely overreach. I would rather see a healthy company with no jobs lost and reasonable growth than see the company sag under the weight of paying those high wages where the job can reasonably done for less in foreign countries.

 

[Captbrown]

Traveler,
1) Compensation - I feel you should be paid fairly. Does that mean more than anyone else? Not necessarily. I think the fact that you have a job with virtually no chance of give-backs and little or no chance of downsizing has to be worth more than being the highest paid when it includes uncertainty as to whether or not you will have a job tomorrow.

I still have money set aside to help junior pilots affected by the furlough attempt in '02. There were no justifiable reasons for UPS management to attempt to eliminate 100 of our most junior pilots other than spite. If you ask any of the pilots who got their furlough notice I don't think many would agree with your first statement.

 

[tieguy]

only 200,000 a year for your salary. I feel so guilty this company is starving you folks so.

Curious about a few things. How many of your pilots who complain about the hap hazard scheduling actually live somewhere other than louky and thus catch a flight into work from places like arizona, florida or california?

It would seem to be a fair question to ask because if I am truly concerned about this scheduling issue then you would think i would live in the louky area so I could maximize my rest time.

 

[iloadthetruck]

5) Scope - "NO OUTSOURCING AMERICAN JOB!" "Where would this flying take place? China, India. IPA JOBS going to foreign pilots. OUTSOURCING AMERICAN JOBS! UPS PR is in the media saying, "no pilot has lost their job, matter a fact, we are hiring"." Here I would have to strongly disagree. One of the ways a company remains profitable is to get the job done well and at as reasonable cost as possible. I know you folks are much more mobile than drivers but do you think the teamsters should look at Germany of France and say "you should have American teamsters working those jobs"? I have seen many "Union jobs" lost over the years and companies fail due to overreaching union people. I am NOT union bashing, unions do certainly have their place but some surely overreach. I would rather see a healthy company with no jobs lost and reasonable growth than see the company sag under the weight of paying those high wages where the job can reasonably done for less in foreign countries.

I have to agree with traveler on this point especially. Back when Delphi filed for bankruptcy, there were a lot of wage examples for them being bounced around. The guys who mopped the floors made $30 an hour. The lawn mowers made over $50 an hour. With the automobile industry in such a decline there was no way to sustain those wages. So it's almost inevitable that we outsource, in essence, to help subsidize our higher-paid pilots.

The other big issue is insurance. Healthcare is expensive. But I think the time of 100% free benefits is no longer. Retirees in our local had their benefits level changed and started having to pay a monthly premium. They certainly did not like that. My mother's teacher union fought tooth over nail when their school district asked they started paying $5 (yes, that's cheaper than coffee at Starbucks) because they didn't want to give up the lack of premiums. I keep telling everyone this will be the hot issue in 2008, and no one wants to admit that it's not going to be a winning situation for either side.