So much for raising taxes on just the rich...

moreluck

golden ticket member
From a Lou Dobbs column........

The text of the House passed bill contains language making "non resident aliens" _ illegal immigrants _ ineligible for the tax rebates. But every year, hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants use individual taxpayer identification numbers, known as ITINs, to file income tax returns with the IRS. These ID numbers are used instead of Social Security numbers. There are no exact statistics for how many illegal immigrants file tax returns, but this New York Times story from last year details the significant increase in use of ITINs. This story also lays out the issue.

Immigration advocates point out that many legal immigrants use ITINs, so it would be impossible to tell who is legal and who is not from those who use these IDs. The Senate version of the bill would prohibit use of ITINs, meaning some legal immigrants would not receive rebates.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0108/Lou_Dobbs_alert_Illegal_immigrants_may_get_rebates.html

also: http://tinyurl.com/zob77 (borrowed from trplnkl)
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
There was no "trick bag" or contrast. It's quite simple really. There are millions of Americans that supposedly can't find a job or enough work to fend for themselves. Those of us with the drive to succeed and with initiative have to pay for their woes. Maybe if they were given a little incentive, such as being required to pay their share of taxes, they would get up from their reality tv programs and get out and find a job or a second job so they can learn to make ends meet themselves instead of depending on the government to give them handouts at the expense of the rest of us. It can't be that hard to find work. I mean just look at all the millions of foreigners (both legal and illegal) that come here and seem to have no trouble landing a job or two. My believing that the upper AND the middle class shouldn't have to pay more taxes and believing that EVERYONE should have to contribute equally aren't contrasting beliefs.

How can you extoll the evils of the progressive income tax, a plank of the communist manifesto if you will, and how we should not be under such a tax scheme but then you turn around and demand a segment of society outside it's bounds so to speak be made to pay it? By adding more bodies to the system, you in effect strenghten it's hold on you. Instead of propping up that system, you should vote for the people who propose and have ideas to not only end the tax system itself but also the underlying welfare state that sucks to economic lifeblood from you. While the do-gooders so to speak decry the rich for not paying their fair share, you join the chorus of the opposite decrying the entitlement class is not paying enough, Sitting in the middle is the tax class who win no matter which side prevails and you still lose.

As nice a the fair tax might seem I still oppose because of the underlying principle that a central gov't authority when given the power to tax will in the end abuse such authority and become counter-productive to the economic wellbeing of society as a whole. Why work feverishly to make these people taxpayers when the real goal is to end the welfare state to begin with and to free all of us from the excessive tax burden. That's the trick bag we've gotten ourselves into.

Ronald Reagan extolled the evils of federal taxation and especially the income tax but then with the TEFRA Tax Act he made a major shift in which IMO he compromised the principle of limited federal power via taxation and just began the process that ended in 86' with the new tax code that lowered the tax rates which put everyone back to sleep. Fair Tax does the same and IMHO taxing the entitlement class, as fair as that may seem, again embeds the idea that federal taxation of income is the only way it works.

JMO
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
From a Lou Dobbs column........

The text of the House passed bill contains language making "non resident aliens" _ illegal immigrants _ ineligible for the tax rebates. But every year, hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants use individual taxpayer identification numbers, known as ITINs, to file income tax returns with the IRS. These ID numbers are used instead of Social Security numbers. There are no exact statistics for how many illegal immigrants file tax returns, but this New York Times story from last year details the significant increase in use of ITINs. This story also lays out the issue.

Immigration advocates point out that many legal immigrants use ITINs, so it would be impossible to tell who is legal and who is not from those who use these IDs. The Senate version of the bill would prohibit use of ITINs, meaning some legal immigrants would not receive rebates.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0108/Lou_Dobbs_alert_Illegal_immigrants_may_get_rebates.html

also: http://tinyurl.com/zob77 (borrowed from trplnkl)

The rebates will only be sent to those with a valid social security number. Not the Individual Tax Identification Numbers. ITINs aren't used instead of SSNs. They can't be used by illegals to obtain work. The only reason the IRS issues them to illegals is so that in spite of knowing that they are illegal they will at least be participating in taxes. That is the theory anyway. Most illegals, unless they are working for cash under the table, work with someone else's SSN. In most cases they are bought directly from that person or from someone that steals and then sells them to illegals. They get the ITIN too so that they can file. I always laugh when I hear people say that they don't pay taxes. The IRS, according to a segment on this subject I saw on Fox News a few years ago, can see which income for a SSN is earned from the real person and which was earned from someone else. In fact, the taxes and income from an illegal are not credited to the person to which the SSN actually belongs. When an illegal files taxes they use the ITIN. Some tax professionals will do their taxes and use the ITIN in conjunction with the SSN number they were working with. The results, whether they end up paying taxes or get a return, don't effect the person that the SSN belongs to.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
How can you extoll the evils of the progressive income tax, a plank of the communist manifesto if you will, and how we should not be under such a tax scheme but then you turn around and demand a segment of society outside it's bounds so to speak be made to pay it? By adding more bodies to the system, you in effect strenghten it's hold on you. Instead of propping up that system, you should vote for the people who propose and have ideas to not only end the tax system itself but also the underlying welfare state that sucks to economic lifeblood from you. While the do-gooders so to speak decry the rich for not paying their fair share, you join the chorus of the opposite decrying the entitlement class is not paying enough, Sitting in the middle is the tax class who win no matter which side prevails and you still lose.

You are making this more complicating then it is. All I want is everyone to pay their share. That is it. Plain and simple. And the part about me demanding a segment of society "outside it's bounds" to pay their share made me laugh because of the irony in the statement. The irony being that that is the whole point of all of this. The only "bounds" that people are placed in are the bounds in which they place themselves. That is where personal responsibility comes in.

As nice a the fair tax might seem I still oppose because of the underlying principle that a central gov't authority when given the power to tax will in the end abuse such authority and become counter-productive to the economic wellbeing of society as a whole. Why work feverishly to make these people taxpayers when the real goal is to end the welfare state to begin with and to free all of us from the excessive tax burden. That's the trick bag we've gotten ourselves into.

If we make these people taxpayers then that is one step closer to getting them ouf of their welfare state. If they are required to pay their share then they will have to get out and find more work. They might even find the will to go to school and find better jobs. Who knows?They would be breaking free from the "bounds." If they got themselves into those bounds then they can, and should, be able to get themselves out.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I guess the difference between you and I is you want to make everyone taxpayers (pay their fair share) with a "COMPLICATED" tax system and I want to make everyone non-taxpayers at the federal level with an "UNCOMPLICATED" tax system! Thought I'd borrow the very word you used.

You want a Wislon/FDR/JFK/LBJ/Nixon/Carter/Reagan/Bush1/Clinton/Bush2 tax system and I want a Madison/Jefferson/Henry style federal tax system. In fact, you could name most any early founders as the organic constitution had direct prohibitions against the federal gov't from direct taxation of the citizen so in the day especially as it relates to income, they were all non-taxpayers. I'd say you've got pretty much what you want and now it's just a simple "mopping up action" to get all the marbles into the same sack.

Did you ever consider if they did pay their fair share that the gov't would get even more money and the welfare giveaways might become even more massive? They'd have more funds for earmarks and giveaways to buy votes with and to further entrench themselves. Ever give that any thought?
Do you enjoy the sport of "FEEDING DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS who think they are better at it!"
:happy-very:

You said:
You are making this more complicating then it is. All I want is everyone to pay their share.

Interesting point. Frankly I see it quite simple but be that as it may. Sounds like instead of forcing a system that is wrong and counterproductive in the long run to retrace itself out of our lives, you are throwing in the towel. exclaiming to so-called "liberal and democrats" if you will, that, "OK, YOU WIN! But let's also tax everybody just so I'll feel somewhat vindicated in some way."

Even the Fair Tax has a portional set aside to use as a selling point to overcome the "poor can't pay" arguement so that thinking is already engrained even in so-called "conservative" circles. Even these conservatives don't believe in the concept of paying one's fair share! An alternative flat tax, sales tax, etc. was knifed in the back IMO when Reagan pushed TEFRA and then the new 1986' tax code through Congress. He made income taxation acceptable by selling the idea of manageable gov't. It's like saying Christian Satanist to me!
:happy-very:

Ever heard the quote,

Oh please don't throw me into the briar patch!

This is what you do with every extra red cent you give to Washington DC under any premise!

BTW: Under the Madison/Jefferson/Henry mix, you live and died by individual responsibility as this was the heart of it. Gov't wasn't there to wetnurse you if you fell down nor bail you out if you got stupid in business. You might consider that point sometime!
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
I guess the difference between you and I is you want to make everyone taxpayers (pay their fair share) with a "COMPLICATED" tax system and I want to make everyone non-taxpayers at the federal level with an "UNCOMPLICATED" tax system! Thought I'd borrow the very word you used.

You were right except you got your "complicated" and "uncomplicted" mixed up. EVERYONE should have to pay at the federal level.

Did you ever consider if they did pay their fair share that the gov't would get even more money and the welfare giveaways might become even more massive? They'd have more funds for earmarks and giveaways to buy votes with and to further entrench themselves. Ever give that any thought?
Do you enjoy the sport of "FEEDING DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS who think they are better at it!"
:happy-very:

You totally missed the point. If the welfare rats were required to pay their share then they would have incentive to get off their lazy butts, and maybe stop having kids they can't yet afford to care for without gov't assitance, and find more work (or a job at all!) and the result would be that they move up out of the poverty and welfare income bracket. Your theories about earmarks and giveaways is nothing more than that...theories. Have you ever given any thought to the fact that the government could do some good with that money? Or is the liberal mind so dedicated to the the mistrust of the current administration that something like that could never enter your mind?
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
Big A, you bash all the "welfare rats" to get off their lazy butts and find more minimun wage jobs to move up out of poverty and welfare to stop sucking funds from our Gov't, but I find it comical that Corperate welfare is acceptable to you.

Never do I want to hear again from my conservative friends about how brilliant capitalists are, how much they deserve their seven-figure salaries, and how government should keep its hands off the private economy.

The Wall Street titans have turned into a bunch of welfare clients. They are desperate to be bailed out by government from their own incompetence, and from the deregulatory regime for which they lobbied so hard. They have lost "confidence" in each other, you see, because none of these oh-so-wise captains of the universe has any idea what kinds of devalued securities sit in one another's portfolios.
Enter the federal government, the institution to which the wealthy are not supposed to pay capital gains or inheritance taxes.
Oh hell no, you don't expect these people to trade in their BMWs for Saturns, do you?
But if this near meltdown of capitalism doesn't encourage a lot of people to question the principles they have carried in their heads for the last three decades or so, nothing will.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Big A, you bash all the "welfare rats" to get off their lazy butts and find more minimun wage jobs to move up out of poverty and welfare to stop sucking funds from our Gov't, but I find it comical that Corperate welfare is acceptable to you.

Never do I want to hear again from my conservative friends about how brilliant capitalists are, how much they deserve their seven-figure salaries, and how government should keep its hands off the private economy.

The Wall Street titans have turned into a bunch of welfare clients. They are desperate to be bailed out by government from their own incompetence, and from the deregulatory regime for which they lobbied so hard. They have lost "confidence" in each other, you see, because none of these oh-so-wise captains of the universe has any idea what kinds of devalued securities sit in one another's portfolios.
Enter the federal government, the institution to which the wealthy are not supposed to pay capital gains or inheritance taxes.
Oh hell no, you don't expect these people to trade in their BMWs for Saturns, do you?
But if this near meltdown of capitalism doesn't encourage a lot of people to question the principles they have carried in their heads for the last three decades or so, nothing will.


How about option number three? No bailout for mortgage companies, no bailout for mortgage holders, and allow the market to drive the less efficient models out.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
How about option number three? No bailout for mortgage companies, no bailout for mortgage holders, and allow the market to drive the less efficient models out.

AMEN BROTHER AV!

End the welfare state which goes both ways!

Big,

I don't want federal gov't taking my money and doing "good things" with it at all. Leave that money with me at home and let me work on those "good things" with my State and local officals and my neighbors. Why send money to Washington DC where certain legislators by right of seniority or legislative manipulation can take tax dollars from me and my neighbors who have real and legit concerns/problems and give that money elsewhere because some lobbyist or interest group has positioned themselves at the seat of power to make things happen all for their own benefit. Perfect example is what AV himself pointed out above and God Bless him for it!

If you honestly look at gov't and what it does with our tax dollars via the legislative process, not only do they themselves create the very welfare class and statism for their own ends but they also by being bought and sold to the highest lobbyist bidder, create business monopolies for their corp. friends and then close out those markets for upstart companies who would be competitors. Who knows, had they not subsidized oil for example and help create a monopoly market for oil, we might have a competing energy source that today may have us free from sending our money to the Middle East to fund the very people who hate us. Ford, GM, Dodge and the late American Motors loved the single point energy source because their produciton line was devoted to the lone internal combusiton engine powered by oil. Had there been 2, 3 , 4 different sources of energy for cars, these production lines would have to diversify and thus more capitial layout which effects profits. Good example is the cost of the hybrib over the standard internal combustion engine. Hybrids are only gaining ground not so much because of fuel prices but from the auto makers position they can make a few of these and it effects their CAFE standard fleet rating so that can continue to produce the same stuff of the other lines. Gov't can't afford high mileage vehicles because this would drop revenues from the gas excise tax. It's all intertwined and not in a good way either. Giving the gov't more money has shown a history that things only get worse for the meat and potatoe citizens that really drive this country and that is the Middle Class.

Have you ever given any thought to the fact that the government could do some good with that money?

Let's just consider what they've done elsewhere with our money.

1) Social Security? Now beside the fact that the gov't should not have ever gotten into this business to begin with, what have they done with the tax dollars collected? Thought of us first and foremost? Nope. Swapped SS dollars for federal IOU's and then spent that transferred that money into the general treasury and spent it. Opps, some of it on earmarks too! What would the situation be today had they naked that money at only 1% interest earned? Hell of a lot better than it is now obviously. And which party objected to what was being done with that moeny? None of the above is the correct answer.

2) Department of Energy? We're just rolling in cheap energy aren't we and talk about a real good national energy policy. We're the envy of the world and we are obligated nor controlled by no one when it comes to energy. No one can effect our economy with energy as we are an independent might! Brett correctly pointed out a VW diesel (sorry forgot the model) that get's very high mileage and you'd think a good national energy policy would have that car on the market right now. Instead, we have the dominate makes (monopoly again)holding that model off the market so they can sell lesser makes of their own in order to justify hybrids for example so they can manipulate the total fleet mileage to meet CAFE standards.

3) Department of Education? Rising test scores! Math and Science knowledge at an alltime high across the student spectrum. you really wanna go there?

4) Immigration? Again, you really wanna go there?

5) Economic? Again, something the gov't shouldn't be in the business of effecting one way or the other but look at what policy has done. The dollar is becoming a more debased currency everyday and a few weeks ago in Amsterdam, currency exchange with the dollar was halted over fears of the dollars lost strenght. Even worse, the gov't refuses to instill strenght back into the dollar by returning to the gold standard for example as even some moderate economists are starting to speak of all because this would grind the ability of the gov't to borrow and continue deficit spending to a halt. Let's devalue the dollar and force prices up so Congress and the President can continue this game. Again, there's earmarks involved!

We could go on forever.

As for earmark "theory" you might take some time out of your life to sitdown and read the Congressional record, the legislative agenda and the Federal Register before you call such things only theory. Look for such things as amending resolutions and bill attachments and here's how it works.

Congressman "A" proposes legislation for a highway bill for East Egypt but he needs more votes to get it to pass. He goes to Congressman "B", "C" and "D" for their support but "B" wants a farm subsidy for Corp. Agribusiness "Z" in South Egypt, Congressman "C" wants a subsidy for Defense Contractor "W" in North Egypt and Congressman "D" wants a subsidy for Medical Research Corp. "Y" in West Egypt. (No offense or insult to Egypt either) All are attached or made amending resolutions to the parent bill and guess who not only signs on as co-sponsors, but then votes to pass the bill? Would they have without the attachments? What good came from this for the rest of the areas across America? None, but no problem, they have their Congressman do the same thing and when the money runs out, they just borrow it in effect from future taxpayers and that like it or not is a tax increase!

Can you walk across the street to your neighbor's house with a gun and demand money that you then take and give to your other neighbor to satisfy their own needs? Nope! It's called robbery and in fact armed robbery which is a serious felony. However, you believe you can elect a group of people and on your behalf have them do the same thing and because it's under the color of law, it's all perfectly legal and you'd even subscribe to the notion that it in no way violates the Law of God or Law of Nature (however you want to put it and you the one so worried about being able to pray) because it was done under the pretext of democracy and electoral process. It's the "AMERICAN" way! "Oh Lord, I don't come to you asking much, just give me my neighbor's stuff so I can do "good things" with it! Amen!"

Folks use to sit in the back of the bus too because of that same process but that sure as hell wasn't right, now was it?

But the absolute best line of all:

EVERYONE should have to pay at the federal level.

IMO those 9 words speak volumes! D, that sounds more a democrat than you do!

:rofl:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
and how government should keep its hands off the private economy.

D,
That's a pure fiction they want us to believe. Don't buy it for one moment. Large monopolistic Corp. America nurses on the same teet as the so-called welfare class. Their goal is to root the so-called welfare class out of the way so they have free reign with our tax dollars. There is no intent to eliminate the income tax and give the money back to the hard working Americans who earned it to begin with.


The Wall Street titans have turned into a bunch of welfare clients. They are desperate to be bailed out by government from their own incompetence, and from the deregulatory regime for which they lobbied so hard.

Preach It Brother! Pass the collection plate while your on a roll!
:happy-very:

Enter the federal government, the institution to which the wealthy are not supposed to pay capital gains or inheritance taxes.

No problem. I think someone earlier (a self proclaimed alledged conservative) said that with the new tax system, everyone pays! One step closer to Karl Marx's dream I guess!
:happy-very:
Karl would be proud of such an advocate who advances the idea that there is nothing wrong with the income tax, it only needs to be managed correctly! Would this apply to the other 9 planks as well?


But if this near meltdown of capitalism doesn't encourage a lot of people to question the principles they have carried in their heads for the last three decades or so, nothing will.

Is it really capitialism in the traditional sense or is it a hybridized mutant with 19th century European merchantilism mixed in with a good measure of 20th century Mussolini corporatism?

D,

I think, no wait, I know you are aware that what calls itself "conservative" today is not such in the traditional sense going back not only to paleo-conservatism or to 18th century classical liberal thougtht that gave birth to America and it's individualistic principles. That thought came forward to birth both paleo-conservative and paleo-liberal thought but then the very bridge between the 2 know as libertariansim which IMO takes the best of both worlds so to speak.

If the poltical of today's conservative and even today's liberal (think DLC and the sellout to world elite and hegemony under Clinton ie WTO, NAFTA) have been mutated, hybridized and corrupted, is it not also possible the same could be said of the economics that underlye these 2 companion, often sold as opposite modern political camps?

It is thought provoking and worth the read should you choose to take this mission.

This tape will self destruct in 5 seconds!
:wink2:
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
Big A, you bash all the "welfare rats" to get off their lazy butts and find more minimun wage jobs to move up out of poverty and welfare to stop sucking funds from our Gov't, but I find it comical that Corperate welfare is acceptable to you.

I didn't bother reading any of the posting after the excerpt above. I mean why bother when the very first sentence states a lie, or assumption if you will, about my position on something. Never in any of my posts have I said that I believe that "corporate welfare" is acceptable. What a circus

And WKMAC....I didn't even bother reading any of yours. Some days I'm just not in the mood or just don't have the patience to endure your lengthy rantings. If they stayed on point more it would help. :) Hell....one day I tried responding to one of your posts and I just put the whole thing in the quotation but when I tried to respond to it the board said their were "too many characters" or something like that. I barely had two sentences in. LOL!
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
How about option number three? No bailout for mortgage companies, no bailout for mortgage holders, and allow the market to drive the less efficient models out.

I totally agree with that. The mortgage companies should be ashamed of themselves for even being willing to offer loans under some of the terms and conditions they have. And the people that accept those loans.....they should feel even worse. Don't buy something you can't afford and never take a loan with a variable rate. It's that simple.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
I see greed in the mortgage companies and I see stupidity in the borrowers.

Neither should be rescued or rewarded!!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
And WKMAC....I didn't even bother reading any of yours. Some days I'm just not in the mood or just don't have the patience to endure your lengthy rantings. If they stayed on point more it would help. :) Hell....one day I tried responding to one of your posts and I just put the whole thing in the quotation but when I tried to respond to it the board said their were "too many characters" or something like that. I barely had two sentences in. LOL!

Now you know the secret to winning the debate here!

:rofl:
 
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