Production termination!

[probellringer]

hi all... this guy went all out for us....he was always there for us ...answered our calls when we had ?'s ...gave us INFORMATION---he knew the contract inside and out...you all should be lucky enough to have a steward so knowlegeable---and caring as this guy was...he gave you the shirt off his back,the water out of his cooler,,gum out of the pack....a true man.....and we will miss him... he will rise again....no doubt....just want to tell him one last time---you did a phenomeal job ..keep up the good work

 

[tieguy]

It seems to me they sand-bagged him. Pure and simple, set him up. I would be curious to see how many times this so called arbitrator sided with the company on decisions. Although arbitrators are supposedly randomly picked, if this arbitrator has a history of siding with UPS, UPS might have gotten lucky with this 'random' choice.

Arbitrators are usually selected from a list with both the company and union agreeing on the choices.

 

[dilligaf]

As a steward it is my job to solicit grievances! No were in the contract does it say that i am not allowed. I encourage drivers to file for 9.5s and that is why i have more 9.5 drivers in my center than the rest of my building does in 4 centers combined.

I'm only 1 man, i can not watch every move a sup makes or every contract violation they do, without talking with the other employees to see what they know. Its become a lot easier, now that i have gained the trust of the drivers and when they see a sup, they either call me or text me all the info, stops the sup did, trk numbers, what time,,,etc.

I don't disagree with you Red. I'm just saying what I've heard here, from a long-time steward (8 yrs). It is what they are taught. Maybe Trpl and I are in the same boat being from the same (kinda) area.

 

[dilligaf]

maybe file a complaint with NASA and immigration too while you're at it.

Not sure that this has much to do with this thread, but it might work. Stranger things have happened.


The driver has responsibility here. He consistently demonstrated better performance results under direct supervision then he did when unsupervised. He was an experienced shop steward so I'm sure he understood the methods argument. yet for whatever reason he consistently did a much poorer job when unsupervised. He has responsibility in this case that we are now telling him to avoid by filing nuisance lawsuits.

As far as this being a nuisance lawsuit that would all depend on your perspective.

 

[tieguy]

I have never been a production problem and my sph range like a football score. Alot has to do with the edd cuts and the volume ( now area is alot bigger) Some days it could be 15 some days it could be 19.

without knowing all the numbers I would speculate that if he showed such a range he would still be working here. If however his results were consistently 2 to 3 stops below what he demonstrated under direct supervision then he would have a hard time explaining it.

Its too easy to throw up the company forced its will or the arbitrator was in the companys back pocket excuse. I think you have to dig a little deeper. Unions argument has always been that you can't be fired for production. You can be fired for if the company is willing to do a thorough case of documenting and holding you acountable.

Did the local believing they could easily win a production case relax here? For them to win this case they have to totally discredit every part of the OJS ride including the amount of work that was dispatched that day. Did they do so.

If you're the individual thats on the hot seat and you're using the same methods you used when the sup rode with you then you should at least show good days and bad days. Good days where you achieved the same results as the OJS ride or close to it. If you are consistently below your demonstrated results and never come close to it then somethings wrong.

 

[tieguy]

Correct me if I am mistaken but isn't the center managers and division managers bonus based on how good the production numbers of his drivers are?
Also, ever heard of MAR? minimum acceptble something (i forgot)
If you are allowed 9 minutes to do a certain part of your job and you do it in 7 minutes then 7 minutes becomes your MAR forever and ever.
Doesn't allow for unexpected intervening variables does it?

their bonuses are based on how the company does as a whole. whether they keep their job is based on whether they achieve their personal business plan. Exceeding their business plan does not get them any special bonuses.

 

[dilligaf]

Let me make sure I understand you. When you say you follow the methods UPS taught you, what you're really saying is you follow the methods UPS taught that you AGREE with. Any UPS method that you disagree with, you replace with a method the you make up. In your words, you don''t have to follow the UPS methods because your methods are better.

That's an interesting thought process you have when in your mind "you follow the methods".

What other UPS methods that you disagree with have you replaced with your own methods?

Where, ever, in BC did I say I was perfect and followed every method exactly and where more specifically in this thread did I say this. I didn't. I am not perfect, I do the best I can. If I do something wrong then it is between me and my sup and has NOTHING to do with YOU! So go suck an egg.

And for your information I was never taught any methods.

 

[New Englander]

I have never been a production problem and my sph range like a football score. Alot has to do with the edd cuts and the volume ( now area is alot bigger) Some days it could be 15 some days it could be 19.

without knowing all the numbers I would speculate that if he showed such a range he would still be working here. If however his results were consistently 2 to 3 stops below what he demonstrated under direct supervision then he would have a hard time explaining it.

Its too easy to throw up the company forced its will or the arbitrator was in the companys back pocket excuse. I think you have to dig a little deeper. Unions argument has always been that you can't be fired for production. You can be fired for if the company is willing to do a thorough case of documenting and holding you acountable.

Did the local believing they could easily win a production case relax here? For them to win this case they have to totally discredit every part of the OJS ride including the amount of work that was dispatched that day. Did they do so.

If you're the individual thats on the hot seat and you're using the same methods you used when the sup rode with you then you should at least show good days and bad days. Good days where you achieved the same results as the OJS ride or close to it. If you are consistently below your demonstrated results and never come close to it then somethings wrong.

Stop making sense.

 

[dilligaf]

Arbitrators are usually selected from a list with both the company and union agreeing on the choices.

Thanks Tie, I knew they came from a list but was unaware that they were agreed upon by both sides.

 

[browniehound]

How is that? As a cover driver the you typically drop and run, while the regular driver goes out of his way and puts the packages were the customer would like them.

The regular drivers tends to take his/her lunch, while the burner/cover driver doesn't.

The regular driver knows how to drive with the bulk head door closed, while the cover driver doesnt know how to close the bulk head.

Regular driver can move at a brisk pace, while the cover driver runs balls to the wall.

Regular driver has to work all the tracers from the no lunch taking, no method following runner cover driver.

Red, do think you may be generalizing your comments about cover drivers? Are you sure you want to paint all of them with your large opinion brush?

I know a lot of good cover drivers. I was one not too long ago. While your comments may hold true for some cover drivers, it also holds true for some drivers that have a route.

I can name as many route drivers that "don't take a lunch, don't know what a bulk-head door is, etc."

What are you worried about? A legit cover driver that does everything by the book doing your job better than you?

Why are you concerned about other drivers? They have zero effect on your employment with the company.

I only care about the job I do and never give a thought about your job. You care that someone doesn't take their lunch? Why? Why do you care? Its not your money the driver is giving to UPS.

If a driver covers my route and can do it faster than me then I think its great for him. I'm not going to move faster than him but I would run it differently if he had a suggestion that made me more efficent.


If it bothers you this much, my only advice would not to call in sick and let a "burner" make you look bad.

 

[tieguy]

As far as this being a nuisance lawsuit that would all depend on your perspective.

its supported by fact. The fact is a grievance process with an impartial arbitrator at the end of it is very difficult to overturn.

EEOC would be a case based on discriminatory practices. The employee never made a discrimation case during the entire grievance process. As such it won't go far. EEOC is a nuisance case at best.

NLRB is an option. the arbitrator would have to have violated some procedure or law for the NLRB to overturn it. With such a case based on clear quantifiable numbers its going to be very difficult to overturn this ruling.

So not saying its totally impossible but the persons best chance to win was during the actual grievance process.

 

[dilligaf]

Red, do think you may be generalizing your comments about cover drivers? Are you sure you want to paint all of them with your large opinion brush?
Of course you are right Brownie. It is not fair to paint all drivers the same no matter what color you are using.
I know a lot of good cover drivers. I was one not too long ago. While your comments may hold true for some cover drivers, it also holds true for some drivers that have a route.

I can name as many route drivers that "don't take a lunch, don't know what a bulk-head door is, etc."

What are you worried about? A legit cover driver that does everything by the book doing your job better than you?

Why are you concerned about other drivers? They have zero effect on your employment with the company.

I only care about the job I do and never give a thought about your job. You care that someone doesn't take their lunch? Why? Why do you care? Its not your money the driver is giving to UPS.
A stewards perspective is not just about the job. It is also about the contract.
If a driver covers my route and can do it faster than me then I think its great for him. I'm not going to move faster than him but I would run it differently if he had a suggestion that made me more efficent.


If it bothers you this much, my only advice would not to call in sick and let a "burner" make you look bad.

 

[HEFFERNAN]

I do not agree with I.E. much at all.

But

Being off 3 stops an hour is extremely significant. Just based on 8 hours, not many min/max ranges stretch 24 stops. That's about an hour to an hour and a half over.

I do agree with everyone that things add up during the day (can't find a package, waiting for check, walk up long driveway), but it would take things like this happening to you every hour to affect your spohr that bad.

Maybe he got too greedy and got caught. I hope his future becomes brighter.

 

[dilligaf]

its supported by fact. The fact is a grievance process with an impartial arbitrator at the end of it is very difficult to overturn.

EEOC would be a case based on discriminatory practices. The employee never made a discrimation case during the entire grievance process. As such it won't go far. EEOC is a nuisance case at best.

NLRB is an option. the arbitrator would have to have violated some procedure or law for the NLRB to overturn it. With such a case based on clear quantifiable numbers its going to be very difficult to overturn this ruling.

So not saying its totally impossible but the persons best chance to win was during the actual grievance process.

You are so right on the money. It would be a long exhaustive process to win this. But that is not for us to determine. We can sit here and say yea and nay all we want, but we aren't sitting in the drivers seat, so to speak!

 

[Bubblehead]

I smell a setup. The company wanted him gone and definitely didn't want to deal with him as BA if he prevailed in the upcoming election. The present union officials who were soon to be challenged by him in the election saw an opportunity to eliminate some competition.

I say this because like myself, every other poster on this subject, all state that they have never heard of a production termination being upheld in any forum whether it be a panel or arbitrator decision. SOMETHING STINKS HERE!!!

 

[pickup]

I do not agree with I.E. much at all.

But

Being off 3 stops an hour is extremely significant. Just based on 8 hours, not many min/max ranges stretch 24 stops. That's about an hour to an hour and a half over.

I do agree with everyone that things add up during the day (can't find a package, waiting for check, walk up long driveway), but it would take things like this happening to you every hour to affect your spohr that bad.

Maybe he got too greedy and got caught. I hope his future becomes brighter.

Is it possible that this guy was answering the phone quite a bit while out there( given the number of guys he helped with grievances_) and this slowed him down ?I noticed my shop steward gets a lot of cell phone calls from other drivers, (or he is just pretending to get a call so he can get away from me)

 

[browniehound]

I have never been a production problem and my sph range like a football score. Alot has to do with the edd cuts and the volume ( now area is alot bigger) Some days it could be 15 some days it could be 19.

without knowing all the numbers I would speculate that if he showed such a range he would still be working here. If however his results were consistently 2 to 3 stops below what he demonstrated under direct supervision then he would have a hard time explaining it.

Its too easy to throw up the company forced its will or the arbitrator was in the companys back pocket excuse. I think you have to dig a little deeper. Unions argument has always been that you can't be fired for production. You can be fired for if the company is willing to do a thorough case of documenting and holding you acountable.

Did the local believing they could easily win a production case relax here? For them to win this case they have to totally discredit every part of the OJS ride including the amount of work that was dispatched that day. Did they do so.

If you're the individual thats on the hot seat and you're using the same methods you used when the sup rode with you then you should at least show good days and bad days. Good days where you achieved the same results as the OJS ride or close to it. If you are consistently below your demonstrated results and never come close to it then somethings wrong.

I have to agree with this. Its not like this driver was .3, .7 or even 1 stop under his demonstrated performance. Three to four stops an hour equals 27-36 stops for a 9 hour day. I'm sorry, but that is more than significant.

I would be embarassed if it were me. We all work faster when management is with us and we don't gab with the customers at all. I'm thinking they could shave 10-20 minutes off my day.

Thirty stops is 1.5-2.5 hours of work depending where you are.

My suggestion is before you fire him, point it out. Give him 2 more 3-day rides to make sure management is being fair. Then if he is consistenly 3 stops over then he should probably be terminated.

I say this because its not even about management's numbers. Its about what you showed them and what you do in their absence.

 

[New Englander]

Is it possible that this guy was answering the phone quite a bit while out there( given the number of guys he helped with grievances_) and this slowed him down ?I noticed my shop steward gets a lot of cell phone calls from other drivers, (or he is just pretending to get a call so he can get away from me)

The point of us working at UPS is to deliver boxes. Above all else he still has a job to do.

Your only asking for trouble if you run one number with the supes riding you and then do 25 to 35 stops per day LESS when they leave you alone.

If UPS documented and it stuck, I'm guessing this wasn't just a few times.

 

[BigBrownSanta]

I guess we can all now lay to rest the "I've never heard of anyone being fired for production" comments. It's happened and it really is a sad day.

 

[dilligaf]

Like many on this site as a user i have made some very good friends. Several years back a group of drivers from local 804 in new york came in to Chicago for a weekend. We decided to meet and go out for some beverages over the weekend. I have kept in contact with them via email, this site and an occasional phone call here and there.

One of these drivers was terminated for production, he just so happens to be a union steward and an active one. Well long story short, i received a phone call today and informing me that the arbitrator ruled with the company and upheld this termination.

I have just spent the last hour reading the ruling from the arbitrator and its clear that she did not like this driver.

Everyone should be very aware that now that ups has this victory under their belt, you can expect to see many more terminations for productions in the very near future. This is a sad day, this driver was only off about a stop to stop and a half of what his performance ride was under perfect conditions.

CYA!!!!!!!!!!!

I have never been a production problem and my sph range like a football score. Alot has to do with the edd cuts and the volume ( now area is alot bigger) Some days it could be 15 some days it could be 19.


I have to agree with this. Its not like this driver was .3, .7 or even 1 stop under his demonstrated performance. Three to four stops an hour equals 27-36 stops for a 9 hour day. I'm sorry, but that is more than significant.

I would be embarassed if it were me. We all work faster when management is with us and we don't gab with the customers at all. I'm thinking they could shave 10-20 minutes off my day.

Thirty stops is 1.5-2.5 hours of work depending where you are.

My suggestion is before you fire him, point it out. Give him 2 more 3-day rides to make sure management is being fair. Then if he is consistenly 3 stops over then he should probably be terminated.

I say this because its not even about management's numbers. Its about what you showed them and what you do in their absence.

I wonder where the numbers starting getting skewed? Red said originally 1 to 1 1/2 stops, now all of a sudden (relatively speaking) it's up to 3 stops. If this happens so easily in here then imagine how easy it is for numbers to be skewed in the office where no one is watching. Theres a big difference between 9/13 stops and 27/36 stops.




Brownie, wasn't trying to pick on you, you just happened to be at the top of the column. LOL