RTW passes in Michigan

[rudy5150]

This is a question for drivers......would you take a pay freeze for a yr or 2 to have better loaders? Better pay for part timers would lead to better workers!

 

[Macbrother]

Do you have any facts to back up your statement on the "vast majority"? How long have you been with UPS to develop such insight? Isn't it just really the people you work with that are your 'vast majority'? How many would that be?

I said, quite clearly, the "vast majority I see" and that your mileage may vary. Don't ask me for actual numbers when you haven't provided any yourself.

I made less than $130/week back when I was just starting out. It certainly didn't feel more valuable.

Regardless of what it felt like, it's both a mathematical and economical fact. That's too bad you had to work so many hours. I know exactly how you feel, I currently have three jobs and work over 55. What's unfortunate is you have this attitude that "the pay sucked for me" so that it should suck for everyone else.

Someone who came part time after August 1, 2002 and started at the $8.50 rate should be making $15.97 today, so just under half the Driver rate which is what you are asking for in a great big hurry. If that person showed a little initiative and earned Sorter pay or transferred to Preload or Midnight sorts, the would be at $16.97/hr which is more than half of Driver pay. Also, you fail to take into account that on top of your wage is the Pension contribution, which in the case of the WCTPF is $7.60/hr for 2012 bringing your total per hour wage to $23.57 not including what is paid for your benefits. Throw that on top and I bet you are well over the top driver rate. I don't think it's very unreasonable to see that people starting a few years later in the either the 2002 or 2008 Contract should be making a less. At my 10 year mark I was making $20.88/hr. (we'll leave out the paid holidays, sick pay, and very generous vacation package just to keep things simple)

Drivers are getting pension and holidays and vacations and everything you mentioned so if you're adding it to our wage you will of course be adding it to their wage as well, don't be obtuse. Given the hours and the workload I don't think making half their rate is unreasonable after five years.

Don't get me wrong, I hope everyone- Full and Part Time- come away very happy in the next Contract. Everybody working here now that is. I'm not going to lose any sleep over people that may never be hired. This Company has made a lot of money and it's all been on the backs of Hub workers, Package & Air Drivers, and Feeder Drivers so we more than deserve to share in the wealth. However, I'm also cognizant of the fact that Companies have a life cycle and we may be getting near that point where if we take too much UPS will start to strain under the burden. I'm not interested in having this Company go the way of others that were overburdened by their Union contracts. Of course, many of those Companies had other issues that caused their demise and I think were are still competitive, strong, and still the best at what we do.

Your words have said otherwise. What you have conveyed is that it's ok for you and your wages to strain or burden UPS; it's ok as long as your mouth as full -- as for everyone else, the guys that play every bit an integral role in the process, the thousands of other dues paying teamsters, the rest can starve for all you care.

This is a great idea. 9 days out of 10 I have to finish loading my truck anyways, and every other day we get a message that they need everyone to unload their pickup pieces. Of course, here in Michigan they will no longer have to pay dues, so maybe the part timers will equate that to a raise and show up for work more. I hope all the part timers realize that if you don't pay dues, you can't go to union meetings, vote in union elections or vote on any contract offers. So, the only way for you to express your concerns is by posting on obscure message boards via the internet

You get what you pay for.

 

[CharleyHustle]

You get what you pay for.

Quite right, and conversely what you work for.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

This is a question for drivers......would you take a pay freeze for a yr or 2 to have better loaders? Better pay for part timers would lead to better workers!

A higher PT wage does not necessarily equate to improved load quality or better workers but, yes, I would accept a pay freeze provided the money went to address the low PT wages.

 

[anonymous4]

A friend in a nearby hub texted me earlier today asking what the .15 cent differential was in the paycheck of a full-timer. I informed him this was in the local supplement and was for workers on the twi/night shifts. The catch being it only applies to full-time "members". After my reply I concluded to myself this best sums up the union and the glaring problems it faces, which will destroy it. The union is an aging beast that refuses to change and must be allowed to perish. I have justified both sides but it is clear the union is not about equality nor about getting all of its members the best. If it ever was, that time is gone.

Routinely I have pointed out the obvious. Part-timers cannot be held responsible for their own fate because the majority vote in this case is not at all an accurate one. Who are part-timers? Mainly people passing through. You are expecting the severely mentally handicapped to take care of themselves knowing full well it is not possible, will never be possible and most importantly it is of no fault of their own. Is it not in the favor of UPS to have such a system in place? The entire pie is awarded to the full timers. As a result discontent between the two groups further cracks an already collapsing model. The turnover ensures the cheapest help with the more fresh body will always be available. Nothing is done in our "leadership" because they don't care either. Our money is taken, to be funneled to one political party, despite our own individual viewpoints.

"Adapt to changing conditions" is something drilled into us but something we as a union don't quite get. The same tired characters handed elections by an uninformed majority ensure change is nonexistent. Let the RTW spread the country, let the union fall in the coming years. I am a hard worker and more than comfortable knowing I will be a valued commodity at UPS relative to the work I do over the stereotypical lazy union maroon I see in the filthy **** stall for 30 minute plus intervals. You and people like you deserve to drown in your own **** and you know who you are! I have friends who took another path and enjoy equal everything to what the union provides for full-timers. These are not all white collared men either. The world is more competitive than ever and the union, while a great idea in some facets is not evolving.

You guys need to learn to play fair with your handicapped part-time brothers for they do not know what they do and the game is always rigged against you. Merit should always get people ahead, why haven't unions figured that out and fought to integrate the obvious contradiction of the two concepts? You can list dozens of other glaring holes in the union mentality that will lead to its downfall and I wish it wasn't so.

 

[rudy5150]

Ups used to be a highly wanted job. People in the past would do whatever it took to get a job at ups and were jealous of people who worked there. This isnt the case anymore. Part time and full timers are pushed to their limits everyday yet part timers still earn poverty level wages.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

This is a question for drivers......would you take a pay freeze for a yr or 2 to have better loaders? Better pay for part timers would lead to better workers!

Yes. I have actually stated that here a few times. It will never happen though. There are too many UPSers with the mentality that they deserve a raise every year for whatever reason. I guess "just because". Part-timers need help. Us drivers are about to go up to $32/hr. Enough said.

 

[brown_trousers]

Yes. I have actually stated that here a few times. It will never happen though. There are too many UPSers with the mentality that they deserve a raise every year for whatever reason. I guess "just because". Part-timers need help. Us drivers are about to go up to $32/hr. Enough said.

Its not like us fulltimers are struggling to survive, paycheck to paycheck. I always hear a lot of talk about "supporting you fellow teamster brothers" here on the forums. So it would only make sense to support our closest teamster brothers (part-timers) by taking a wage freeze for few years.

And ill be honest, its not like that wage freeze is going to throw me into foreclosure or bankruptcy.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Its not like us fulltimers are struggling to survive, paycheck to paycheck. I always hear a lot of talk about "supporting you fellow teamster brothers" here on the forums. So it would only make sense to support our closest teamster brothers (part-timers) by taking a wage freeze for few years. And ill be honest, its not like that wage freeze is going to throw me into foreclosure or bankruptcy.

You may be surprised as to how many FTers do live paycheck to paycheck.

 

[anonymous4]

A lot of people live paycheck to paycheck, including those who cash checks of $50,000/week. Money doesn't necessarily mean smart and people tend to spend relative to what they make just like the peasants.

 

[Jones]

Do you guys really think that the only way PTers can get a raise is if FTers agree to a pay freeze, like somehow it's all your fault? I'm just glad you're nowhere near the negotiating table because I can't imagine all the other stuff you'd get rolled on.

 

[beentheredonethat]

Jones, the issue is there is only so much money to go around in the contract. Obviously and for good reason, the teamsters want more then the company wants to offer. Conversely, the company wants to give less then the teamsters want. Again, for a good reason. However, total awards whether this is straight out pay, amount of money into HW&Pen, amount of money for more time off etc will be a set number. Now it's up to both the company and the teamsters to divvy it up. How much to pension, how much to HW, and finally how much to PT and FT pay rates. I believe the company would rather have more for the PT since it would help to reduce turnover. The more that is given to FT, the less allocated for other areas such as PT pay rates.

 

[Jones]

Jones, the issue is there is only so much money to go around in the contract. Obviously and for good reason, the teamsters want more then the company wants to offer. Conversely, the company wants to give less then the teamsters want. Again, for a good reason. However, total awards whether this is straight out pay, amount of money into HW&Pen, amount of money for more time off etc will be a set number. Now it's up to both the company and the teamsters to divvy it up. How much to pension, how much to HW, and finally how much to PT and FT pay rates. I believe the company would rather have more for the PT since it would help to reduce turnover. The more that is given to FT, the less allocated for other areas such as PT pay rates.

That's all very well, but if you walk into the negotiations already talking about how you're willing to to agree to a pay freeze you might as just get on your hand and knees and assume the submissive posture. This company makes a lot of money and they are the employer, not the drivers. I didn't hire any part timers this year, so explain to me why I should be responsible for paying them or why they can only get a pay raise if I agree to a pay freeze? The company makes enough money to give all of us a raise, the only reason the part timers don't get one is because they don't participate in the process so neither the company nor the union worries/cares about them. Trying to frame it as a zero sum game between PT and FT is a false dichotomy.

 

[104Feeder]

No one is "propping" anyone up. That is foolish union thug propaganda. If they were then why are locals in every RTW state spending money on picnics (some multiple picnics) every year and still have money left over to spend on local campaign mailers and presidential elections? Not to mention the Teamsters give millions to the democrat party on a consistent basis. Yeah......it sure sounds like the RTW states are struggling. SYKE!

OK show me our Teamster picnic here in AZ (and how much does a picnic really cost anyway, if we had one?) The political money comes out of D.R.I.V.E., not union dues.
I really hope I do not live long enough to see your scenario where the entire U.S. is RTW so that you'll be proven wrong.
In AZ, roughly half of eligible UPSers have joined the Teamsters. We have the same complaints about our B.A.'s not being available, and I always ask how we are going to pay for more B.A.'s when half of the people they are required to be representing aren't paying dues. These people don't work for free. I'm sure you can see the difficulty of trying to organize new workplaces under these hindrances. I'd just love to hear your ideas of how we can find money out of thin air to improve our representation & increase our penetration.

 

[104Feeder]

I said, quite clearly, the "vast majority I see" and that your mileage may vary. Don't ask me for actual numbers when you haven't provided any yourself.


Regardless of what it felt like, it's both a mathematical and economical fact. That's too bad you had to work so many hours. I know exactly how you feel, I currently have three jobs and work over 55. What's unfortunate is you have this attitude that "the pay sucked for me" so that it should suck for everyone else.



Drivers are getting pension and holidays and vacations and everything you mentioned so if you're adding it to our wage you will of course be adding it to their wage as well, don't be obtuse. Given the hours and the workload I don't think making half their rate is unreasonable after five years.

Your words have said otherwise. What you have conveyed is that it's ok for you and your wages to strain or burden UPS; it's ok as long as your mouth as full -- as for everyone else, the guys that play every bit an integral role in the process, the thousands of other dues paying teamsters, the rest can starve for all you care.


You get what you pay for.

What I have said all along is that this job will pay off the longer you stick with it. I guess 5 years seems like an eternity to you, but I assure you it isn't. It takes roughly 10 years for the average employee to reach top pay in the fulltime/driver ranks. This is not unreasonable considering all the other factors. Next you will be wanting full retirement for p/t after 15 years, half as much as a Driver since they get roughly half the pension payment. Or maybe full pension payment since they contribute half as many hours but work just as many years. Step back and see how unreasonable your pay demands are.

 

[104Feeder]

A friend in a nearby hub texted me earlier today asking what the .15 cent differential was in the paycheck of a full-timer. I informed him this was in the local supplement and was for workers on the twi/night shifts. The catch being it only applies to full-time "members". After my reply I concluded to myself this best sums up the union and the glaring problems it faces, which will destroy it. The union is an aging beast that refuses to change and must be allowed to perish. I have justified both sides but it is clear the union is not about equality nor about getting all of its members the best. If it ever was, that time is gone.

Routinely I have pointed out the obvious. Part-timers cannot be held responsible for their own fate because the majority vote in this case is not at all an accurate one. Who are part-timers? Mainly people passing through. You are expecting the severely mentally handicapped to take care of themselves knowing full well it is not possible, will never be possible and most importantly it is of no fault of their own. Is it not in the favor of UPS to have such a system in place? The entire pie is awarded to the full timers. As a result discontent between the two groups further cracks an already collapsing model. The turnover ensures the cheapest help with the more fresh body will always be available. Nothing is done in our "leadership" because they don't care either. Our money is taken, to be funneled to one political party, despite our own individual viewpoints.

"Adapt to changing conditions" is something drilled into us but something we as a union don't quite get. The same tired characters handed elections by an uninformed majority ensure change is nonexistent. Let the RTW spread the country, let the union fall in the coming years. I am a hard worker and more than comfortable knowing I will be a valued commodity at UPS relative to the work I do over the stereotypical lazy union maroon I see in the filthy **** stall for 30 minute plus intervals. You and people like you deserve to drown in your own **** and you know who you are! I have friends who took another path and enjoy equal everything to what the union provides for full-timers. These are not all white collared men either. The world is more competitive than ever and the union, while a great idea in some facets is not evolving.

You guys need to learn to play fair with your handicapped part-time brothers for they do not know what they do and the game is always rigged against you. Merit should always get people ahead, why haven't unions figured that out and fought to integrate the obvious contradiction of the two concepts? You can list dozens of other glaring holes in the union mentality that will lead to its downfall and I wish it wasn't so.

I didn't know that Fedex paid their part time so much money & provided a better pension & healthcare plan that UPS. After all, they have never had the hindrance of a Union. I'll be sure to get this fact out to our severely mentally handicapped part timers so they can make the switch.

 

[Jones]

I didn't know that Fedex paid their part time so much money & provided a better pension & healthcare plan that UPS. After all, they have never had the hindrance of a Union. I'll be sure to get this fact out to our severely mentally handicapped part timers so they can make the switch.

McDonald's and Wendy's are non union and they always seem to be hiring, Wal-Mart also has many career opportunities. The free market is calling out to you my friend, throw off those union shackles and seize your destiny!

 

[104Feeder]

McDonald's and Wendy's are non union and they always seem to be hiring, Wal-Mart also has many career opportunities. The free market is calling out to you my friend, throw off those union shackles and seize your destiny!

Sweet! If we get free food maybe they will let me work for free!

 

[CharleyHustle]

OK show me our Teamster picnic here in AZ (and how much does a picnic really cost anyway, if we had one?) The political money comes out of D.R.I.V.E., not union dues.

I certainly do enjoy your posts, and would like to see more members become as knowledgeable as yourself on the issues. While D.R.I.V.E. is the political action arm of the Teamsters, there probably are instances on mostly the local level where dues receipts are used for what could be argued as political action. It is these actions that brought about lawsuits that eventually became known as "Beck Rights". Any union employee, even in non-RTW states can enforce their "Beck Rights" and their local is made to have what used to be called a "Beck audit", after which the member would only be libel for such dues that don't support political action. Picnics, depending on the reason, like getting nonmembers in RTW states to sign up to pay dues would most likely be OK, as would coffee and donuts for regularly scheduled meetings.

 

[tourists24]

Jones, the issue is there is only so much money to go around in the contract. Obviously and for good reason, the teamsters want more then the company wants to offer. Conversely, the company wants to give less then the teamsters want. Again, for a good reason. However, total awards whether this is straight out pay, amount of money into HW&Pen, amount of money for more time off etc will be a set number. Now it's up to both the company and the teamsters to divvy it up. How much to pension, how much to HW, and finally how much to PT and FT pay rates. I believe the company would rather have more for the PT since it would help to reduce turnover. The more that is given to FT, the less allocated for other areas such as PT pay rates.

Well,,,, this last contract the part timers gained very slightly compared to the full timers, as friend/t got the smallest pay raises in any contract since Ive been at UPS.... not sure the answer here, but Id say there is absolutely no way Id accept a freeze in pay as long as UPS is turning good profits