Pobre and friends

Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by PobreCarlos, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. PobreCarlos

    PobreCarlos New Member

    soberups;

    What "additional facts and information"? What "facts" were presented in the first place? What has there been to "believe"...other than a few posts someone typed here on BC? Beyond, that, it's not like a requested an unreasonable amount of evidence; just some facsimile (or a link to same) of the source the poster maintains he's quoting from. Is that so hard to provide? Sorry, but I'm not quite ready to automatically accept someones possibly second or third hand relation of events as "facts" when it would be so easy to simply DEMONSTRATE what actually ARE the "facts".

    That said, I'm glad you're so conversant with my employment status in 1997, when I made my mind up, and so on. Are those "facts" that one's equally supposed to accept based on the say-so of an individual such a yourself? If so, I can't help but wonder how you came to be so "knowledgeable"? :-)
     
  2. brownIEman

    brownIEman Active Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    This is simply not true. The contract the company offered stated:


    They were saying you would have gotten at least what the western states plan was set to pay you based on its calculations.

    I am not saying the pension UPS offered was a good teal for the teamsters. Certainly not a good deal for the Non-UPS teamsters that would have been left in the multi-employer plans. I am saying that it was not a severe reduction to UPS pensioners. That was simply a lie the IBT told you to get you more fired up against the proposal. You and 104feeder bought that lie hook line and sinker, and still persist in the belief today.


     
  3. PobreCarlos

    PobreCarlos New Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    soberups;

    What I find significant doesn't concern the alleged "business decisions" the company made, but rather what PERSONAL decisions YOU apparently made in continuing to work for a company that you made the following statement concerning YOUR life about; to wit

    "....[your] life was not worth the $50 it would have cost to equip its older package cars with a 3 point seat belt. I work for a company that made a business decision that my health and safety was not worth the $350 it would have cost to equip the older package cars with power steering."

    Now it would seem to me that YOU ought to be more responsible for YOUR personal well-being than any outside entity, and that if YOU aren't all that concerned about it (at least not concerned enough to avoid those dangers and find work elsewhere), then you're NOT really in a position to complain about it. After all, should your employer care care more about YOU than YOU care about YOURSELF? I just don't see it.

    It would seem to me that living as an adult means that one accepts responsibility for one's self, and not be constantly demanding that others accept responsibility for him.
     
  4. Inthegame

    Inthegame Well-Known Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    "Now I'm not about to claim that..." Well why speculate that possibility at all??? It's apples and fruitcakes, UPS had to pay the withdrawal liability if they wanted out of CSPF. They could at any time voluntarily increase pension contributions considering the string of record profit quarters they've had since '97. Odd that a voluntary increase never happened...
     
  5. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    Only if the Teamster retired under the life of that Agreement and if the mystical "Plan Documents" did not contain an escape clause. For Teamsters such as Sober, in 1997 he had 19.5 years to go. Accepting this plan would have missed out on all the increases in the next few contracts, including the $5/hr or so bump we got in the last Contract (contribution rates were frozen at the 1997 rate, less than half what we are getting now). Also, all bets would be off at the next Contract negotiations. You seriously believe UPS would have more than doubled it's offering by now?

    Solutions. Look into it.
     
  6. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    LOL yes they were just waiting, waiting​ I tell you, to shower $6 billion on us!
     
  7. brownIEman

    brownIEman Active Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals


    No "escape Clause" could get the company out of financial commitment made in a legally binding contract.

    You have no way of knowing that accepting that plan would have missed out on increments in the next contracts. It is possible increases in the next contracts could have been larger than they were. The total cost of the 1997 package would have been less, so it would have put the IBT in a position to ask for even more. It might have been less than what it was. I have no way of knowing. Neither do you.

    Yes, all bets would be off the next contract. All bets are off at every contract, and everything is up for negotiation. Do you believe the IBT to be THAT poor at negotiating? Apparently I have more faith in them than you do.

    No, I do not believe UPS would have just doubled it's offering. It would have raised it's offering as little as it could negotiate with the IBT.

    None of this is at all relevant to my point.

    Regardless of any future changes, UPS was offering you, in black and white, AT LEAST as much as you were scheduled to get at that time. The Union told you that was not true. That was a lie. Spelled out in black and white. And you believed it.
     
  8. PobreCarlos

    PobreCarlos New Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    Inthegame;

    That "withdrawal liability" was less than a billion dollars when UPS proposed to withdraw in '97. It's not "apples and fruitcakes" at all; rather, that's $5 billion which the union squandered and which COULD have been applied to UPS Teamsters pensions. As for "voluntarily increasing pensions", why on earth would ANY entity do that when the "other side" was pissing it away at such a rapid rate? That would have been like giving an alcoholic a fifth of whiskey and saying "have at it".
     
  9. PobreCarlos

    PobreCarlos New Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    104Feeder;

    I can tell you this; there was a lot more chance of that money finding itself in UPS Teamsters hands via UPS "showering" it on them than there was in depending on the union themselves passing it over. While you can speculate, we DON'T know what UPS would have done with such a huge sum....but we DO know what the Teamsters did with it! You may argue that UPS *MIGHT* not have used that money for the benefit of it's employees, but it's a proven FACT that (in terms of UPS Teamsters) it was completely wasted in the hands of their parent union. And it occurs to me that a "could be" is better than a "definitely not" seven days a week, and twice on Sunday.

    And, as far as I'm concerned, the Teamsters pissing away more than $6 billion of what COULD have been their members money isn't something particular worthy of "LOL"ing about...unless the individual doing the "LOL"ing has a rather peculiar sense of humor.
     
  10. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals


    Do you seriously believe what you wrote?
    "No "Escape Clause" could get the Company out of a financial commitment made in a legally binding contract".
    I could fill this thread with examples of UPS ignoring it's financial commitments in that legally binding contract. In fact, it's probably what has taken me the most time during my 14 years as a Steward. My favorite is a member who has a copy of a $59,000 check framed on his wall from the Company. See, they refused to pay his vacation, holidays, pay increases etc over his time serving in the Operation Desert Storm, compensation guaranteed to him under USERRA. He even had to have his commanding officer threaten to have our Division Manager arrested for failing to comply. Now I'm sure if UPS has no qualms ignoring FEDERAL LAW to the point of arrest, our little legally binding contract would be a mere inconvenience.

    Pass to the left
     
  11. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    The $6 billion buyout has nothing to do with "squandered money" that you like to refer to. It was the payment required to remove UPS from the multi-employer plan. Re-writing history seems to be your game, but no one is buying what you are selling. Go back to NRTWC and peddle your crap to Walmart workers.

    I'm done responding to you Pobre, because you come here with nothing but conjecture and have the gall to question my integrity. You seem to relish having the last word so have at it, but you'll be arguing with yourself.
     
  12. PobreCarlos

    PobreCarlos New Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    104Feeder;

    That's about as disingenuous a claim as I've heard in a while. Yes, it was "payment required to remove UPS from the multi-employer plan", only because THE TEAMSTERS HAD SQUANDERED THE CONTRIBUTIONS THE COMPANY HAD MADE AWAY! Those contributions were intended to cover UPS EMPLOYEES...and they were SUFFICIENT to cover UPS employees IF the Teamsters had held up their end of the bargain; i.e. - maintained contributing members in order that the plan was TRUE "multi-employer". But the Teamster didn't...and they essentially :censored2: away BILLIONS in the process.

    Beyond that, you remember the codicil that the Teamsters signed the next contract AFTER '97? I.e. - the one in which they agreed to pursue FULL FUNDING for Central States, ala' Western States? They uphold that agreement, did they? I think you know as well as I that they didn't...or the "withdrawal liability" wouldn't have more than doubled in the few shorts years AFTER the Teamsters agreed to attempt to rectify the situation. They made a promise, and failed to keep it. Their word was no good. Unfortunately, that's something one encounters all-too-often when dealing with the Teamsters union.

    Sorry, but when an organization puts employer-contributor after employer-contributor out of business as the Teamster have - to the tune of SCORES, if not HUNDREDS - then I don't know what term could be used to describe the situation other than "squandered". And the only "crap" I see being "peddled" here is that coming from those who posture as if the Teamsters DIDN'T "screw the pooch" when it came to Central States and the contributors to it. The made a promise, and they FAILED TO KEEP IT! Simple as that.

    As for you being "done responding", I can well understand why you'd resent being called on your B.S and want to skedaddle; I'd back out too, if I was being asked to support the trash you've been slopping around here. And if you think the loss of contributors to Central States, or the inability of the Teamster to retain the viability of their employers is mere "conjecture", then I not only am going to question your integrity, but also your grasp on reality. For example, if that $6 billion WASN'T "squandered", then what happened to it? Because if it WASN'T squandered by the Teamsters, then I - as a UPS shareholder - WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT BACK!

    That possible, you think?


     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  13. brownIEman

    brownIEman Active Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    Well, I guess I am wrong. UPS CAN get out of its financial obligations under the contract.

    I Wonder why they have actually paid all the raises that have been promised in all these contracts? They could have saved millions, maybe billions, by just not giving the raises. Maybe they don't realize that they don't need to just because they signed a contract stating in black and white that they would.

    But heck, if they can get away with not paying money that they owe under a federal law, surely a contract is no big deal. And clearly as you pointed out, they easily got away with not paying the $59,000 they owe your friend who has that check...

    Hey wait a minute...

    I am really floored on this one. You claim you can fill these threads with examples of UPS ignoring it's financial commitments under the contract. Then the one example you give has nothing to do with the contract. Oh, and by the way, ends with the guy walking away with the money.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  14. brownmonster

    brownmonster Man of Great Wisdom

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    I have no doubt that had we voted in the infamous last, best final offer it would be our last union negotiated contract. That was it's intended purpose.
     
  15. soberups

    soberups Pees in the brown Koolaid

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    Your "employment status" is that you have one or two peak seasons under your belt as a helper and a PT inside employee. You have posted your anti-union drivel here under multiple screen names such as AssistantSanta and SloppyJoes7. You have never driven a package car or worked for UPS in a management capacity.
     
  16. soberups

    soberups Pees in the brown Koolaid

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    When I took a driving job at UPS, I was both aware and accepting of the fact that most of the package cars we had in service at the time were grossly deficient in terms of basic safety features such as 3 point belts, low steps and power steering. I didnt like it, of course, but it was part of the deal that I signed on for and I could choose to either take it or leave it. I chose to take it.

    I bring these shortcomings up not to complain about them, but merely to point out the reality that UPS's actions in regards to both my safety and overall well being as a person speak far louder than its words.

    Any corporate entity that would make a calculated and intentional decision that my life was not worth the $50 expense of a 3 point seat belt is not an entity that I would want to have control over something so vital to my and my wife's future as my pension.

    When you enroll in a pension plan, you are placing a great deal of trust in the entity that manages it. In 1997 I was required to make a choice in regards to which entity (UPS management vs. Western Conference of Teamsters Pension Trust) I felt had my best interests at heart in regards to my retirement. Based upon past actions as opposed to words, the choice was as obvious back then as it still is today.
     
  17. PobreCarlos

    PobreCarlos New Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    soberups;

    That's my "employment status", is it? Gosh, you really ARE an "informed one", aren't you! :-) Or is this yet another example of Teamster "integrity"?

    That said, I'm glad to hear that I've "never driven a package car or worked for UPS in a management capacity." Quite comforting, actually, to discover from such a "credible" source such as yourself that what I thought were my life experiences of all those years had no basis in reality.

    Anyway, hope you enjoyed your little flight of fancy. Nice way to demonstrate just how much attention should be paid to what you have to say.
     
  18. PobreCarlos

    PobreCarlos New Member

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    soberups;

    Sorry, guy, but you've made it painfully clear that you're not "aware" of much of anything. Simply put, the truth is not in you. You made it quite obvious that you, yourself, didn't value your own hide and, beyond that, made a compelling case as to why no one else - including the company - should either. And I'll admit that, considering your personal integrity, I would tend to agree with that evaluation..

    As for someone like YOU bringing up issues of "shortcomings" or "trust"? Well, from this point on, I think one has to consider the source.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
  19. menotyou

    menotyou bella amicizia

    Re: Comparison: Last, Best & Final to Pre-strike proposals

    Dead or Alive - You Spin Me Round - YouTube
     
  20. soberups

    soberups Pees in the brown Koolaid

    Looks like I hit a nerve.