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tieguy
Banned
Called a poster and idiot an now threw in the standard liberal defense line about listening to limbaugh. Your sinking fast unionman.
DS
Fenderbender
The whole problem was when administration let the banks decide who was elgible for a home loan.This was irresponsible in that some first time home buyers were led to believe they had no worries.
In Canada you have to have a substantial down payment (25%)?
but it sure helped us here.
Its all greed.
In Canada you have to have a substantial down payment (25%)?
but it sure helped us here.
Its all greed.
Babagounj
Strength through joy
That is not a picture of your messiah;
that is Alfred E Newman of Mad Magazine mocking your messiah and his foolish message.
Or do you not know of Mad Magazine? What me worry ?
I drive a radioless truck during Rush's broadcast times, thus how can you assume that I listen to him ?
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chev
Nightcrawler
Aww, is someone a wittle testy?The way investments were rated was definitely part of the problem. This video gives one of the most straightforward explanations of the factors involved I've heard so far.
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wkmac
Well-Known Member
DS,
Our problem (American) is a bit more complex than what you described. A much more major factor was politicians on both sides of the isle, in one way or another, saw the idea of home ownership as the old proverbial "chicken in every pot" and thus for political gains at election time, gov't policy was twister to in effect push much of this type of behavior and bad economics.
Even today in the latest stimulus bill, there are provisions to in effect, re-accelerate the real estate bubble that would/will make the bubble bigger and push the problem further into the future to blow up later and even worse. Does Obama and the democrats get this blame? Well yeah because they pushed the overall package but to their own demise, this covers up the real culprit behind this and it's republican Senator Johnny Isakson whose personal empire was building a major real estate company in the Atlanta Georgia area. He initailly pushed for a $15,000 tax credit for first time home buyers but this figure ended up at $8k in the final product. And again all to the glee of Atlanta Real Estate folks as seen here and here. Notice in the 2nd item where FHA, Freddie and Fannie will go back to loaning 125% of home values? Seems to me they are priming the very pump again that caused a lot of this mess.
During the Bush years, republicans carried the water of excess while democrats loaded the buckets but hid behind republicans to avoid blame. Now those roles have reversed and big gov't republicans can inflict their own damaged as Sen. Isakson IMO demonstrates. He pushes hard and gets in the end most of his way but when passage of the end product is assured by democrat votes alone, he gets life both ways and can vote against for the record but in truth, his actions are very much a part of what will go down as blame on democrats and President Obama.
You can blame banks and yes you'd not be wrong for doing such but the real driving mechanism behind this are politicians out for the easy score and then business interests who understand the monopoly or cartel effects of these actions and get behind it all. I wonder how many UPSer's would vocally voice objection if 55 Glenlake announced on Monday a 100% across the board pay increase for all UPS employees? I say very few as they would short side view all this to their own self interests but big picture ignore the fact that set economic principles and reality clearly show this action is not sustainable for any lenght of time and would in the end bankrupt the company. The only reason gov't can do this is they hide the truth by having the power to either borrow or print money that increases the debt burden of our future or decreases the value of our purchasing dollar with the assured inflation that is to come. Either way, the working stiff gets screwed in the end while the so-called defenders of the "working man" are in reality actually helping the richer to get richer if you will.
America once had a similar idea of 10% to 25% down and the more you put down, the lower that interest rate went. Also with the virtual free money out there, historical renters turned to homeownership not like was expected but rather with a "temporary living arrangement" mindset and once the conditions they had didn't suit them, the loan was nothing more than a new fancy rent mechanism so they just stopped the payments and waited for the landlord to kick them out and they just moved to another apartment complex to start the cycle all over again. In some cases, maybe even to another gov't program to buy another house. But these early foreclosures were hidden as the "Carlton Sheets" wanna-bes flocked to courthouses around America giving top-dollar for foreclosed properties because the bubble had yet to fully expand. Banks were happy because they had buyers either way. Finally the bubble overheated and popped!
Seems now with hidden republican help, they want to restart that process all over again in the hopes they (democrats) might politically gain from it all. This also explains why Barney 'the dinosaur" Frank slammed the door on Ron Paul the other day when Ron was doing his usual drilling of Federal Reserve pukes like Bernacke. Funny how dems cheered Ron on when they were out of power but then there's that word hypocrisy again!
JMO!
tieguy
Banned
My my my I would not know what? You sure do get frustrated and resort to personal attacks quickly do you not? Why not leave the frustration you find here. Maybe go to some leninist support group meeting and leave this site for people that can argue politics without getting their panties all bunched up?
wkmac
Well-Known Member
That was a very good video Jones. Good find!
As I watched the video, 2 things came to mind. First was the banking system itself and what is known as Fractional Reserve banking. At the Wiki link, the best and easiest understanding for most people to grasp is found in the section entitled History and how the old gold and silversmiths use to create what were once known as Promissory notes. This premise is why also on your dollar bill it sez "Federal Reserve NOTE". But a true pormissory note requires 4 major elements to be a valid note at law.
1) A payor
2) A redeemer
3) An amount
4) A due date
Federal Reserve Notes otherwise known a FRNs initially had this when our money was gold and silver backed. The payor was the Fed. or US Treasury, the redeemer was the person holding the note for redeeming, the amout was the face amount on the note and the due date was when presented. Here's a 1928' Federal Reserve Note that meets all the conditions of being a true promissory note.
But such type money presented a major problem for both bank and State. For the bank, it created a limiting factor on debt creation (profit limits) and for the State itself, it's means of operation were confined to raising money mostly by taxation alone and not via the magic of debt creation (an the hidden taxation of inflation) as we see today. By erasing this limits on our money, both the bank and the State benefit from this relationship as the State avoids a pay as you go system and the banks via debt creation can increase profit potentials to almost endless levels until the inflated dollars become worthless in value.
Under a limited economic system say for example of gold and silver backed, there was always a kind of value ceiling that kept prices low and in order for goods and services to move about, the pressure was on downward pricing instead of a continuos upward pricing as we've seen in America since 1933' when FDR outlawed gold and then the nail in the coffin in 1971' when Nixon closed the gold window for good. Both national debt, private debt and inflation have risen in lock step in ever growing rates and at the same time, these false economies as the video shows come into play.
OK, the 2nd part in this deal is the State itself and we kinda covered some of those benefits above but here's the real kicker IMO. People scream that banks and Wall Street aren't regulated and that is absolute bogus on it's face. The real problem is gov't policy creating a false economic driving people towards these markets but that's another story in itself. The real problem is the very regulated agencies overseeing these operations are in a catch 22. First, this bureaucracy is a completely false picture in that the very thing regulated in truth does and always has controlled that which regulates it. Just look as the principle enforcement officer of our economy in the Sec. of Treasury and how many of them no matter the party in power come right from Wall Street or Big Banking itself. If a major UPS manager was made Sec. of Transportation, is there anyone here who wouldn't expect some favorable outcomes in law for UPS? Then why are we blind when gov't picks a banker or wall street person to run our economy and it seems only Wall Street or Banks end up winning? I know that sounds a bit popularist simplism but there is a bit of truth in that.
The State now on the one hand must regulate this major entity that has "STATE PLANNED" control over the economy but at the same time, this industry is also a major tax resource in both corp. and capital gains taxation collected for the State itself. As I watched the video, a background thought to all those money making processes was the profits and then the State revenue derived from those profits. So on the one hand, the State has a real money maker but on the otherhand they have a regulator interest. And in a political environment where gov't is spending huge sums of money and increasing ever growing debt levels, what are the chances they spank that money maker 
to correct it's bad ways? The answer is those 2 infamous cowpokes named "Slim & None!"
Now after the hit & run crime has been committed, we want to in effect give the bad driver a better car in which to advance his list of victims via the so-called gov't regulatory oversight. These gangsters if you will have used gov't and the bureaucratic process to cartelize and monopolize the market place and our answer is to just give them more as they cry their plea!
Everytime we throw Brer Rabbit in the regulated Briar patch he always gets loose to do more damage because we've yet to realize he created the briar patch and actually lives there. Instead of gov't planning an economy around itself like some business plan, it should step back, vastly downsize itself and even let Wall Street and banking become a wide open wild west. Yep, you heard me. Let that sucker go in whatever way it wants to go by removing all gov't sanction and oversight but at the same time kill it's monopoly status on the economy and let Americans themselves create there own economies as they see fit and to their own needs. I'd bet in short order, the whole Wall street/Banking cartel (a false market in itself) would almost vanish as only the badest gunfighters would enter Wall Street and then they'd just be killing each other and the rest of us would just avoid that part of town anyway. Did you ever ask yourself why is it that the average person can't go directly to a company and buy their stock from them rather than the Wall Street middle man? Who gave Wall Street that monopoly power in the first place?
What happened to a buyer and seller working directly without some gov't sanctioned middle man? Funny how some people still actually call this monopolized practice laissez faire, free market economics!
The video is very much correct on what happened but to overlook the State itself in all of this and how the State helps to actually forment this problem will only lead to the problem coming back again & again & again and each time it will be worse and worse and worse!
Here's something to also think about if you truly believe in helping the poor and the working man. A question was posed on Yahoo Answers about what someone should do with $100kand the quick answer was to buy gold and that's fine. But a further explaination was given and you can find historical data to back this up all over yahoo and google searches. Here's the answer.
Now why would that ounce of gold piece go further today than in 1920'? Because look at the advancements in production efficency, worker productivity and product advancements themselves. In a specie backed economy, the consumer, the poor, the worker profit from the economy as this is the true supply side, trickle down economics working for the good of the common man but the Reagan republicans backstabbed on their deal to return to gold and silver backed monies and thus the heart of this concept died before it even got started. Just a footnote on comparing a $20 gold piece to an ounce of gold. A dollar of gold is 24.75 grains in weight and multiply 24.75 x 20 = 495.00 Because coinage has a small element of other alloy, the 495 is not all gold but a true Troy oz. is 480 grains in measure so the $20 dollar gold piece by weight is a troy ounce in gold so the comparison of $20 1920' gold coin to an ounce today is a equal comparison.
With a fiat currency economy with fractional reserve banking, the poor, the common man lose everytime and the winners are the State and big Business itself via the banking monopoly as they get first dibs on new money and we working types and the poor get it way after the fact after inflation has already eroded it's value. Even Bush's TARP deal and Obama's stimulus will do the same as preferred customers of each adminstration will get the money first when it has it's highest value. We poor smucks come later!
Maybe it's time we realize and admit that even Hitler Was a Keynesian!
As I watched the video, 2 things came to mind. First was the banking system itself and what is known as Fractional Reserve banking. At the Wiki link, the best and easiest understanding for most people to grasp is found in the section entitled History and how the old gold and silversmiths use to create what were once known as Promissory notes. This premise is why also on your dollar bill it sez "Federal Reserve NOTE". But a true pormissory note requires 4 major elements to be a valid note at law.
1) A payor
2) A redeemer
3) An amount
4) A due date
Federal Reserve Notes otherwise known a FRNs initially had this when our money was gold and silver backed. The payor was the Fed. or US Treasury, the redeemer was the person holding the note for redeeming, the amout was the face amount on the note and the due date was when presented. Here's a 1928' Federal Reserve Note that meets all the conditions of being a true promissory note.
But such type money presented a major problem for both bank and State. For the bank, it created a limiting factor on debt creation (profit limits) and for the State itself, it's means of operation were confined to raising money mostly by taxation alone and not via the magic of debt creation (an the hidden taxation of inflation) as we see today. By erasing this limits on our money, both the bank and the State benefit from this relationship as the State avoids a pay as you go system and the banks via debt creation can increase profit potentials to almost endless levels until the inflated dollars become worthless in value.
Under a limited economic system say for example of gold and silver backed, there was always a kind of value ceiling that kept prices low and in order for goods and services to move about, the pressure was on downward pricing instead of a continuos upward pricing as we've seen in America since 1933' when FDR outlawed gold and then the nail in the coffin in 1971' when Nixon closed the gold window for good. Both national debt, private debt and inflation have risen in lock step in ever growing rates and at the same time, these false economies as the video shows come into play.
OK, the 2nd part in this deal is the State itself and we kinda covered some of those benefits above but here's the real kicker IMO. People scream that banks and Wall Street aren't regulated and that is absolute bogus on it's face. The real problem is gov't policy creating a false economic driving people towards these markets but that's another story in itself. The real problem is the very regulated agencies overseeing these operations are in a catch 22. First, this bureaucracy is a completely false picture in that the very thing regulated in truth does and always has controlled that which regulates it. Just look as the principle enforcement officer of our economy in the Sec. of Treasury and how many of them no matter the party in power come right from Wall Street or Big Banking itself. If a major UPS manager was made Sec. of Transportation, is there anyone here who wouldn't expect some favorable outcomes in law for UPS? Then why are we blind when gov't picks a banker or wall street person to run our economy and it seems only Wall Street or Banks end up winning? I know that sounds a bit popularist simplism but there is a bit of truth in that.
The State now on the one hand must regulate this major entity that has "STATE PLANNED" control over the economy but at the same time, this industry is also a major tax resource in both corp. and capital gains taxation collected for the State itself. As I watched the video, a background thought to all those money making processes was the profits and then the State revenue derived from those profits. So on the one hand, the State has a real money maker
but on the otherhand they have a regulator interest. And in a political environment where gov't is spending huge sums of money and increasing ever growing debt levels, what are the chances they spank that money maker to correct it's bad ways? The answer is those 2 infamous cowpokes named "Slim & None!"Now after the hit & run crime has been committed, we want to in effect give the bad driver a better car in which to advance his list of victims via the so-called gov't regulatory oversight. These gangsters if you will have used gov't and the bureaucratic process to cartelize and monopolize the market place and our answer is to just give them more as they cry their plea!
Everytime we throw Brer Rabbit in the regulated Briar patch he always gets loose to do more damage because we've yet to realize he created the briar patch and actually lives there. Instead of gov't planning an economy around itself like some business plan, it should step back, vastly downsize itself and even let Wall Street and banking become a wide open wild west. Yep, you heard me. Let that sucker go in whatever way it wants to go by removing all gov't sanction and oversight but at the same time kill it's monopoly status on the economy and let Americans themselves create there own economies as they see fit and to their own needs. I'd bet in short order, the whole Wall street/Banking cartel (a false market in itself) would almost vanish as only the badest gunfighters would enter Wall Street and then they'd just be killing each other and the rest of us would just avoid that part of town anyway. Did you ever ask yourself why is it that the average person can't go directly to a company and buy their stock from them rather than the Wall Street middle man? Who gave Wall Street that monopoly power in the first place?
What happened to a buyer and seller working directly without some gov't sanctioned middle man? Funny how some people still actually call this monopolized practice laissez faire, free market economics!The video is very much correct on what happened but to overlook the State itself in all of this and how the State helps to actually forment this problem will only lead to the problem coming back again & again & again and each time it will be worse and worse and worse!
Here's something to also think about if you truly believe in helping the poor and the working man. A question was posed on Yahoo Answers about what someone should do with $100kand the quick answer was to buy gold and that's fine. But a further explaination was given and you can find historical data to back this up all over yahoo and google searches. Here's the answer.
Now why would that ounce of gold piece go further today than in 1920'? Because look at the advancements in production efficency, worker productivity and product advancements themselves. In a specie backed economy, the consumer, the poor, the worker profit from the economy as this is the true supply side, trickle down economics working for the good of the common man but the Reagan republicans backstabbed on their deal to return to gold and silver backed monies and thus the heart of this concept died before it even got started. Just a footnote on comparing a $20 gold piece to an ounce of gold. A dollar of gold is 24.75 grains in weight and multiply 24.75 x 20 = 495.00 Because coinage has a small element of other alloy, the 495 is not all gold but a true Troy oz. is 480 grains in measure so the $20 dollar gold piece by weight is a troy ounce in gold so the comparison of $20 1920' gold coin to an ounce today is a equal comparison.
With a fiat currency economy with fractional reserve banking, the poor, the common man lose everytime and the winners are the State and big Business itself via the banking monopoly as they get first dibs on new money and we working types and the poor get it way after the fact after inflation has already eroded it's value. Even Bush's TARP deal and Obama's stimulus will do the same as preferred customers of each adminstration will get the money first when it has it's highest value. We poor smucks come later!
Maybe it's time we realize and admit that even Hitler Was a Keynesian!
wkmac
Well-Known Member
My vote for "post of the month" in the most absurd catagory!
My public thanks to Jagger and his icons above. They just worked to perfectly to pass them up for this!
tieguy
Banned
Nothing like starting a day with a real rib splitter when you consider the source for the above statement!
My vote for "post of the month" in the most absurd catagory!
My public thanks to Jagger and his icons above. They just worked to perfectly to pass them up for this!
thanks I couldn't resist.
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