Home
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
Latest activity
Members
Current visitors
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Home
Forums
Brown Cafe Community Center
Current Events
So much for raising taxes on just the rich...
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 315538" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>D,</p><p> </p><p>What IMO hurts any general discussion about minimum wage is that in most cases it reduces itself down to a democrat verses republican or visa versa argument. Everybody does it because it is so easy to do and bad habits are hard to break. But sometimes it helps to step back and look at the whole process from a different angle and that is from a purely individual level.</p><p> </p><p>Minimum wage laws take away the individual worker the right to contract. It does because it takes away his/her ability to come into the free market at a lower cost that for him/her benefits them. Maybe you or I can't compete at that level because of our personal operating costs but why should by federal law these persons not be allowed to do so when by their own free will and knowledge and where no force or fraud exist enter the job market at those levels? I understand if people are allowed in mass to do this that this could effect us and our rates of pay over the longrun but it's not a one way street. These same employer/manufactures over time with a lesser paid workforce will also find one of 2 scenarios. </p><p> </p><p>1) Over time certain jobs because of conditions or risks will become harder and harder to fill with stable employees and the cost drain in other areas such as ever growing hiring costs because of turnover and increasing excess dollars spent of training and retraining become a drain. Are you thinking "Brown" at this point? Those employers will begin to have to spend ever greater amounts of money on internal gimmicks to get and retain employees that a better paid, better class of employee would not require. Better paid meaning better class also tends to equate with a lesser management needed workforce that even though the wage scale is higher, the risk of losing that wage means a more loyal and devoted workforce to the company and it's product or service. Retreating at once to the lowest common denominator is not in the best interest of longterm growth for a smart company.</p><p> </p><p>2) Going back to that lowest common cost denominator, let's say American business did that as a whole with the end of the minimum wage laws. Let's say across the board we had massive wage deflation but the cost of goods and services stayed the same as American business just got greedy. Who could buy the products and services? Who could afford it? Who would continue to work any job if working a whole week wouldn't even fill the gas tank to drive to work? </p><p> </p><p>Let's say you are working a job where 3.5 hours a day is guaranteed at $9.00 per hour but from that comes out federal state and in some cases local income taxes, social security and medicare. Then on top of that you are paying $3.50 a gallon for gas and it takes 2 gallons a day to come to work so take off another $7 a day just for gas. That $31.50 gross a day is most likely down to around $15 net so for 3.5 hours work you may be clearing $15 net. </p><p> </p><p>What's the incentive to come to work when you just don't feel like it? What's the downside to losing this job? What's the risk of coming to work and only going through the motions and not doing a good job of that even? LOL! Does this all sound so familar?</p><p> </p><p>OK, what about the employer who hires that low wage worker? Look at UPS for example. How many extra employees are carried on the payroll just to cover the shear numbers of employees who don't show up to work from shift to shift? Why did the contract even need to address a call in list for each sort operation to compensate for absent emplyees? </p><p> </p><p>And speaking of employers, do you or I or anyone else have a right to go to our neighbor and tell them what the minimum is they must pay to have their grass mowed, oil changed, trash collected. I mean they are employer's in the sense they are hiring someone else to provide a service on their behalf. What if I came to you and said from here on out you mush pay $100 an hour to the 19 year old kid at the local "Quicky Oil Change" and got a law making it so under the guise of minimum requirements? If we tell UPS, Walmart, 3M, McDonald's or Joe's Hardware via gov't mandate that there is a wage minimum, how long before that concept trickles down to us in our person hire's?</p><p> </p><p>I understand and appreciate the basis from where you are coming from and your arguments but until we begin as nation to look at many of these issues from the individual perspective, we will IMO lose sight of just what is true freedom and liberty and why we continue to lose it on an ever increasing level. Minimum wage is most likley not going anywhere anytime soon but when I look at laws I look at them from the standpoint of how they would effect 2 individuals interacting with one another. If there is a scenario where one individual acting in his own free will without force or fraud could be harmed, then at the very least it should not be mandatory enforcement by the gov't and thus become something one if free to volunteer for or can opt to stay out. </p><p> </p><p>JMO.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 315538, member: 2189"] D, What IMO hurts any general discussion about minimum wage is that in most cases it reduces itself down to a democrat verses republican or visa versa argument. Everybody does it because it is so easy to do and bad habits are hard to break. But sometimes it helps to step back and look at the whole process from a different angle and that is from a purely individual level. Minimum wage laws take away the individual worker the right to contract. It does because it takes away his/her ability to come into the free market at a lower cost that for him/her benefits them. Maybe you or I can't compete at that level because of our personal operating costs but why should by federal law these persons not be allowed to do so when by their own free will and knowledge and where no force or fraud exist enter the job market at those levels? I understand if people are allowed in mass to do this that this could effect us and our rates of pay over the longrun but it's not a one way street. These same employer/manufactures over time with a lesser paid workforce will also find one of 2 scenarios. 1) Over time certain jobs because of conditions or risks will become harder and harder to fill with stable employees and the cost drain in other areas such as ever growing hiring costs because of turnover and increasing excess dollars spent of training and retraining become a drain. Are you thinking "Brown" at this point? Those employers will begin to have to spend ever greater amounts of money on internal gimmicks to get and retain employees that a better paid, better class of employee would not require. Better paid meaning better class also tends to equate with a lesser management needed workforce that even though the wage scale is higher, the risk of losing that wage means a more loyal and devoted workforce to the company and it's product or service. Retreating at once to the lowest common denominator is not in the best interest of longterm growth for a smart company. 2) Going back to that lowest common cost denominator, let's say American business did that as a whole with the end of the minimum wage laws. Let's say across the board we had massive wage deflation but the cost of goods and services stayed the same as American business just got greedy. Who could buy the products and services? Who could afford it? Who would continue to work any job if working a whole week wouldn't even fill the gas tank to drive to work? Let's say you are working a job where 3.5 hours a day is guaranteed at $9.00 per hour but from that comes out federal state and in some cases local income taxes, social security and medicare. Then on top of that you are paying $3.50 a gallon for gas and it takes 2 gallons a day to come to work so take off another $7 a day just for gas. That $31.50 gross a day is most likely down to around $15 net so for 3.5 hours work you may be clearing $15 net. What's the incentive to come to work when you just don't feel like it? What's the downside to losing this job? What's the risk of coming to work and only going through the motions and not doing a good job of that even? LOL! Does this all sound so familar? OK, what about the employer who hires that low wage worker? Look at UPS for example. How many extra employees are carried on the payroll just to cover the shear numbers of employees who don't show up to work from shift to shift? Why did the contract even need to address a call in list for each sort operation to compensate for absent emplyees? And speaking of employers, do you or I or anyone else have a right to go to our neighbor and tell them what the minimum is they must pay to have their grass mowed, oil changed, trash collected. I mean they are employer's in the sense they are hiring someone else to provide a service on their behalf. What if I came to you and said from here on out you mush pay $100 an hour to the 19 year old kid at the local "Quicky Oil Change" and got a law making it so under the guise of minimum requirements? If we tell UPS, Walmart, 3M, McDonald's or Joe's Hardware via gov't mandate that there is a wage minimum, how long before that concept trickles down to us in our person hire's? I understand and appreciate the basis from where you are coming from and your arguments but until we begin as nation to look at many of these issues from the individual perspective, we will IMO lose sight of just what is true freedom and liberty and why we continue to lose it on an ever increasing level. Minimum wage is most likley not going anywhere anytime soon but when I look at laws I look at them from the standpoint of how they would effect 2 individuals interacting with one another. If there is a scenario where one individual acting in his own free will without force or fraud could be harmed, then at the very least it should not be mandatory enforcement by the gov't and thus become something one if free to volunteer for or can opt to stay out. JMO. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Home
Forums
Brown Cafe Community Center
Current Events
So much for raising taxes on just the rich...
Top