Poll: APWA-Support or Oppose

Do You Support or Oppose the APWA's Attempt to Kick the IBT to the Curb?

  • Yes. It's time for a change for the better!

    Votes: 48 51.1%
  • No. I'm a Teamster all the way! The APWA is a union buster!

    Votes: 25 26.6%
  • Maybe. I'm skeptical right now. The APWA hasn't earned their wings yet.

    Votes: 18 19.1%
  • I don't care. Neither can fix our pension problem.

    Votes: 3 3.2%

  • Total voters
    94

brett636

Well-Known Member
Fuzzy math? Shoot, I thought basic math still applied as it has since it was developed thousands of years ago.
Dissident, you make it sound like is a bad word.
No real plan? I guess you are going to have to read the part that states. UPS money only goes to people that work for UPS.
No representation experience? Ya, just a bunch of locals are going walk into a negotiating meeting and say "what do we do now?"
When you say," I think not." That point I will concede.

Exactly, their pension payouts are based on a best case scenario. Throw in one good recession or one bad investment choice and pension payouts will drop. Are you going to advocate a change of unions then as well? Their plan as far as I can tell only involves the pension. Now I don't know about you, but every week I receive a paycheck, not a pension. I have medical, vacation, and other benefits to be concerned with. The APWA has nothing to bargain with as they have no strike fund, so the union's only real weapon, the strike, is useless. I can only imagine how bad that first contract would be. Luckily this group does not have the support it claims to have, and will not be the bargaining agent for UPSers within my lifetime. Maybe one day a real union, with real experienced officers, and a real history will come along to fix this pension issue, or maybe it will be fixed in the meantime. As for now the only place the APWA has support are the few morons such as yourself on this message board.
 

705red

Browncafe Steward
Thanks for explaining all of this to me. Now i can see exactly how strong the apwa will be with a bunch of spineless cowards who gave up on one union already, if i was in management ill be liking my chops waiting for this apwa vote. Im sure all of your brothers and sisters you scabs stabbed in the back are all supporting you in your effort to rid ups of the dark forces of the teamsters. Im glad to see you finally making a stand on something, please excuse as i cross your picket line here on brown cafe. Apwa is funded by ups and supported by scabs, thanks for wasting all of our time.
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
"I feed on the teat of UPS, not the teat of the teamsters."

You feed on the teat of a Teamster negotiated wage.
 

satellitedriver

Moderator
Thanks for explaining all of this to me. Now i can see exactly how strong the apwa will be with a bunch of spineless cowards who gave up on one union already, if i was in management ill be liking my chops waiting for this apwa vote. Im sure all of your brothers and sisters you scabs stabbed in the back are all supporting you in your effort to rid ups of the dark forces of the teamsters. Im glad to see you finally making a stand on something, please excuse as i cross your picket line here on brown cafe. Apwa is funded by ups and supported by scabs, thanks for wasting all of our time.
I guess you missed the part of my post that said,"rational".
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
"I feed on the teat of UPS, not the teat of the teamsters."

You feed on the teat of a Teamster negotiated wage.

Again...no one is faulting the IBT for wages. Yes, they did negotiate them. But isn't that what they were supposed to do? Are we supposed to forgive their pension screw up just because they negotiated our wages? I think definately not. It's like a mother getting turned in to the department of child services for neglecting her little girl and leaving her at home alone all day. Would she get away with it if she started listing all of the good things she has done for her girl? NOPE.
 

Captain America

SuperDAD to the rescue
Change begins with 1 person saying ENOUGH! Talk to your brothers and sisters, convince them their vote does matter and getting a little bit involved in the union is a good thing. We have exactly the union we deserve. Changing unions won't help in my opinion, but I hope the threat gets real enough to get some positive change. Corruption spreads when good people do nothing. I am trying not to be overwhelmed with hopelessness because I have been there and its a dead end. This country needs stronger unions and if we can't get them we all might as well accept that in the future there will be the rich and the working poor with no one inbetween.:rockon:
 

Delivered

Well-Known Member
I noticed today that the APWA website counter is over 100,000 I don't know how accurate it is, but hopefully a lot of people are actually taking the time to find out more information and make an informed decision
 

satellitedriver

Moderator
Exactly, their pension payouts are based on a best case scenario. Throw in one good recession or one bad investment choice and pension payouts will drop. Are you going to advocate a change of unions then as well? Their plan as far as I can tell only involves the pension. Now I don't know about you, but every week I receive a paycheck, not a pension. I have medical, vacation, and other benefits to be concerned with. The APWA has nothing to bargain with as they have no strike fund, so the union's only real weapon, the strike, is useless. I can only imagine how bad that first contract would be. Luckily this group does not have the support it claims to have, and will not be the bargaining agent for UPSers within my lifetime. Maybe one day a real union, with real experienced officers, and a real history will come along to fix this pension issue, or maybe it will be fixed in the meantime. As for now the only place the APWA has support are the few morons such as yourself on this message board.
If the AWPA pension is based on a best case scenario, then why did teamsters Central States S.E. & S.W. report a 14.5% return for 2006 and we still are only funded at 59%?The AWPA plan in based on a 12.5% return invested in Income Fund of America. (Just do a simple google search to find it.)
The same recession would effect all funds.
Why is it that CS blames the drop in 2002 of the stock market to reduce our pensions, while other funds rebounded and are fully funded? Could it possibly be bad investment management?
Good point about receiving a paycheck, better point that you are not receiving a pension.
Strike fund, that should be a strong selling point to stay with the teamsters. Did you receive your $50.00 check in 1997? Did the teamsters union take out their union dues of $40.00. After taxes you could not buy lunch with that big strike fund check.
You ponder that maybe one day a real union will come along. How about building one from the ground up that only benefits UPSer's?
I do not know where you get the data that APWA is only supported on this board and no where else.
Sorry about the "I think not" comment, it was just too easy of a shot and I took it.
Now to the point of you trying to be insulting with the term morons, maybe I can help you with that. A maroon is the highest classification of mental deficiency,( ranging about 50 to 75 on the standard intelligence quotient scale) above imbecle and idiot. So, if you think someone is an idiot and you call them a maroon ,you actually are giving them a compliment.
Pax
 

Cole

Well-Known Member
Face it America was formed when people had had enough being stepped on, and that is how alot of us feel about the Teamsters. As far as a contract under the Apwa, the first would not be bad as you implyed, because the Teamster contract we have isn't that bad, it's just not enforced, take out several of the "may, mights', and replace with "must".

I feel confident we have people at UPS who have been involved and know quite alot about fighting, and building unity, I can tell you, from the representation we have seen, you have to learn how to do it on your own.

If it happens, I have no doubt many of the nay sayers are going to want to be involved, (and rightly so)because there can only be a single bargaining agent.

We didn't ask for this, but the Teamsters stopped even using vaseline;0
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
If the AWPA pension is based on a best case scenario, then why did teamsters Central States S.E. & S.W. report a 14.5% return for 2006 and we still are only funded at 59%?The AWPA plan in based on a 12.5% return invested in Income Fund of America. (Just do a simple google search to find it.)
The same recession would effect all funds.
Why is it that CS blames the drop in 2002 of the stock market to reduce our pensions, while other funds rebounded and are fully funded? Could it possibly be bad investment management?
Good point about receiving a paycheck, better point that you are not receiving a pension.
Strike fund, that should be a strong selling point to stay with the teamsters. Did you receive your $50.00 check in 1997? Did the teamsters union take out their union dues of $40.00. After taxes you could not buy lunch with that big strike fund check.
You ponder that maybe one day a real union will come along. How about building one from the ground up that only benefits UPSer's?
I do not know where you get the data that APWA is only supported on this board and no where else.
Sorry about the "I think not" comment, it was just too easy of a shot and I took it.
Now to the point of you trying to be insulting with the term morons, maybe I can help you with that. A maroon is the highest classification of mental deficiency,( ranging about 50 to 75 on the standard intelligence quotient scale) above imbecle and idiot. So, if you think someone is an idiot and you call them a maroon ,you actually are giving them a compliment.
Pax

I like how you avoid replying to most of my post with lame comments on the definition of a maroon. When your ready to have a real debate let me know.
 

30andout

Well-Known Member
Exactly, their pension payouts are based on a best case scenario. Throw in one good recession or one bad investment choice and pension payouts will drop. Are you going to advocate a change of unions then as well? Their plan as far as I can tell only involves the pension. Now I don't know about you, but every week I receive a paycheck, not a pension. I have medical, vacation, and other benefits to be concerned with. The APWA has nothing to bargain with as they have no strike fund, so the union's only real weapon, the strike, is useless. I can only imagine how bad that first contract would be. Luckily this group does not have the support it claims to have, and will not be the bargaining agent for UPSers within my lifetime. Maybe one day a real union, with real experienced officers, and a real history will come along to fix this pension issue, or maybe it will be fixed in the meantime. As for now the only place the APWA has support are the few morons such as yourself on this message board.
Better get out of your bubble and check out the rest of the country not posting on this board, the petition votes are coming in better than expected.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Better get out of your bubble and check out the rest of the country not posting on this board, the petition votes are coming in better than expected.

Just like they are signing those cards left and right in the facility I work at? Yea right, I have not seen a single APWA card nor been offered one. Keep telling yourself that, as its been said that if you lie to yourself enough you will start to believe your own lies.
 

Cole

Well-Known Member
Exactly, their pension payouts are based on a best case scenario. Throw in one good recession or one bad investment choice and pension payouts will drop. Are you going to advocate a change of unions then as well?

Well frankly there want be all the bs and red tape to go through to get something done about it. As far as strike fund, lol, do you really think you'll see a nickle of that with the Teamsters? The last time the $55.00 wasn't squat, but I knew that going in, and made out just fine when all was said and done.
So a dissident organization with no representation experience, no real plan for its supposed future members, and a fuzzy math pension plan is the answer? I think not.

No representational experience? So no one at UPS has been a steward, or been involved with the union at all?

That's the least of worries imho.
 

BigUnionGuy

Got the T-Shirt
Oct 17 2006, 01:19 PM
Post #1


Semi-Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29
Joined: 17-October 06
Member No.: 5,835




Van Skillman and Danny Eason are the self-declared officers of the APWA. Tom Coleman, Esq., is APWA's lawyer... But Coleman is much more than that. Here are a few things you should know about Francis "Tom" Coleman. Coleman is a partner in the Labor and Employment Law Section of Williams Mullen law firm in their Washington DC office. According to its web site, https://web.archive.org/web/20070201200759/http://williamsmullen.com/index.htm the firm helps employers:

- Defeat union organizing attempts for clients in major manufacturing sectors such as steel, paper, health care, printing, construction, and mining.

- Decertify unions (geeze, that's a familiar one)

- Train all levels of management in union avoidance (union busting)

Coleman is a member of the labor Lawyer's Advisory Committee and was the past chairman of a group called Cuncil for a Union-Free Environment (CUE). is this who you want advising the officers of an association that claims to be "SOLELY and EXCLUSIVELY for the benefit of any UPS employee? Francis T. Coleman has written two anti-union books that threaten the future of any and all unions. They are:

The De-Unionizing Handbook & Becoming Union Free.

WHO is APWA?
The two bozos, Skillman and Eason are employees at UPS in NC. Coleman is the attorney

WHERE is APWA?
is it at:
The home of Van Skillman in NC?
PO Box 58427
Raleigh, NC 27658

Williams Mullen Law Firm at
1666 K Street
Washington, DC ?

Or the state of Deleware, where APWA is registered as a non-profit organization?

WHAT is APWA?
According to the US Department of Labor, APWA is NOT a registered labor union. As of August 1st 2006, the Department of Labor has not received any application, paperwork from the APWA, Tom Colman Esq., Danny Eason, or Van Skillman.


APWA says that no one will ever be thrown out of any of their meetings for asking "a hard question that we don't want to answer". I challenge any of you to ask the following if you ever piss away you free time and actually attend one of these meetings:

1. Can I see you Bylaws and Constitution?
2. I see that you are registered as a non-profit. Can you show us your IRS tax filing, specifically the Form-990 which is required by 501 © (5) organizations that have over $25,000 income.
3. Why are you incorporated in Deleware. rather than North Carolina, where your mailing address is listed?
4. Does the APWA operate out of any offices in North Carolina where its mailing address is listed on its website and its two officers live?
5. Why does the IRS record your address at 1666 K Street in Washington DC? (Coleman's Law Firm)
6. How many members does APWA have?
7. Why hasn't APWA filed any registration forms as a labor organization with the departmrnt of labor?
8. Who are other officers / staff of APWA?
9. Have any of the officers of APWA ever negotiated a union contract?
10. Have any of the officers of APWA ever represented union members (i.e., as shop stewards etc.?)
11. Does APWA employ any staffers who are experienced in representing union members, as opposed to its attorney, who has expertise in union busting?

Think about it folks.... The Teamsters is 1.4 million strong, let's send the message that we care bout "our" union and its future. Let's dump these bozos and become more involved with our Teamster Locals and don't forget to vote for IBT officers, you should all have your ballots by now.


Why does the apwa continue to profess they are a Union ??

They haven't filed anything with the DOL ie: Department of Labor ??

Non-profit Religious Organization....

Why won't they answer the Questions ??




-Bug-
 

Cole

Well-Known Member
Think about it folks.... The Teamsters is 1.4 million strong, let's send the message that we care bout "our" union and its future. Let's dump these bozos and become more involved with our Teamster Locals and don't forget to vote for IBT officers, you should all have your ballots by now.

Strong?! lol when your biggest pension fund gets screwed like we did, that isn't my defintion of strong. It's 2007, most of our trucks don't have power steering, and no ventiliation in the backs of the trucks, still not my version of "strong".

Read the back of the Teamster magazines and let's talk about the corruption.

It's been awhile, but last time I was reading NLRB rulings, I saw alot more DFR charges against the Teamsters, than actual cases for the members. For those that don't know, DFR, is when someone files against the union for the union breaching the 'd'uty of 'friend'air 'r'epresentation, which is very minimal. Don't get me wrong I know there are Teamsters that are trying their best, but not enough, and certainly not enough to have kept our pension fiasco from happening. Is that Hoffa's view of "restoring the power".
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Well frankly there want be all the bs and red tape to go through to get something done about it. As far as strike fund, lol, do you really think you'll see a nickle of that with the Teamsters? The last time the $55.00 wasn't squat, but I knew that going in, and made out just fine when all was said and done.

So two wrongs make a right? If the APWA were to become our bargaining agent and declare a strike without a strike fund that would make them no better than the teamsters.


No representational experience? So no one at UPS has been a steward, or been involved with the union at all?

That's the least of worries imho.

Has either founders of the APWA ever been a steward? Has anyone associated with the APWA ever negotiated a labor contract? I'm willing to bet those answers are no, and no.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Strong?! lol when your biggest pension fund gets screwed like we did, that isn't my defintion of strong. It's 2007, most of our trucks don't have power steering, and no ventiliation in the backs of the trucks, still not my version of "strong".

I've seen you refer to this many times in regards to the strength of our union. For someone who claims to have 18 years of experience as a steward you are not familiar with the contract you supposedly know so well.

Article 18, Section 14 reads as such:

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]"All new package cars, P-32 and larger, added to the fleet after January 1, 1994, shall be equipped with package compartment venting. "[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]"All new package cars placed into service after August 1, 1997, shall be equipped with power steering."[/FONT][/FONT]

 

nospinzone

Well-Known Member
Hey Phil,

Haven't seen ya in a while. Good to have you back.
Since you've reverted to cutting/pasting your "questions", I'll start cutting/pasting my responses. Is that good for you?? And you should really update your copy of questions. The IBT election is over and there are no more ballots to sign. :cool:

1. Can I see your Bylaws and Constitution?
APWA has nothing to hide, as opposed to IBT who has to be forced by lawsuits and federal judges to produce documents. The bylaws and constitution were submitted during the incorporation process. In addition, Danny or Van would be happy to personally go over these documents with you in person at a meeting. Feel free to contact them for further questions. However, a point of interest here. I asked Eason once how often people want to see these documents, and his answer was that in the two years they have been traveling and talking to people, these documents were requested once. And when you do read these documents, you'll see how member oversight, transparency and integrity influenced every article and bylaw.

2. I see that you are registered as a non-profit. Can you show us your IRS tax filing, specifically the Form-990 which is required by 501 © (5) organizations that have over $25,000 income.
The answer is pretty simple. After review by the CPA’s, a tax return was not necessary. But if you don’t believe that, feel free to file a Form 4506-A with the IRS and see what their reply is. As for fiscal year 2006, the filing deadline is forthcoming. So we shall seen then if there is a return that is required.

3. Why are you incorporated in Deleware. rather than North Carolina, where your mailing address is listed?
According to the state of Delaware's incorporation website.....

www.corp.delaware.gov said:
More than half a million business entities have their legal home in Delaware including more than 50% of all U.S. publicly-traded companies and 60% of the Fortune 500. Businesses choose Delaware because we provide a complete package of incorporation services including modern and flexible corporate laws, our highly-respected Court of Chancery, a business-friendly State Government, and the customer service oriented Staff of the Delaware Division of Corporations.
Now, why is this a problem again? If Delaware is good for 60% of the Fortune 500 companies, then its good enough for the APWA and the UPS employees they intend to represent.

4. Does the APWA operate out of any offices in North Carolina where its mailing address is listed on its website and its two officers live?
I guess the answer to that is yes. APWA operates in every state, home, and workplace in the 50 states where its members, lawyers, and officers are telling people the good news that there is a better option to union representation. Part of being a wise steward of the memberships contributions includes recognizing when expenses are not justified. Renting office space at this juncture is not wise use of the memberships money. When was the last time the IBT cut off some fat from its operating expenses??

5. Why does the IRS record your address at 1666 K Street in Washington DC? (Coleman's Law Firm)
The legal firm that completes the application supplies their address.

6. How many members does APWA have?
Supplying specifics on the membership gives Teamsters (you) information to target and intimidate/threaten the people who are either interested in hearing about the APWA or are actively supporting the effort as members. Just sit tight until the election and then you will have the exact number of people supporting us

7. According to the US Department of Labor, APWA is NOT a registered labor union. As of August 1st 2006, the Department of Labor has not received any application, paperwork from the APWA, Tom Colman Esq., Danny Eason, or Van Skillman. Why hasn't APWA filed any registration forms as a labor organization with the departmrnt of labor?
Unions are required to file with the Department of Labor within ninety (90) days of being recognized as the collective bargaining agent by the NLRB. This occurs only after winning the secret ballot election conducted by the NLRB. So, 90 days after APWA wins the NLRB election and IBT is decertified as the collective bargaining agent at UPS, check back with the Department of Labor. They will have the forms you’re looking for then. In addition, I called up and talked to a nice guy named Andrew in the DOL office. He reinforced the above statement by saying that the DOL oversees internal operations of unions after the NLRB certifies them as the CBA. Just because a group of employees are not registered with the DOL, does not mean they are not a union.

8. Who are other officers / staff of APWA?
Almost half of the regional managers and vice presidents have been selected. Should these individuals be officially named into these positions, their ability to discuss issues with their co-workers would be limited by the NLRB. Now I'm sure you'd like that, wouldn't you. :wink:

9. Have any of the officers of APWA ever negotiated a union contract?
Before Hoffa was president, his experience was working for employers. He was a pro-employer lawyer who had only negotiated contracts for employers. And once in office, he surrounded himself with lawyers who had previously negotiated union contracts. APWA will use this time-proven method of hiring experienced labor lawyers to negotiate contracts based on what the members want in their contract. The Parcel Workers union will employ only the best pro-labor lawyers arguing their demands before UPS.

10. Have any of the officers of APWA ever represented union members (i.e., as shop stewards etc.?)
In excess of 80% of the APWA officers have represented union members in the positions described above. The experience and ability to connect with the members is there.

11. Does APWA employ any staffers who are experienced in representing union members, as opposed to its attorney, who has expertise in union busting?
See number 10. The Parcel Worker’s legal team and their expertise reaches far beyond the services of Tom Coleman. I can tell that you really like Tom…..
BigUnionGuy said:
Van Skillman and Danny Eason are the self-declared officers of the APWA. Tom Coleman, Esq., is APWA's lawyer... But Coleman is much more than that. Here are a few things you should know about Francis "Tom" Coleman. Coleman is a partner in the Labor and Employment Law Section of Williams Mullen law firm in their Washington DC office. According to its web site, (Williams Mullen) the firm helps employers:
- Defeat union organizing attempts for clients in major manufacturing sectors such as steel, paper, health care, printing, construction, and mining.
- Decertify unions (geeze, that's a familiar one)
- Train all levels of management in union avoidance (union busting)
Coleman is a member of the labor Lawyer's Advisory Committee and was the past chairman of a group called Cuncil for a Union-Free Environment (CUE). is this who you want advising the officers of an association that claims to be "SOLELY and EXCLUSIVELY for the benefit of any UPS employee? Francis T. Coleman has written two anti-union books that threaten the future of any and all unions. They are:The De-Unionizing Handbook & Becoming Union Free

Tom Coleman is all the things you described him as above. His career as a union busting lawyer been a successful one which is what scares and pisses you guys off at the IBT. However, Coleman’s sole purpose in the APWA campaign is to replace the IBT with the Parcel Workers union as the UPS CBA. Once APWA is successful, Coleman's relationship with the APWA will be over. With Tom Coleman no longer working for the APWA, the other seven or so lawyers spread from the East coast to the West coast in six different states and with long careers as pro-union legal counsel will take full responsibility for representing the APWA in legal matters. Tom Coleman is just the guy that gets to make the IBT’s life hell during the decert process.

And let me help clarify what you were trying to say there at the end, Phil.

BigUnionGuy said:
Think about it folks.... The Teamsters is 1.4 million strong(sucking the teet of UPS members dry), let's send the message that we care bout "our" union(aka…we IBT bosses care about our double pensions and exceedingly, gluttonous salaries) and its future. Let's dump these bozos(Eason and Skillman are really friggin scaring the sh** out of us so we need to call them clown names so we can sleep at night) and become more involved with our Teamster Locals(where you will promptly be told you are out of order if you disagree) and don't forget to vote for IBT officers(Hoffa’s gluttonous yes men at the trough), you should all have your ballots by now
 

Cole

Well-Known Member
As far as Carey, you have to look at what he inherited, and for the short span he was in he made a tougher stand than any I have seen. He cut waste by getting rid of the conferences, even cut his own salary, how many have done that? He also called a walkout when ups raised the weight limit to 150 lbs, with a government injuction. Like him or not he made guts. More time maybe he could have done more, ut I thought it awful strange once he was out, and Hoffa in, he was cleared. Seemed the company and the crooks got their way.

My point is that even when there's some good ones, overall there's too much corruption entrenched to get things straight.
 
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