Sitting Arbitrator

[705red]

This past Thursday was the first time that we had a fifth man (arbitrator) sitting at our discipline hearings. We had three cases that we heard.

The first case was a 32 year employee who was fired for dishonesty. The company accused him of stealing time, 2minutes hear 2 minutes there. This case was the first that was heard and took 2 and a half hours to be presented. The case was deadlocked by the panel and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

Second case was a tug driver at O'Hara who hit a pothole and broke the windshield and blew out a tire. He reported the damage and was fired for not reporting an accident. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Greivant was put back to work!

Third case was an air driver that slid on snow/ice in to an intersection and was involved in a serious accident. She was fired for gross negligence. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

I encourage all locals to get this sitting arbitrator in their language! All three of these employees would have been out at least 18 months waiting on arbitration!

 

[over9five]

Wow, that was a good day!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

This past Thursday was the first time that we had a fifth man (arbitrator) sitting at our discipline hearings. We had three cases that we heard.

The first case was a 32 year employee who was fired for dishonesty. The company accused him of stealing time, 2minutes hear 2 minutes there. This case was the first that was heard and took 2 and a half hours to be presented. The case was deadlocked by the panel and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

Second case was a tug driver at O'Hara who hit a pothole and broke the windshield and blew out a tire. He reported the damage and was fired for not reporting an accident. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Greivant was put back to work!

Third case was an air driver that slid on snow/ice in to an intersection and was involved in a serious accident. She was fired for gross negligence. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

I encourage all locals to get this sitting arbitrator in their language! All three of these employees would have been out at least 18 months waiting on arbitration!

That is going on the growing list of things I will push for in 4.5 years when we get our mail outs asking for input on the next contract. If I get one.

 

[Bloodybrown]

This past Thursday was the first time that we had a fifth man (arbitrator) sitting at our discipline hearings. We had three cases that we heard.

The first case was a 32 year employee who was fired for dishonesty. The company accused him of stealing time, 2minutes hear 2 minutes there. This case was the first that was heard and took 2 and a half hours to be presented. The case was deadlocked by the panel and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

Second case was a tug driver at O'Hara who hit a pothole and broke the windshield and blew out a tire. He reported the damage and was fired for not reporting an accident. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Greivant was put back to work!

Third case was an air driver that slid on snow/ice in to an intersection and was involved in a serious accident. She was fired for gross negligence. Again the panel was deadlocked and the arb broke the tie.
Grievant was put back to work!

I encourage all locals to get this sitting arbitrator in their language! All three of these employees would have been out at least 18 months waiting on arbitration!

Red,
Did any of these employees get back pay??.....or was it time served??...You see in most districts thats exactly what would have happened. ( time served, final warning , without an arbitrator) In your local everything gets deadlocked unless the company gives in. Your locals leadership is not reasonable and does not do the right thing. In there eyes the employee is always right and UPS is always wrong. Thats the real problem. Arbitrators are a waste of money, you guys should be in the process like the rest of the country. Local level hearings, if not resolved it goes to a state panel and if still not resolved it goes to the joint area council. Its actully held in Chicago most of the time for your region of the country. 705 and 710 are the only locals that don't participate. It is good however that with your new contract the arbitrator is there and the employee does not have to sit for upto 18 month to find out therr faith.

 

[Jones]

Red,
Did any of these employees get back pay??.....or was it time served??...You see in most districts thats exactly what would have happened. ( time served, final warning , without an arbitrator) In your local everything gets deadlocked unless the company gives in. Your locals leadership is not reasonable and does not do the right thing. In there eyes the employee is always right and UPS is always wrong. Thats the real problem. Arbitrators are a waste of money, you guys should be in the process like the rest of the country. Local level hearings, if not resolved it goes to a state panel and if still not resolved it goes to the joint area council. Its actully held in Chicago most of the time for your region of the country. 705 and 710 are the only locals that don't participate. It is good however that with your new contract the arbitrator is there and the employee does not have to sit for upto 18 month to find out therr faith.

Wow, someone's a sore loser . I suspect that if the arbitrator had ruled for the company you would be singing his praises from the nearest rooftop....

 

[drewed]

Its still a waste of money, gotta imagine depending on the length of a case and what not it could be 10k EASY, Should we be burning through that money like that?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Its still a waste of money, gotta imagine depending on the length of a case and what not it could be 10k EASY, Should we be burning through that money like that?

I would think that if your job, career, family and future depended upon it, you would most likely say "Yes!!"

 

[drewed]

I would think that if your job, career, family and future depended upon it, you would most likely say "Yes!!"

Im not arguing that point, i agree with that.....Im sort of feeling what bloodybrown was saying....maybe these issues could have been resolved in the lower level hearings if 705 wasnt so hard up with the blind following of the employee. Im not going to argue whether or not the 705 should fight for their employees, of course they should but I can almost guarantee they also protect employees they shouldnt which in itself with arbitration costs, could cost jobs.

 

[MonavieLeaker]

Its still a waste of money, gotta imagine depending on the length of a case and what not it could be 10k EASY, Should we be burning through that money like that?

If it justifies an employee keeping their job then yes

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

BB made some valid points and I fully agree that all avenues need to be explored before a case goes to panel. This would obviously save money but, more importantly, the affected employee would either return to work more quickly or decide what his next step will be.

 

[Jones]

I can guarantee you that if you were one of those wrongfully terminated employees who didn't have to wait to an extra 18 months to find out if they still had a job, you would understand that the sitting arbitrator is worth every penny. If the company is so concerned about the costs involved, here's a novel idea: Don't fire people for the wrong reasons, and don't take cases to panel that you're not going to win.

If the company hadn't wrongfully terminated those folks in the first place, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[drewed]

See to me, it sounds like the relationship between the 705 and chicagoland management isnt good, so managements going to hold the company line and the 705 is going to hold the union line so in almost all cases are destined to go to arbitration, am I wrong Red?

 

[Jones]

double post

 

[Bloodybrown]

Wow, someone's a sore loser . I suspect that if the arbitrator had ruled for the company you would be singing his praises from the nearest rooftop....

Do you realize houw dumb you sound

 

[trickpony1]

Do you realize houw dumb you sound

I don't think Jones sounds dumb at all.
I also don't think the "u" key and the "w" key are very close together on the keyboard.

 

[backinbrown]

I don't think Jones sounds dumb at all.
I also don't think the "u" key and the "w" key are very close together on the keyboard.

that was funny

 

[705red]

Red,
Did any of these employees get back pay??.....or was it time served??...You see in most districts thats exactly what would have happened. ( time served, final warning , without an arbitrator) In your local everything gets deadlocked unless the company gives in. Your locals leadership is not reasonable and does not do the right thing. In there eyes the employee is always right and UPS is always wrong. Thats the real problem. Arbitrators are a waste of money, you guys should be in the process like the rest of the country. Local level hearings, if not resolved it goes to a state panel and if still not resolved it goes to the joint area council. Its actully held in Chicago most of the time for your region of the country. 705 and 710 are the only locals that don't participate. It is good however that with your new contract the arbitrator is there and the employee does not have to sit for upto 18 month to find out therr faith.

Yes of course one of them won back pay for all lost time. We dont look at the employee, we look at the contract to see if it was violated. If its been violated it goes to panel, if its not it gets signed off before panel. Its the company that is unreasonable! THEY WANT TO TRADE CASES AND THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN HERE EVER AGAIN!

Its still a waste of money, gotta imagine depending on the length of a case and what not it could be 10k EASY, Should we be burning through that money like that?

Both sides now split the cost of the arbitrator monthly. In January there were no terminations and the arb still got paid. After watching February's panel, i don't think there will be any terminations for march!

Im not arguing that point, i agree with that.....Im sort of feeling what bloodybrown was saying....maybe these issues could have been resolved in the lower level hearings if 705 wasnt so hard up with the blind following of the employee. Im not going to argue whether or not the 705 should fight for their employees, of course they should but I can almost guarantee they also protect employees they shouldnt which in itself with arbitration costs, could cost jobs.

All we want is what we have negotiated, no more no less! And we would love to expedite the grievance procedure a little to.

 

[705red]

Red,
you see in most districts thats exactly what would have happened. ( time served, final warning , without an arbitrator) In your local everything gets deadlocked unless the company gives in. Your locals leadership is not reasonable and does not do the right thing

I just want to make a few comments about your words and you can tell me whos not being fair.

The burden of proof in a discipline case lies solely on the company. And in most cases we are at the mercy of ups when it comes to handing over information that the union thinks will help its defense. For years now we have been unable to get all of the info. So now we have started to request the info 3 times over a respectable period of time.

When we do not receive this info we are now filing ulp's against the company.

In the first case none of the witnesses were allowed to hear other testify. The union had asked for a copy of all the moves and messages that were sent to this employee to show that he had lost his links through out these several days. Company never handed this over.

So in a cross exam of the manager when he was asked "how come he didnt turn over this info" He replied he did turn it over to labor and that it should be in the packet that we are viewing.

Well guess what? It wasnt!
The arbitrator took notice on this.

SO please explain to me bloody how the union is the one being unreasonable! A 32 year driver whos own report would have shown that he had problems with his shift com was terminated for theft of time! Whos really guilty of being dishonest here?

 

[705red]

BB made some valid points and I fully agree that all avenues need to be explored before a case goes to panel. This would obviously save money but, more importantly, the affected employee would either return to work more quickly or decide what his next step will be.

I agree on exploring all the avenues, but it is important to get these cases to panel for the next panel date. Each one of these 3 grievants were of no more than 3 weeks before coming to panel.

This also helps the company, because the arb is more willing (imo) to split a decision to put the employee back to work while only missing a few days of pays compared to 18 months of pay.

If a discipline case is upheld at panel with the arb, this case is done. There is no more steps to the process.

We have been preparing for this for several years, this is why we have all been sent to school for arbitration so we can present these cases.

My hats off to both the agents that put on these cases, they both did a great job and weere on top of their game this day.

 

[Bloodybrown]

I don't think Jones sounds dumb at all.
I also don't think the "u" key and the "w" key are very close together on the keyboard.

That's because you and jones are two peas in a pod You and Jones don't seem to understand the objective of discipline is to change behavior, not terminate people. If bringing these people to a panael changes thier behavior, the system worked. You and jones seem to think I lost......that proves your lack on intellegence...............you need some serious help