Republicans war on unions marches forward

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Which part? Our contract is a national one and covers those in RTW states and states with closed shops, such as New York. I never said that I would withdraw from the union if NY became the next RTW state--I appreciate all that they do and would not feel right taking advantage of the union benefits without paying my fair share.

Look at the RTW states in the South and the economic revitalization they are experiencing as a result. Auto and aerospace companies, just to name a few, have either added or moved their entire operations to these states. This is a smart move on their part and a win for the communities they choose to move to.

You will see a two-tiered FT driver wage in either the 2013 or 2018 contract. You will also either see UPSers paying for a portion of their healthcare of sacrificing raises in lieu of doing so. The economic reality is that competition from Ground will force the company and union to rethink their current positions and future UPSers will work for a far different company than the one that we know today.

I would love to see NY go RTW.

Actually, this sounds plausible. Perhaps the new drivers will have to learn the limbo as they try and dance beneath an ever-lowering bar. My guess is that UPS will look a lot different in 2018 than it does now, unless Mr. Hoffa's testicles descend.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Ever looked at the taxes in the North?
That jumps that 20% up quite a few % points.

Parts of the South have fairly low taxes, others don't. Texas doesn't have a state income tax, but it does have high property taxes and sales taxes. If a Texan grosses $50,000, then 20% more is $60,000, which in much of the north would get you a similar lifestyle. Notice I did exclude major cities, especially along the Atlantic seaboard. Northerners pay more for winter heat, Southerners keep the a/c on most of the year. The south is definitely cheaper but anyone saying you can live better on half of what is needed up north is pulling your leg. If one makes $70k in Madison, WI he will be very unhappy with $35k in Austin, TX, two of the hippest, most popular college towns in the country.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
What I don't get is why, with talented union labor, union people don't start their own companies and compete? Everyone pool their resources together, start a company that competes with their former employer. If enough people did it they'd leave their former employer vulnerable with not enough experienced help, giving themselves a chance to be successful. Take cars, unions represent various parts manufacturers too, get everyone together and start your own group of companies. Prove to the world that Labor can make it happen.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
Parts of the South have fairly low taxes, others don't. Texas doesn't have a state income tax, but it does have high property taxes and sales taxes. If a Texan grosses $50,000, then 20% more is $60,000, which in much of the north would get you a similar lifestyle. Notice I did exclude major cities, especially along the Atlantic seaboard. Northerners pay more for winter heat, Southerners keep the a/c on most of the year. The south is definitely cheaper but anyone saying you can live better on half of what is needed up north is pulling your leg. If one makes $70k in Madison, WI he will be very unhappy with $35k in Austin, TX, two of the hippest, most popular college towns in the country.

People are mixing apples and oranges.

Manufacturing Companies are locating to the rural South.
Few if any manufacturing jobs are being located in Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Nashville, etc.
Blue collar jobs are being relocated to the rural South and White collar jobs in the cities.
Most Northern union jobs are blue collar jobs which is pretty much the focus of this thread.

Focus.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
People are mixing apples and oranges.

Manufacturing Companies are locating to the rural South.
Few if any manufacturing jobs are being located in Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Nashville, etc.
Blue collar jobs are being relocated to the rural South and White collar jobs in the cities.
Most Northern union jobs are blue collar jobs which is pretty much the focus of this thread.

Focus.

In this corner of Tennessee, just outside of Chattanooga, we have a VW plant, a Maytag plant, Whirlpool too, and an Amazon distribution center. But I think there are plenty of plants in bigger places. Toyota opened in San Antonio(bigger than Austin). Houston has a large manufacturing base. There has to be enough local population to meet needs.
 

Catatonic

Nine Lives
In this corner of Tennessee, just outside of Chattanooga, we have a VW plant, a Maytag plant, Whirlpool too, and an Amazon distribution center. But I think there are plenty of plants in bigger places. Toyota opened in San Antonio(bigger than Austin). Houston has a large manufacturing base. There has to be enough local population to meet needs.

In Metro Chattanooga? :wink2:

I was speaking in terms of tendencies and trends ... there are always exceptions.
The demographics must be right for a large company to locate a large manufacturing facility in a location. (Not to mention Logistics, water, etc.)
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Let me educate a real dummy. By catering to Big Business and giving them the RTW gift, perhaps there will be a rise in relatively low-paying jobs that aren't really middle class. The "gravy" all goes to the businesses who locate there. They either get the land for nothing or very little, and then the taxpayer pays for the infrastructure that will serve the plant...off-ramps, transit lines, etc. By the time the plant finally opens, each of the jobs created actually cost taxpayers a bundle.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that they get free/near-free land as a general rule (I have a good idea, though). As for the infrastructure, yes, it is paid for by taxpayers in those instances. And it all the other instances. That's typically who pays for the infrastructure that accompanies growth, which most people with functioning brains see as a good thing.

I live quite close to a huge manufacturer that employs over 150,000 people locally, and they've been in existence since the early 1900's. They still get huge tax breaks, and don't have to pay anything but a small portion of the environmental damage they have caused, which has cost billions to clean-up and is still ongoing. The Federal Government is picking up the tab because this ultra-profitable company threatens to relocate to the Mid-South if they don't get their way.

Whenever they introduce a new product line, they blackmail the state government into new perks lest they relocate that product line elsewhere. State politicians inevitably cave and the company gets it's way.

So what you're telling me is that it makes A LOT of sense to keep that employer in the area and that it pays to keep that employer in the area.

But if you ever tire of throwing them a nickel here or there to keep them as a major economic force in your area, feel free to send them down this way. You can keep the 150,000 unemployed folks.

But, overall, union workers produce a better product and have higher levels of productivity than their non-union counterparts.

Of course they do (snicker)!

Just ask anyone in the construction trade "who gets the job done right---the first time", and they will say "union workers". I have a friend who is a project manager for a major construction company that builds universities, hospitals, schools etc. They only use union labor, because they have learned the hard way that having to re-work a project is far more costly than doing it right the first time.

Oddly enough, there are virtually no union construction folks in this area and our structures are just fine. Granted, I don't conveniently have a friend who is a project manager for a major construction company, but, well, I lost faith in imaginary friends when I was 8.

Republicans and Libertarians are always crowing about "freedom", "self-reliance", and "exceptonalism", and then they support policies like RTW, which create mediocrity and jobs that go nowhere. Sure, maybe Billy Bob will get his AA from the local JC and become a foreman, but probably not. He'll work there for 30 years and then retire with his puny annuity...back to the single-wide from which he came.

Again, RTW does not make organizing any more difficult. It means that a person can't be fired from his job because he doesn't want to join the union.

The GOP is nothing but a front for Big Business, a clearing house for putting Republican policies into action. Snyder, Scott, Walker, and the rest are nothing but operatives for Big Business, who put them into office and will take care of them when they leave. That isn't the way our government is supposed to operate, is it? Is that freedom? No. it isn't. It's a corporatocracy, which you dummies interpret as "freedom" and representative democracy. The only thing really getting represented is business, not the people.

You're too dumb to see it.

Of course, your idea of freedom is more along the lines of micromanagement of just about every other company to the extent that they are nothing but benefits dispensers. But hey, if I had your brain, I'd probably see that as my only hope, too.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
Let me educate you too. The larger issue for Republicans is killing-off unions by drying-up funding. RTW accomplishes this. Also, maybe $15 per hour isn't so bad in Arkansas or Tennessee. But that same company is going to pay that same wage at it's facility in CA or New York. Not so good.

It won't pay that wage in CA or NY if the labor market won't support it. And if it doesn't, just close the place down and go south. That plant will either locate in a rural area where a $15/hour job is a big deal or it will go to a growing area where it will likely have to pay a little more to compete for suitable labor.

WE'LL TAKE IT!

As you keep lowering the bar and aiming for the bottom, you're actually undercutting your own job in the process. If FedEx Ground, for example, takes enough market share from UPS, Big Brown won't be able to afford the high wages that it pays. There won't be enough profit to pay for it.

Of course, this is the beauty of your "free market" at-work, right? Eventually, in the race for the bottom, we'll get there, and UPS will fill your cubicle with someone cheaper. Same for the package car drivers. That would be great, huh.

I should write a book, "Race to the Bottom and Other Economic Fallacies and Why We Laugh at Them."
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
In this corner of Tennessee, just outside of Chattanooga, we have a VW plant, a Maytag plant, Whirlpool too, and an Amazon distribution center. But I think there are plenty of plants in bigger places. Toyota opened in San Antonio(bigger than Austin). Houston has a large manufacturing base. There has to be enough local population to meet needs.

What they heck are you doing there? You're too close to my neck of the woods :)

I thought you were in North Dakota or some place like that.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
To quote Johnny Cash: "I've been everywhere, man, I've been everywhere".

You live way too close to me. Honk if you see me on 24 or at the lake! Or in Dalton! Or Memphis! Or Huntsville! Or Nashville! Or Birmingham! Or Knoxville! Or Alpharetta!

I'm down there/here somewhere! :)
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
Let me educate a real dummy. By catering to Big Business and giving them the RTW gift, perhaps there will be a rise in relatively low-paying jobs that aren't really middle class. The "gravy" all goes to the businesses who locate there. They either get the land for nothing or very little, and then the taxpayer pays for the infrastructure that will serve the plant...off-ramps, transit lines, etc. By the time the plant finally opens, each of the jobs created actually cost taxpayers a bundle.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that they get free/near-free land as a general rule (I have a good idea, though). As for the infrastructure, yes, it is paid for by taxpayers in those instances. And it all the other instances. That's typically who pays for the infrastructure that accompanies growth, which most people with functioning brains see as a good thing.

I live quite close to a huge manufacturer that employs over 150,000 people locally, and they've been in existence since the early 1900's. They still get huge tax breaks, and don't have to pay anything but a small portion of the environmental damage they have caused, which has cost billions to clean-up and is still ongoing. The Federal Government is picking up the tab because this ultra-profitable company threatens to relocate to the Mid-South if they don't get their way.

Whenever they introduce a new product line, they blackmail the state government into new perks lest they relocate that product line elsewhere. State politicians inevitably cave and the company gets it's way.

So what you're telling me is that it makes A LOT of sense to keep that employer in the area and that it pays to keep that employer in the area.

But if you ever tire of throwing them a nickel here or there to keep them as a major economic force in your area, feel free to send them down this way. You can keep the 150,000 unemployed folks.

But, overall, union workers produce a better product and have higher levels of productivity than their non-union counterparts.

Of course they do (snicker)!

Just ask anyone in the construction trade "who gets the job done right---the first time", and they will say "union workers". I have a friend who is a project manager for a major construction company that builds universities, hospitals, schools etc. They only use union labor, because they have learned the hard way that having to re-work a project is far more costly than doing it right the first time.

Oddly enough, there are virtually no union construction folks in this area and our structures are just fine. Granted, I don't conveniently have a friend who is a project manager for a major construction company, but, well, I lost faith in imaginary friends when I was 8.

Republicans and Libertarians are always crowing about "freedom", "self-reliance", and "exceptonalism", and then they support policies like RTW, which create mediocrity and jobs that go nowhere. Sure, maybe Billy Bob will get his AA from the local JC and become a foreman, but probably not. He'll work there for 30 years and then retire with his puny annuity...back to the single-wide from which he came.

Again, RTW does not make organizing any more difficult. It means that a person can't be fired from his job because he doesn't want to join the union.

The GOP is nothing but a front for Big Business, a clearing house for putting Republican policies into action. Snyder, Scott, Walker, and the rest are nothing but operatives for Big Business, who put them into office and will take care of them when they leave. That isn't the way our government is supposed to operate, is it? Is that freedom? No. it isn't. It's a corporatocracy, which you dummies interpret as "freedom" and representative democracy. The only thing really getting represented is business, not the people.

You're too dumb to see it.

Of course, your idea of freedom is more along the lines of micromanagement of just about every other company to the extent that they are nothing but benefits dispensers. But hey, if I had your brain, I'd probably see that as my only hope, too.


So what you are basically saying is the south is the new China. That's striving for the top.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
So what you are basically saying is the south is the new China. That's striving for the top.


I "liked" what you wrote because I thought it was clever, and in a way you are right...the South is the new China. But only in the sense that we increasingly accepting lower wages using the excuse that it's a "global economy". Car manufacturers who sell vehicles in China are already there, especially GM.

It's a bad comparison because China is a Communist/Quasi-Capitalist security state that operates very differnently from the US. There are no worker or environmental protections to speak-of, and although China has a growing middle-class, it's very small. Most Chinese are dirt-poor and work for very low wages in terrible conditions.

"Striving for the top" means middle-class wages and workers who have some means of negotiating with their employers. With RTW, it's the employer's way or the highway, just like at FedEx, a prototype for RTW. We have no means of bargaining for a better deal with FedEx..it's take it or leave it, and they have all the power, including the power to kill any union efforts.

I love the idiots who say that RTW doesn't make unionizing any more difficult.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
So what you are basically saying is the south is the new China. That's striving for the top.

Maybe. Perhaps if the people elsewhere would stop chasing employers away we wouldn't be having this discussion. And don't you think you're being a little overdramatic? Go look at the south where the industrial boom is taking place.
 

59 Dano

I just want to make friends!
I love the idiots who say that RTW doesn't make unionizing any more difficult.

I love people who think that it should be legal for an employer to fire you for not belonging to a union.

And I love the people who are so thoroughly ignorant when it comes to the economics of labor.
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
So what you are basically saying is the south is the new China. That's striving for the top.

Maybe. Perhaps if the people elsewhere would stop chasing employers away we wouldn't be having this discussion. And don't you think you're being a little overdramatic? Go look at the south where the industrial boom is taking place.


No thanks homeboy. You can keep the south. I'll gladly pay the premium where I live. Nobody is chasing anyone away just as a lot of people blame illegals for taking jobs and driving down wages, you southerners are doing the same. How ironic.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
Parts of the South have fairly low taxes, others don't. Texas doesn't have a state income tax, but it does have high property taxes and sales taxes. If a Texan grosses $50,000, then 20% more is $60,000, which in much of the north would get you a similar lifestyle.

Taxes in this income range imo don't make huge lifestyle swings. Price of housing out measures it quite a bit imo.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I love people who think that it should be legal for an employer to fire you for not belonging to a union.

And I love the people who are so thoroughly ignorant when it comes to the economics of labor.

Ignorant people don't understand the politics that underlie RTW. The GOP could care less about workers, and they know that the financing of a major opponent will be undercut. That's also why they are attacking the USPS...biggest union in the US.

To the GOP, the only thing that matters is getting the cheapest possible labor available in order to maximize short-term profit and enrich the top people in the company pyramid. Short-sighted...and ignorant.

Yep, there sure are a lot of ignorant people regarding the economics of labor.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Taxes in this income range imo don't make huge lifestyle swings. Price of housing out measures it quite a bit imo.

But the problem as I see it is people up north seem to think we're all living in $50k houses. If I'm making $15 hr, I still can't afford a $150k house, and a $75k house will put you in poor neighborhoods, often with crime issues. If a couple are both working they can do better assuming they both are working decent jobs. 2 people making $19hr between them aren't living high on the hog. And that $150k house? In nicer, not extravagant areas you'd be lucky to find anything that cheap. Yes, I know in much of the Northeast prices are double that easily. But people make more, have roommates, rent out rooms, and often just struggle to make ends meet. Not how I want to live.
 

TUT

Well-Known Member
Maybe. Perhaps if the people elsewhere would stop chasing employers away we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Not that long ago we wouldn't do business with China due to human rights differences. Obviously the policy has changed (by popular vote to, lol), and now they leverage near slave labor against their own American Labor. Classy.

Corporations want a free market, but try to circumvent the free market on labor, hiring illegals, giving mfg away to countries with totally different economic situations, etc.

So when Foxconn gets their robots in place, that is actually the start of business coming back to America. A robot in America is more cost effective vs one in china, less freight.

Is there really an industrial boom anywhere in America today?
 
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